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I doubt that a 40K astartes could defeat a primarch, why you may ask? because a 40K astartes is essentially using the same things a 30K astartes did, their weapons and armor have not changed much if at all.

pm713 wrote:

Animus wrote:
I do believe that 40k Marines are the superiors of 30k Marines in general, as Guilliman corrected the faulty processes of Marine creation the Legions used, which had caused mental and physical weakness in the Legionnaires.
That said I do not think the average Marine of either era could stand up against a Primarch.
Though there are notable exceptions, such as Calgar, Mephiston and Draigo.

I doubt any of them could actually win against a Primarch without plot help.

I wouldn't be so sure.
Calgar has performed feats to match a Primarch. Defeating an Avatar, besting the Swarmlord barehanded, punching the head off An'ggrath, hefting a Necron pylon.
Mephiston has defeated Doombreed.
And of course Draigo beat Mortarion into the ground and shamed him.

Animus wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Animus wrote:
I do believe that 40k Marines are the superiors of 30k Marines in general, as Guilliman corrected the faulty processes of Marine creation the Legions used, which had caused mental and physical weakness in the Legionnaires.
That said I do not think the average Marine of either era could stand up against a Primarch.
Though there are notable exceptions, such as Calgar, Mephiston and Draigo.

I doubt any of them could actually win against a Primarch without plot help.

I wouldn't be so sure.
Calgar has performed feats to match a Primarch. Defeating an Avatar, besting the Swarmlord barehanded, punching the head off An'ggrath, hefting a Necron pylon.
Mephiston has defeated Doombreed.
And of course Draigo beat Mortarion into the ground and shamed him.

Beating an Avatar is nothing special, being strong enough to lift a thing isn't enough and he also got beaten to near death by the Swarmlord. Doombreed is a Daemon Prince and Draigo had the plot help I mentioned.

GOD EMPEROR OF MANKIND -> Primarchs-> Custodies-> Regular Astartes (both 30k or 40k)-> Sisters (power armor)-> Guardsmen.

The guy who needs a wheelbarrow for his giant Plasteel balls is on the right.

pm713 wrote:

Beating an Avatar is nothing special, being strong enough to lift a thing isn't enough and he also got beaten to near death by the Swarmlord. Doombreed is a Daemon Prince and Draigo had the plot help I mentioned.

Beating an Avatar was something Fulgrim did, and he didn't do it like it was nothing.
Lifting a pylon makes him very strong indeed. One of Angron's feats of strength is lifting a warhound's leg.
In his first encounter with the Swarmlord he fought against it and it's guardian swarms at once, eventually succumbing, but one on one he beat it to death with his bare hands.
Doombreed is indeed a daemon prince, one powerful enough to defeat a Warlord Titan one on one. Given that I'd give anyone who can beat him a good chance of beating a Primarch.
Draigo didn't have any help, in fact he had to fight through Mortarion's bodyguard alone before he struck the daemon down with a single blow.

Animus wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Beating an Avatar is nothing special, being strong enough to lift a thing isn't enough and he also got beaten to near death by the Swarmlord. Doombreed is a Daemon Prince and Draigo had the plot help I mentioned.

Beating an Avatar was something Fulgrim did, and he didn't do it like it was nothing.
Lifting a pylon makes him very strong indeed. One of Angron's feats of strength is lifting a warhound's leg.
In his first encounter with the Swarmlord he fought against it and it's guardian swarms at once, eventually succumbing, but one on one he beat it to death with his bare hands.
Doombreed is indeed a daemon prince, one powerful enough to defeat a Warlord Titan one on one. Given that I'd give anyone who can beat him a good chance of beating a Primarch.
Draigo didn't have any help, in fact he had to fight through Mortarion's bodyguard alone before he struck the daemon down with a single blow.

Killing an Avatar means the writers like you. That is all.
Okay. He can win arm wrestles.
I'm pretty sure Calgar and the Swarmlord both have bodyguards.
How? A single Warp Spider can 'defeat' a Warlord Titan but they can't kill a Primarch.
Conveniently having his Daemon name isn't plot help?

Yeah, I'm with pm713 on this one.

From 1d4chan, a list of people who have beaten an avatar:
Calgar
A keeper of secrets
Bullrushed by 12 Carnifexes
Fulgrim
Sanguinor
Lorgar
Killed 5 times over the course of DoW 1 and 2 (How much of this is canon is up to you).
Maugan Ra
Legion of the Damned

All of these are badasses, and calgar falls towards the lower end of the power level displayed here. Its impressive, but hardly a unique accomplishment. Lifting a pylon makes him strong, sure, but its not like the primarch never dealt with strong opponents before (massive orks, dreadnoughts, each other).

About the swarmlord, my understanding was that he had his arse kicked and would have died without the entirety of his honour guard sacrificing themselves like good nameless characters. The 2nd time around he beat it becuase reasons.

I really don't think that killing a titan and killing a primarch are at all similar. About Draigo's thing, to my knowledge most people consider it a sign of his sue-ness, but there was a book somewhere that made it much more reasonable. Anyone know which book it was?

Bear in mind one of those times the Avatar was strangled so when I bring up how often it happens I don't mean it's impressive I just mean the writers want you to sound cool.

Mudrat wrote:
a list of people who have beaten an avatar:

Add my Codex Witch Hunters where the Inquisitor Lord's Sage Henchman took the last wound off an Avatar with a laspistol...

Spetulhu wrote:

Mudrat wrote:
a list of people who have beaten an avatar:

Add my Codex Witch Hunters where the Inquisitor Lord's Sage Henchman took the last wound off an Avatar with a laspistol...

Someone got promoted!!!!

Spetulhu wrote:

Mudrat wrote:
a list of people who have beaten an avatar:

Add my Codex Witch Hunters where the Inquisitor Lord's Sage Henchman took the last wound off an Avatar with a laspistol...

Haha! perfect

See this is why I use the tabletop as the ultimate arbiter for the strength of a unit or an individual. Yes, the other bajillion times someone shot a Laspistol at an Avatar it did bugger all, but that one time your henchman pulled off the impossible (and will probably have a BL book written about him).

So, it's highly unlikely that a regular Astartes could beat a Primarch. It's slightly less likely that Calgar could beat one (although still statistically possible). Chapter Master Smashf*cker could probably beat one on more equal odds. The tabletop stats are, at the end of the day, the only solid evidence there is for comparing one thing to another strength-wise (given the understanding that some codices get unfairly shafted of course).

So, the answer would be that for any given metric, a Primarch would be between 1 and 4 better. Simple

The Avatar is treated as little more than a joke in the fluff and has seriously underwhelming rules for a near 200pt MC on the table. Beating it with anything just doesn't mean much these days thanks to some truly terrible writing.

 Imateria wrote:
The Avatar is treated as little more than a joke in the fluff and has seriously underwhelming rules for a near 200pt MC on the table. Beating it with anything just doesn't mean much these days thanks to some truly terrible writing.

Does it have underwhelming rules? Damn. Here was me thinking that I could at least uphold the Avatar's honour on the tabletop.

Is it just lacklustre rules for its price, or is it genuinely a little sub-par compared to other characters and MCs?

No, your friend is silly.
The Primarchs are essentially genetically engineered ubermenschen derived from the Emperor, who himself is an Ubermensch.

Marines are in turn derived from a fragment of the primarchs geneseed, and over time the marine creation process has become less efficient, to the point where its more of a ritual than a surgical procedure. If anything, the latest generation of marines should be weaker than their predecessors, due to their (relatively) shoddy creation.

Oh and before someone mentions Draigo, keep in mind that fluff written by a hack writer who's trying his damnest to make everything as EPIC AS POSSIBLE OMGWTFMICHAELBAY!1! does not count.
You might as well state that back flipping terminators are also viable, as that has appeared in the fluff as well.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
No, your friend is silly.
The Primarchs are essentially genetically engineered ubermensch derived from the Emperor, who himself is an Ubermensch.

Marines are in turn derived from a fragment of the primarchs geneseed, and over time the marine creation process has become less efficient, to the point where its more of a ritual than a surgical procedure. If anything, the latest generation of marines should be weaker than their predecessors, due to their (relatively) shoddy creation.

Oh and before someone mentions Draigo, keep in mind that fluff written by a hack writer who's trying his damnest to make everything as EPIC AS POSSIBLE OMGWTFMICHAELBAY!1! does not count.
You might as well state that back flipping terminators are also viable, as that has appeared in the fluff as well.

7




Multilazorgs....

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 Imateria wrote:
The Avatar is treated as little more than a joke in the fluff and has seriously underwhelming rules for a near 200pt MC on the table. Beating it with anything just doesn't mean much these days thanks to some truly terrible writing.

Does it have underwhelming rules? Damn. Here was me thinking that I could at least uphold the Avatar's honour on the tabletop.

Is it just lacklustre rules for its price, or is it genuinely a little sub-par compared to other characters and MCs?

For it's price mostly. It's got a pretty boss statline but a T6, 3+/5++ MC isn't the most survivable to shooting and suffers the same problem most Nid MC's have, complete lack of mobility.