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obviously primarchs were much, much more powerful than 30k regular astartes

but my friend claims that the best of 40k era astartes could possibly match the primarchs in singular combat

I mean someone like Dante or Logan could possibly overcome some of the weaker primarchs like Lorgar in singular combat?

I do believe that the exploits of the Primarchs in BL novels are exagerated and represent more a form of Space Marine folklore. Plus, in any story, no matter how outmatch the hero seems to be, he can always be a bit lucky if the story needs it. That's how people like Calgar can kill Avatars of Khaine or the Swarmlord or a man like Gaunt a Chaos Lord. So to answer your question, I believe its possible that he greatest champion of pretty much all faction can defeat a Primarch or a daemon Primarch. It would just be unlikely.

epronovost wrote:
I do believe that the exploits of the Primarchs in BL novels are exagerated and represent more a form of Space Marine folklore. Plus, in any story, no matter how outmatch the hero seems to be, he can always be a bit lucky if the story needs it. That's how people like Calgar can kill Avatars of Khaine or the Swarmlord or a man like Gaunt a Chaos Lord. So to answer your question, I believe its possible that he greatest champion of pretty much all faction can defeat a Primarch or a daemon Primarch. It would just be unlikely.

This seems like sense to me from both a practical perspective and a richness of the background perspective.

No your friend is wrong.

A regular astartes could not stand toe to toe with even the weakest of them.

Haven't we had this thread recently?

And your friend couldn't be more wrong, even Alpharius could backhand a regualr 40K Astartes into the Dark Age of Technology.

 Imateria wrote:
And your friend couldn't be more wrong, even Alpharius could backhand a regualr 40K Astartes into the Dark Age of Technology.

Exalted

But seriously, the Primarchs are faster, stronger and tougher than even the best Space Marines living in the 41st Millennium. There is the potential for one of them to maybe best a particular Primarch in one on one combat, but that doesn't make them their equals by any stretch of the imagination.

No, a Primarch could destroy any Space Marine. Stop making so many threads for basic questions

Are you sure this is your friend and not another one of the EXACT kind of threads you ALWAYS make?

 curran12 wrote:
Are you sure this is your friend and not another one of the EXACT kind of threads you ALWAYS make?

What are you talking about? LightKing rarely makes threads about the Imperium, Primarchs and how great they are.

But seriously LightKing. You don't need to make a thread whenever a question about the lore pops up. A lot of these can be answered by checking lexicanum. Nor should you make several of the same exact thread. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/707246.page and http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/708730.page are about the exact same subject! And they were made only two weeks apart!

In fairness, I was interested in at least half of LightKing's topics.

About the question, primarchs are obviously superior to 30k marines, and if anything I thought 40k ones were weaker. That was based off of minuscule geneseed degradation (one of the ultramarine novels, though it might have been ultramarines being snobs).
Whether there are individuals in 40k that could give the un-daemoned primarchs a fight is another questions. Personally, I would say that there aren't.

Mudrat wrote:
In fairness, I was interested in at least half of LightKing's topics.

About the question, primarchs are obviously superior to 30k marines, and if anything I thought 40k ones were weaker. That was based off of minuscule geneseed degradation (one of the ultramarine novels, though it might have been ultramarines being snobs).
Whether there are individuals in 40k that could give the un-daemoned primarchs a fight is another questions. Personally, I would say that there aren't.

Yeah same. They might be similar, but discouraging people from posting doesn't seem like a good idea for forum longevity. Sometimes they've brought up some interesting side-discussions when they meander off topic

Interesting about geneseed degradation resulting in weaker Astartes. I think you're likely right, that over time the degradation of geneseed would result in Astartes with fewer and fewer functioning capabilities. How far that has gone by the year 40k I'm not sure. Did the Fists already have a malfunctioning Betcher's Gland and Sus-an Membrane during the Heresy? Do we have any evidence of degradation of organ function occurring between 30k and 40k?

Thinking about it, there have been a number of positive mutations to geneseed since the 31st millennium, although most of these were purged or had crippling side-effects (cursed founding). Perhaps the real result is more variation in quality, rather than a general decline (although thinking about the original legions, they're pretty varied in quality too).

Would we necessarily hear about those that have degraded, given that our sources of information are just the snapshots of the universe that will help to sell plastic figures, not a complete picture?

Lots of questions, few solid answers. Just the way I like it

I think it's a fair assumption to think that geneseed has degraded in quality in that time, although the effects of that degradation aren't clear.

The newer model Space Marines with some defunct gene seeds still can kick ass with the best of them. Not on a Primarch scale mind.

Chaos Space Marines may refer to them as thin blooded or whatever but time and time again they prove to be their match.

I think it has to do with the Heresy, the newer Astartes have to prove that they are better then those that went traitor, those that stayed loyal even, and that they are humanities protectors. Of course there are those that fall short or miss the mark entirely. But old Legends breed new ones.

I found the quote that started my thoughts on geneseed degredation.

"Ach, these lads? They aren't first generation. They're a founding from way down the line. Copies of copies of copies. You don't dilute Astartes blood for thousands of years without seeing it become thin and weak."
-Sergeant Pasanius, Ultramarine, The chapters due Ch17. He's referring a warband of chaos renegades, as opposed to the iron warriors or the glorious ultramarines.

Also, for the record, his superior agrees with the assessment mentally (Quote: "The dead didn't care if they were killed by inferior copies of the first astartes or the genuine article."

I guess the only thing is that this doesn't work for comparing 30k-40k marines, instead its comparing 1st foundings with later bunches. Same principles could apply though.

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 curran12 wrote:
Are you sure this is your friend and not another one of the EXACT kind of threads you ALWAYS make?

What are you talking about? LightKing rarely makes threads about the Imperium, Primarchs and how great they are.

But seriously LightKing. You don't need to make a thread whenever a question about the lore pops up. A lot of these can be answered by checking lexicanum. Nor should you make several of the same exact thread. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/707246.page and http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/708730.page are about the exact same subject! And they were made only two weeks apart!

He likes the lore , so what if he is interested and wants to know answers and other's opinions..... You don't need to be a jerk about it.

usmcmidn wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 curran12 wrote:
Are you sure this is your friend and not another one of the EXACT kind of threads you ALWAYS make?

What are you talking about? LightKing rarely makes threads about the Imperium, Primarchs and how great they are.

But seriously LightKing. You don't need to make a thread whenever a question about the lore pops up. A lot of these can be answered by checking lexicanum. Nor should you make several of the same exact thread. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/707246.page and http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/708730.page are about the exact same subject! And they were made only two weeks apart!

He likes the lore , so what if he is interested and wants to know answers and other's opinions..... You don't need to be a jerk about it.

The problem is he floods the forum with very simple questions that could be answered with a search through lexicanum or creates threads that already exist such as the "1 on 1 combatant" thread. He can post all he wants, but a lot of people would prefer if he did a bit of research before he makes a thread about the first question that pops into his head

40k marines are not dissimilar to 30k...

Primarchs even the weakest cc like apharus could tear them to shreads.

The strongest can just mulch entire sqauds with little effort .

Mudrat wrote:
"Ach, these lads? They aren't first generation. They're a founding from way down the line. Copies of copies of copies. You don't dilute Astartes blood for thousands of years without seeing it become thin and weak."
-Sergeant Pasanius, Ultramarine, The chapters due Ch17.

Ehh... his own geneseed is just as much a copy of a copy of a copy even if it wasn't passed to a Successor Chapter. Talk about unwittingly insulting yourself. :-)

But otherwise 40K marines could probably give their 30K counterparts a hard run for the money. Their physical capabilities might have taken a hit but the training regimen is far more comprehensive than the "standard" Legion mass charges. Fewer men means you have to train them better.

Spetulhu wrote:

Mudrat wrote:
"Ach, these lads? They aren't first generation. They're a founding from way down the line. Copies of copies of copies. You don't dilute Astartes blood for thousands of years without seeing it become thin and weak."
-Sergeant Pasanius, Ultramarine, The chapters due Ch17.

Ehh... his own geneseed is just as much a copy of a copy of a copy even if it wasn't passed to a Successor Chapter. Talk about unwittingly insulting yourself. :-)

But otherwise 40K marines could probably give their 30K counterparts a hard run for the money. Their physical capabilities might have taken a hit but the training regimen is far more comprehensive than the "standard" Legion mass charges. Fewer men means you have to train them better.

Yep this

I'll chalk that one up to the Ultramarine superiority complex.

The only change is possible meddling from the Ad Mech, which half the time seems to give chapters stuff like awesome bone claws, and half the time they're gibbering monsters. Solid 50:50 chance of being physically superior

usmcmidn wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 curran12 wrote:
Are you sure this is your friend and not another one of the EXACT kind of threads you ALWAYS make?

What are you talking about? LightKing rarely makes threads about the Imperium, Primarchs and how great they are.

But seriously LightKing. You don't need to make a thread whenever a question about the lore pops up. A lot of these can be answered by checking lexicanum. Nor should you make several of the same exact thread. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/707246.page and http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/708730.page are about the exact same subject! And they were made only two weeks apart!

He likes the lore , so what if he is interested and wants to know answers and other's opinions..... You don't need to be a jerk about it.

He repeats the same threads often within weeks of each other. I appreciate discussion but I think LightKing should slow it down with how many threads he posts. Especially when a lot of them can be answered by searches on Lexicanum.

 TheCustomLime wrote:

usmcmidn wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 curran12 wrote:
Are you sure this is your friend and not another one of the EXACT kind of threads you ALWAYS make?

What are you talking about? LightKing rarely makes threads about the Imperium, Primarchs and how great they are.

But seriously LightKing. You don't need to make a thread whenever a question about the lore pops up. A lot of these can be answered by checking lexicanum. Nor should you make several of the same exact thread. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/707246.page and http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/708730.page are about the exact same subject! And they were made only two weeks apart!

He likes the lore , so what if he is interested and wants to know answers and other's opinions..... You don't need to be a jerk about it.

He repeats the same threads often within weeks of each other. I appreciate discussion but I think LightKing should slow it down with how many threads he posts. Especially when a lot of them can be answered by searches on Lexicanum.

Yep, I've said the same thing to him before in other threads and he doesn't seem to be getting the hint to slow it down, I'm not sure if he understands that the forum is more than just an answer machine. He's even gone onto News and Rumours and started posting questions there and had to be straightened out a bit for going off-topic.

Curiosity and enthusiasm into lore is fine, but it doesn't warrant spamming threads either.

It seems people are scolding the OP. He seems young and just is enthusiastic about the 40k world. I do not think you can say someone is spamming threads. If that were the case the Devs and moderators would lock his account. Going after him is just going to leave a bad taste in his mouth for not only this site but the game also.

If you don't like his threads, don't read them and ignore them and move on. Don't belittle him showing how many threads he posted. Again if you feel right just contact a mod or dev and speak to someone who runs the site and see what they think. Just my two cents which don't really matter I'm just some dude who goes on here when I need to take a dump and enjoys a very friendly game once in a while.

Yep this

I'll chalk that one up to the Ultramarine superiority complex.

The only change is possible meddling from the Ad Mech, which half the time seems to give chapters stuff like awesome bone claws, and half the time they're gibbering monsters. Solid 50:50 chance of being physically superior

That's what I thought, but its still an interesting perspective. To my knowledge none of the 30k imperial fists have the gene seed degredations that they have in 40k, so there might be something to this, although affecting all marines not just those of later founding chapters.

I guess its all a matter of opinion. Personally, I think space marines are notably weaker than advertised in general media, but thats due to my major introduction to 40k being DoW. I don't see why 40k SM's wouldn't be equal to 30k.

Spetulhu wrote:

Mudrat wrote:
"Ach, these lads? They aren't first generation. They're a founding from way down the line. Copies of copies of copies. You don't dilute Astartes blood for thousands of years without seeing it become thin and weak."
-Sergeant Pasanius, Ultramarine, The chapters due Ch17.

Ehh... his own geneseed is just as much a copy of a copy of a copy even if it wasn't passed to a Successor Chapter. Talk about unwittingly insulting yourself. :-)

But otherwise 40K marines could probably give their 30K counterparts a hard run for the money. Their physical capabilities might have taken a hit but the training regimen is far more comprehensive than the "standard" Legion mass charges. Fewer men means you have to train them better.

Legions where definitely differently trained. There typical deployment was far larger.
Training lengh and quality may nudge to 40k

But 30k is even first generation marines. The purest non primarch geneseed.

War gear is different, more advanced but less also on both sides.
A 30k vs 40k be interesting match but both weak vs primarch..

usmcmidn wrote:
It seems people are scolding the OP. He seems young and just is enthusiastic about the 40k world. I do not think you can say someone is spamming threads. If that were the case the Devs and moderators would lock his account. Going after him is just going to leave a bad taste in his mouth for not only this site but the game also.

If you don't like his threads, don't read them and ignore them and move on. Don't belittle him showing how many threads he posted. Again if you feel right just contact a mod or dev and speak to someone who runs the site and see what they think. Just my two cents which don't really matter I'm just some dude who goes on here when I need to take a dump and enjoys a very friendly game once in a while.

This. Having been on a couple of forums in the past where posting rates have slowed down, there's nothing more deadly to a forum than stagnation. So what if there's similar posts? Don't read them. Trust in the mods to decide when something's becoming spammy. Til then, just go where the conversation takes you.

For instance, this particular thread while ostensibly very similar to other threads regarding Astartes vs Primarchs has prompted an interesting discussion on potential gene degradation from 30k to 40k that I don't think I've come across before.

Mudrat wrote:

That's what I thought, but its still an interesting perspective. To my knowledge none of the 30k imperial fists have the gene seed degredations that they have in 40k, so there might be something to this, although affecting all marines not just those of later founding chapters.

I guess its all a matter of opinion. Personally, I think space marines are notably weaker than advertised in general media, but thats due to my major introduction to 40k being DoW. I don't see why 40k SM's wouldn't be equal to 30k.

Absolutely agreed on the SM power level front. As far as I'm concerned, all of the stories of Space Marines tanking inordinate amounts of damage and other such things is primarily propaganda.

For me, the real arbiter of the relative power of an individual unit is the tabletop. Sure the 1-10 system is a little crude, and it could do with a little balancing here and there (Tyranid Warriors really should be T5 for instance), but for the most part statistics don't lie. Space Marines are better than humans in almost every conceivable way, but not by an inordinate amount (only 1 point in most cases).

Conversely, I believe that there must be a lot more Space Marines out there than the fluff suggests. Either more chapters, or each chapter has 10,000 Astartes rather than 1000. Or both.

So, bending the fluff to add realism goes both ways

Mudrat wrote:

Yep this

I'll chalk that one up to the Ultramarine superiority complex.

The only change is possible meddling from the Ad Mech, which half the time seems to give chapters stuff like awesome bone claws, and half the time they're gibbering monsters. Solid 50:50 chance of being physically superior

That's what I thought, but its still an interesting perspective. To my knowledge none of the 30k imperial fists have the gene seed degredations that they have in 40k, so there might be something to this, although affecting all marines not just those of later founding chapters.

I guess its all a matter of opinion. Personally, I think space marines are notably weaker than advertised in general media, but thats due to my major introduction to 40k being DoW. I don't see why 40k SM's wouldn't be equal to 30k.

Warning contains spoilers about the Beast arises series.

the ancient wrote:

Mudrat wrote:

Yep this

I'll chalk that one up to the Ultramarine superiority complex.

The only change is possible meddling from the Ad Mech, which half the time seems to give chapters stuff like awesome bone claws, and half the time they're gibbering monsters. Solid 50:50 chance of being physically superior

That's what I thought, but its still an interesting perspective. To my knowledge none of the 30k imperial fists have the gene seed degredations that they have in 40k, so there might be something to this, although affecting all marines not just those of later founding chapters.

I guess its all a matter of opinion. Personally, I think space marines are notably weaker than advertised in general media, but thats due to my major introduction to 40k being DoW. I don't see why 40k SM's wouldn't be equal to 30k.

The Fists are dead, They were completely wiped out in the Beast Arises. They were replaced by an assortment of 2nd founding chapters marines. One of which was based on a fethed up solar radiated world which messed up their sus-an membrane. So they just didnt implant it into any new recruits. The betchers gland spit probably turned up around the same time. Unless they were wiped out again

Interesting. 2nd founding Fists successors I'd still count as Fists. They're still Sons of Dorn, bearing his geneseed. The solar radiation is interesting though. It's not just general degradation that they need to contend with (if that does occur), but also specific degradation from effects such as excessive radiation.

the ancient wrote:

Mudrat wrote:

Yep this

I'll chalk that one up to the Ultramarine superiority complex.

The only change is possible meddling from the Ad Mech, which half the time seems to give chapters stuff like awesome bone claws, and half the time they're gibbering monsters. Solid 50:50 chance of being physically superior

That's what I thought, but its still an interesting perspective. To my knowledge none of the 30k imperial fists have the gene seed degredations that they have in 40k, so there might be something to this, although affecting all marines not just those of later founding chapters.

I guess its all a matter of opinion. Personally, I think space marines are notably weaker than advertised in general media, but thats due to my major introduction to 40k being DoW. I don't see why 40k SM's wouldn't be equal to 30k.

The Fists are dead, They were completely wiped out in the Beast Arises. They were replaced by an assortment of 2nd founding chapters marines. One of which was based on a fethed up solar radiated world which messed up their sus-an membrane. So they just didnt implant it into any new recruits. The betchers gland spit probably turned up around the same time. Unless they were wiped out again

Oh no im only on the 4th book!!! So I guess Slaughter dies then hmmmm? ? ?

usmcmidn wrote:

the ancient wrote:

Mudrat wrote:

Yep this

I'll chalk that one up to the Ultramarine superiority complex.

The only change is possible meddling from the Ad Mech, which half the time seems to give chapters stuff like awesome bone claws, and half the time they're gibbering monsters. Solid 50:50 chance of being physically superior

That's what I thought, but its still an interesting perspective. To my knowledge none of the 30k imperial fists have the gene seed degredations that they have in 40k, so there might be something to this, although affecting all marines not just those of later founding chapters.

I guess its all a matter of opinion. Personally, I think space marines are notably weaker than advertised in general media, but thats due to my major introduction to 40k being DoW. I don't see why 40k SM's wouldn't be equal to 30k.

The Fists are dead, They were completely wiped out in the Beast Arises. They were replaced by an assortment of 2nd founding chapters marines. One of which was based on a fethed up solar radiated world which messed up their sus-an membrane. So they just didnt implant it into any new recruits. The betchers gland spit probably turned up around the same time. Unless they were wiped out again

Oh no im only on the 4th book!!! So I guess Slaughter dies then hmmmm? ? ?

Sorry. I better spoiler that post then. Erp. Was hoping that would hide the quotes as well.

I do believe that 40k Marines are the superiors of 30k Marines in general, as Guilliman corrected the faulty processes of Marine creation the Legions used, which had caused mental and physical weakness in the Legionnaires.
That said I do not think the average Marine of either era could stand up against a Primarch.
Though there are notable exceptions, such as Calgar, Mephiston and Draigo.

Animus wrote:
I do believe that 40k Marines are the superiors of 30k Marines in general, as Guilliman corrected the faulty processes of Marine creation the Legions used, which had caused mental and physical weakness in the Legionnaires.
That said I do not think the average Marine of either era could stand up against a Primarch.
Though there are notable exceptions, such as Calgar, Mephiston and Draigo.

I doubt any of them could actually win against a Primarch without plot help.