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As I was planning on my next conversion project for my IG Veterans, a thought occurred to me as I was browsing various areas for old Necromunda parts; why don't SMG's exist in this universe? How come there isn't a weapon called a Stubmachinegun? Is this too practical for the Imperium, or is there potential for this to exist in the 40k setting, and if so, how?

Discuss!

G.A

There's the stub carbine that the mechanicus uses. Carbines are pretty close to submachine guns depending on the model.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Stubcarbine

And I guess the reason we don't see them often is because the Mechanicum has them and they don't like to share.

Sorry, I should have disclosed that I am aware of the Stubcarbine that Skitarii Sicarians use; what I'm looking for is a reason or evidence to justify the existence of an SMG designed for human use in 40k that is fairly ubiquitos, much like an Autogun.

I'd guess it's because, for one, I can't imagine firearms are legal for citizens to own in the imperium. Stub guns are described as being mashed together and poorly made, so I imagine the citizens themselves are making them. Since the entire imperium has a hard time inventing a new kind of toaster, I can't imagine there would be very many criminals with the knowledge to make a working submachine gun.

I thought the hotshot lasgun with its rapid-fire capabilities had the role of SMG, no? If you are specifically looking for projectile-based weaponry, maybe Ork-shootas come close, depending on their size.

Vitali Advenil wrote:I'd guess it's because, for one, I can't imagine firearms are legal for citizens to own in the imperium. Stub guns are described as being mashed together and poorly made, so I imagine the citizens themselves are making them. Since the entire imperium has a hard time inventing a new kind of toaster, I can't imagine there would be very many criminals with the knowledge to make a working submachine gun.

Imperial Citizens have no rights, yes. That sure as hell doesn't mean most people don't have at least an Autopistol or Stub Gun bought from the black market or cobbled together. It's by that information that I theorise that an Imperial made weapon exists that can be acquired by smugglers and sold across planets in the same manner as a Autogun, Lasgun or Shotgun.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:I thought the hotshot lasgun with its rapid-fire capabilities had the role of SMG, no? If you are specifically looking for projectile-based weaponry, maybe Ork-shootas come close, depending on their size.

The Hotshot Lasgun or an Ork Shoota isn't the size of an SMG, though - Submachineguns also typically chamber pistol rounds, so if such a weapon were to exist, it would look a lot like an extended Autopistol.

Autopistols are also said to have automatic capabilities similar to a compact SMG. I just wonder if a middle ground weapon between the Pistol and the Rifle exists, or could exist.

What's the difference between an autogun, like the ones of the genestealer cult, and an SMG ?
MP5 are smg and I would put them in the "autogun" class.

Probably for the same reasons that real-world SMGs barely exist anymore and have mostly been replaced by short-barreled rifles.

And assuming you could fluff out enough justification for a submachine-gun what profile/rules would you give it?

If it were Necromunda I'd give it maybe S3 range 0-4short 4-12 long, (-1 to hit long range) 1 susfire dice and ammo roll of 5+
And it'd be on the Delaque, and Vansaar house weapons lists.

In a d6 system there is also not a huge amount of room mechanically for them.

godardc wrote:What's the difference between an autogun, like the ones of the genestealer cult, and an SMG ?
MP5 are smg and I would put them in the "autogun" class.

An Autogun is more like a rifle type weapon - certainly too long to be classed as an SMG if you ask me. An SMG in modern terms is a carbine type weapon chambered to fire pistol cartridges. An Autogun is more like an assault rifle, more or less.

Peregrine wrote:Probably for the same reasons that real-world SMGs barely exist anymore and have mostly been replaced by short-barreled rifles.

Forgive me for not knowing, but could you elaborate what these reasons are for me?

From what I've gathered, it's about Assault Rifles having a longer effective range and better stopping power. Even so, SMG's still have a purpose for CQB - ideal for Necromunda style combat.

theCrowe wrote:And assuming you could fluff out enough justification for a submachine-gun what profile/rules would you give it?

If it were Necromunda I'd give it maybe S3 range 0-4short 4-12 long, (-1 to hit long range) 1 susfire dice and ammo roll of 5+
And it'd be on the Delaque, and Vansaar house weapons lists.

Damn, I wish I played Necromunda...

I wouldn't write rules for them in 40k either; currently I'm working on a new game for 40k that I might try and factor them in to. Not much point in breaking down my ideas here with no rules context.

Nevelon wrote:In a d6 system there is also not a huge amount of room mechanically for them.

This is also the other reason - the Shotgun is practically what the SMG would be anyway in 40k, in terms of rules.

Bolt 'pistols', despite the 'pistol' nomenclature, are essentially smgs. Small, compact, rapid fire (capable of three round bursts.. wth, well, bolt rounds).

This is generally true for all 'pistols' thst you see in the game.

Imperial armour v8 had a big cutaway section on autpistols, and what is pictured, and what it described was essentially an uzi smg.

In any case, smgs are already basically obsolete with modern carbines and assault rifles...

Have you looked into FFG's Dark Heresy, Only War, and Rogue Trader splatbooks?

Dark Heresy 1st Edition's "Inquisitor's Handbook" is probably your best bet to find a stub/auto weapon that fits your description.

I'd say Range 12, Strength 3, AP - and Assault 3 would be a reasonable representation of such a weapon.

And, as evidence by the Sten and the Uzi, it doesn't take a lot of technical sophistication to make such a weapon. Heck., the Polish underground managed to make Sten equivalents in hidden workshops during the German occupation.

 General Annoyance wrote:
As I was planning on my next conversion project for my IG Veterans, a thought occurred to me as I was browsing various areas for old Necromunda parts; why don't SMG's exist in this universe? How come there isn't a weapon called a Stubmachinegun? Is this too practical for the Imperium, or is there potential for this to exist in the 40k setting, and if so, how?

Discuss!

G.A

Well, Bolters basically fit the bill, they certainly generally handle like submachine guns most ways they're portrayed.

That said, there are submachinegun equivalents, there's just no reason to differentiate them rules-wise. There are autopistols and las-carbines that absolutely would fit the definition of a submachinegun, but they really are just generally defined as either a pistol or rifle and are all S3 AP- (which covers everything from handguns to large caliber rifles). If one looks at the Steel Legion Imperial Guard line, they look very much like they have submachinegun-ish Lasguns, with MP40/AKU style folding stocks and short barrels that could be considered SMG or short barreled rifle equivalents.

Jefffar wrote:
I'd say Range 12, Strength 3, AP - and Assault 3 would be a reasonable representation of such a weapon.

And, as evidence by the Sten and the Uzi, it doesn't take a lot of technical sophistication to make such a weapon. Heck., the Polish underground managed to make Sten equivalents in hidden workshops during the German occupation.

In the old Necromunda rules they had pretty much the same rules as a las rifle. but with less penetration, so your rules seems to perfectly match (it or making it rapid fire 2 maybe )

Really, if you look at the size of pistols for most factions in 40k, they'd be SMG sized firearms to you and I.

Now I know it's probably modelling constraints and general heroic proportions, but I feel it fits the over-the-top killyness theme of 40k if their 'pistols' are actually closer to sub-machine guns.

The Autopistol is commonly portrayed as a Submachinegun rather than a semi-auto pistol. At least with FFG and Forgeworld:

 Unusual Suspect wrote:
Have you looked into FFG's Dark Heresy, Only War, and Rogue Trader splatbooks?

Dark Heresy 1st Edition's "Inquisitor's Handbook" is probably your best bet to find a stub/auto weapon that fits your description.

I've read into most of them and I don't remember any specifically off the top of my head. I believe the Autopistol is designed to fill the role of SMG.

 General Annoyance wrote:
Forgive me for not knowing, but could you elaborate what these reasons are for me?

From what I've gathered, it's about Assault Rifles having a longer effective range and better stopping power. Even so, SMG's still have a purpose for CQB - ideal for Necromunda style combat.

IIRC it's that rifle-caliber carbines are almost as compact and maneuverable as SMGs in close quarters, but keep the power and range advantages of a rifle over pistol-caliber weapons. So SMGs are pretty much limited to the rare police and civilian situations where you need a small and concealable weapon, or you want an automatic weapon without the overpenetration problem of rifle-caliber bullets in populated areas. And since the 40k IP tends to focus on battles, not police arresting a drug dealer in a crowded apartment building, SMGs should probably continue to be rare.

 KiloFiX wrote:
The Autopistol is commonly portrayed as a Submachinegun rather than a semi-auto pistol. At least with FFG and Forgeworld:

Yup, semi auto pistols fit into the stub gun category along with revolvers. The SMG is an autopistol.

Unusual Suspect wrote:Have you looked into FFG's Dark Heresy, Only War, and Rogue Trader splatbooks?

Dark Heresy 1st Edition's "Inquisitor's Handbook" is probably your best bet to find a stub/auto weapon that fits your description.

I have not - I'll make sure to go digging and see if such a weapon was ever mentioned. Cheers

Vaktathi wrote:Well, Bolters basically fit the bill, they certainly generally handle like submachine guns most ways they're portrayed.

That said, there are submachinegun equivalents, there's just no reason to differentiate them rules-wise. There are autopistols and las-carbines that absolutely would fit the definition of a submachinegun, but they really are just generally defined as either a pistol or rifle and are all S3 AP- (which covers everything from handguns to large caliber rifles). If one looks at the Steel Legion Imperial Guard line, they look very much like they have submachinegun-ish Lasguns, with MP40/AKU style folding stocks and short barrels that could be considered SMG or short barreled rifle equivalents.

From what I've gathered, Bolters are very large weapons with a high amount of recoil. But I guess neither of those are a problem in the hands of a Space Marine.

And yes, the Mars Pattern Lasgun does have a wire stock. Overall though, I think they're still long enough to be classed as rifles, although I haven't yet done a size comparison between some of my own Steel Legion models and Cadians.

Peregrine wrote:IIRC it's that rifle-caliber carbines are almost as compact and maneuverable as SMGs in close quarters, but keep the power and range advantages of a rifle over pistol-caliber weapons. So SMGs are pretty much limited to the rare police and civilian situations where you need a small and concealable weapon, or you want an automatic weapon without the overpenetration problem of rifle-caliber bullets in populated areas. And since the 40k IP tends to focus on battles, not police arresting a drug dealer in a crowded apartment building, SMGs should probably continue to be rare.

Thanks for clearing that up for me. I reckoned that such weapons probably wouldn't be something you'd see among the ranks of the Imperial Guard, but perhaps a common sight amongst gangers due to the typical close quarters fights they'd get into.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
Really, if you look at the size of pistols for most factions in 40k, they'd be SMG sized firearms to you and I.

Now I know it's probably modelling constraints and general heroic proportions, but I feel it fits the over-the-top killyness theme of 40k if their 'pistols' are actually closer to sub-machine guns.

KiloFiX wrote:The Autopistol is commonly portrayed as a Submachinegun rather than a semi-auto pistol. At least with FFG and Forgeworld:

Tactical_Spam wrote:I've read into most of them and I don't remember any specifically off the top of my head. I believe the Autopistol is designed to fill the role of SMG.

insaniak wrote:Yup, semi auto pistols fit into the stub gun category along with revolvers. The SMG is an autopistol.

Thank you all for clarifying this to me! I realised after the first few statements that I'd read an article about Autopistols already, where it stated they are capable of automatic fire. In addition, a couple of known patterns such as the Voss pattern featured wire stocks similar to the Mars Lasgun - pretty much the SMG/machine pistol type weapon I was looking for!

So now my only question is this - what do we all reckon about these on civilian type models, qualifying as SMGs?



Too futuristic looking? Not plausible next to the common Autopistol? Perhaps a bit of both?

Submachineguns are also called machine pistols. They are typically shorter than rifles, but often as heavy. They fire up to 30 pistol rounds. So, high rate of fire, lower velocity, shorter range. Good for urban combat, and Special Forces. Not great for open country. Which means a squad still needs longer ranged weapons. They were popular for adding firepower to WW2 squads equipped with bolt action rifles. 40k never seemed to adopt them. Even Arbites carry shotguns and bolters.

The Assault rifle replaced both rifles and submachineguns. They fire a round that is more powerful and higher velocity than a pistol round. But, not as powerful as a full size rifle. And, they are capable of fully automatic fire. So, a better compromise between a submachinegun and a full size rifle. With the added benefit of using a standard weapon and ammunition, rather than an odd weapon in a squad. Most every 40K two-handed standard weapons is an Assault rifle.

To portray a submachinegun in 40K would mean shorter range (18"), lower strength (S3), but some mechanic that makes them more likely to hit (Assault 2). Just guessing here.

 General Annoyance wrote:
As I was planning on my next conversion project for my IG Veterans, a thought occurred to me as I was browsing various areas for old Necromunda parts; why don't SMG's exist in this universe? How come there isn't a weapon called a Stubmachinegun? Is this too practical for the Imperium, or is there potential for this to exist in the 40k setting, and if so, how?

Discuss!

G.A

The Voss Pattern Autopistol is for all intents and purposes a submachine gun. The are even small "wire" type folding stocks for then. It's basically the grimdark Ingram.

The auto pistols you can get for the renegade/cultists from Forge World are of the Voss Pattern.

I would like to know how effective a 9mm submachine gun is against an ork now...

As far as I know 40k doesn't make much use of squad automatics or submachine guns because their basic rifles are flexible enough that you don't need dedicated weapons with a higher rate of fire.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
As far as I know 40k doesn't make much use of squad automatics or submachine guns because their basic rifles are flexible enough that you don't need dedicated weapons with a higher rate of fire.

The traitor militia on Vraks used their Voss Pattern Mark 10s in the same manner as a real world submachine gun. They even equipped them with tac slings and suppressors.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/File:Voss_Mk_X_modified.jpg

As mentioned, the auto-pistol covers the idea of the submachine gun effectively.

A submachine (in real world terms) is a short barreled select-fire weapon which fires a pistol cartridge. The addition of a stock and longer barrel increase the accuracy and range a bit (while being really simple to shoot because pistol cartridge recoil is normally fairly minimal - particularly in a 6-8 lb. weapon - as opposed to a 1.5 lb. handgun).

Advantages are compact size, weight reduction, short compact length (many submachine guns only have a 6-9" barrel), low recoil and convenient size for room-clearing and other MOUT/CQB style work.

With the increase in production of modern short barreled rifles (SBR's colloquially) - featuring barrels around 8-12", the SMG is frequently overlooked. Many companies produce SBRs which are identical in handling to standard carbines or rifles, fire the same ammunition, etc. These provide far more energy/damage when reducing a threat. There are downsides of course; terrible muzzle blast, difficult to tune on occasion, and the guns generally beat themselves to pieces.

For the end-user though, SBRs make sense. You use the same muscle memory and manual of arms for both an SBR and a standard carbine. The accuracy and lethality of the rifle is reduced when the barrel is cut, but it's still more than a hopped up pistol cartridge in many cases. You also stand a better chance of defeating cover, soft body armour and barricades with the rifle cartridge (and even these are mostly assault rifles, firing intermediate calibers).

FFG's Only War line can approximate it by giving the Compact upgrade to an autogun, I would imagine (although I've always considered 'upgrade' to be a bit of a misnomer for that one :p) I don't recall ever seeing any explicit SMGs, though.

 General Annoyance wrote:

godardc wrote:What's the difference between an autogun, like the ones of the genestealer cult, and an SMG ?
MP5 are smg and I would put them in the "autogun" class.

An Autogun is more like a rifle type weapon - certainly too long to be classed as an SMG if you ask me. An SMG in modern terms is a carbine type weapon chambered to fire pistol cartridges. An Autogun is more like an assault rifle, more or less.

Autogun is a catch-all term for anything from a SMG like the Vector or UMP45 to a battle rifle like the Mark 14 Enhanced Battle Rifle to an "assault rifle" like the M4 or AK47.