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 Roknar wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:


I am kind of surprised that the Black Legion got this ability and not the Night Lords but it does force an interesting choice. Re-roll charges from deep strike oooor.... get deep strikes on turn one with Marks.

Not sure what you mean? Raptors talons can re-roll the charge either way due to not needing to use their jump packs on the turn they deepstrike. Being a jump unit gives them deepstrike. You wouldn't be able to put them into deepstrike reserve otherwise.
All NL raptors have over BL ones is stealth, which isn't really that much of a boon on raptors. Compared to, say, bikes who get a jink save. Unless you have them out on turn 1 and you're not using their formation rule to deepstrike and charge, but then you're better off using the ObSec raptors from the warband. BL also get Hatred and crusader so they hit harder in CC even without marks and they effectively have +1-3 iniative for sweeping advances. Plus they get banners and marks and maybe even legacy of ruin buffs as those require icons the NLs can't take (other than vengance). And an icon of Wrath would also let them re-roll later.
NL Talons have night vision and better fear tests, but night vision is borderline pointless on a raptor Talon and fear is...well..fear.
A NL raptor Talon doesn't have much to offer compared to a BL talon. Not speaking about raptors in general, just the Talon.

Thatsa not accurate. Deep Striking IS using their jump packs. So no. they could not re-roll charges the round they deep strike without that ability, which the Night Lords gives back to them.

 Jancoran wrote:

 Roknar wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:


I am kind of surprised that the Black Legion got this ability and not the Night Lords but it does force an interesting choice. Re-roll charges from deep strike oooor.... get deep strikes on turn one with Marks.

Not sure what you mean? Raptors talons can re-roll the charge either way due to not needing to use their jump packs on the turn they deepstrike. Being a jump unit gives them deepstrike. You wouldn't be able to put them into deepstrike reserve otherwise.
All NL raptors have over BL ones is stealth, which isn't really that much of a boon on raptors. Compared to, say, bikes who get a jink save. Unless you have them out on turn 1 and you're not using their formation rule to deepstrike and charge, but then you're better off using the ObSec raptors from the warband. BL also get Hatred and crusader so they hit harder in CC even without marks and they effectively have +1-3 iniative for sweeping advances. Plus they get banners and marks and maybe even legacy of ruin buffs as those require icons the NLs can't take (other than vengance). And an icon of Wrath would also let them re-roll later.
NL Talons have night vision and better fear tests, but night vision is borderline pointless on a raptor Talon and fear is...well..fear.
A NL raptor Talon doesn't have much to offer compared to a BL talon. Not speaking about raptors in general, just the Talon.

Thatsa not accurate. Deep Striking IS using their jump packs. So no. they could not re-roll charges the round they deep strike without that ability, which the Night Lords gives back to them.

Please provide a source for this. The rules for jump units say they have the deepstrike special rule. They say nothing about counting as having used their jump pack to do so.
The rules for deepstriking say they count as having moved, but again nothing about having used their jump pack.
It makes sense that they would use their packs for deepstriking but that's not actually supported by the rules.

Define "Good". It certainly adds a TON of awesome flavor! I'm so excited about it.

 Roknar wrote:

Please provide a source for this. The rules for jump units say they have the deepstrike special rule. They say nothing about counting as having used their jump pack to do so.
The rules for deepstriking say they count as having moved, but again nothing about having used their jump pack.
It makes sense that they would use their packs for deepstriking but that's not actually supported by the rules.

You have to be joking.

People are gushing over the DG simply because it is the most obvious choice on a first glance. I myself, think DG are really good. But not the only choice people have them made out to be. Black Legion is VERY strong as well as psyker heavy TS (which is sad) along with AL tricks and EC. The only real subpar choices are WB and rubric heavy TS. My thoughts are still out on the WE. SImply because I cant tell in theory craft if the extra movement and charge range is worth giving up KdK rules. Im guessing a WE Maelstrom of Gore backed up by a hefty Lost and Damned formation may make for fun, but I doubt it will be pulling many tourney top spots.

All in all this supplement was a godsend. It lets us make fluffy AND competitive list choices (some are both at once even). We are firmly at the very top of the b tier neck and neck with Crons. The fact that eldar/tau/deamons and gladius are not properly balanced does not make this supplement bad. It makes those factions in dire need to a "nerf". We are were we should be. Now we need the rest of the game to catch up.


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 Jancoran wrote:

 Roknar wrote:

Please provide a source for this. The rules for jump units say they have the deepstrike special rule. They say nothing about counting as having used their jump pack to do so.
The rules for deepstriking say they count as having moved, but again nothing about having used their jump pack.
It makes sense that they would use their packs for deepstriking but that's not actually supported by the rules.

You have to be joking.

Off topic, but I was wondering your thoughts on the NL's relic choices. Most seem weak to me outside of the Vox. But I am only a mediocre player and perhaps a more vet'd opinion is in order.

Table wrote:
People are gushing over the DG simply because it is the most obvious choice on a first glance. I myself, think DG are really good. But not the only choice people have them made out to be. Black Legion is VERY strong as well as psyker heavy TS (which is sad) along with AL tricks and EC. The only real subpar choices are WB and rubric heavy TS. My thoughts are still out on the WE. SImply because I cant tell in theory craft if the extra movement and charge range is worth giving up KdK rules. Im guessing a WE Maelstrom of Gore backed up by a hefty Lost and Damned formation may make for fun, but I doubt it will be pulling many tourney top spots.

All in all this supplement was a godsend. It lets us make fluffy AND competitive list choices (some are both at once even). We are firmly at the very top of the b tier neck and neck with Crons. The fact that eldar/tau/deamons and gladius are not properly balanced does not make this supplement bad. It makes those factions in dire need to a "nerf". We are were we should be. Now we need the rest of the game to catch up.


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 Jancoran wrote:

 Roknar wrote:

Please provide a source for this. The rules for jump units say they have the deepstrike special rule. They say nothing about counting as having used their jump pack to do so.
The rules for deepstriking say they count as having moved, but again nothing about having used their jump pack.
It makes sense that they would use their packs for deepstriking but that's not actually supported by the rules.

You have to be joking.

Off topic, but I was wondering your thoughts on the NL's relic choices. Most seem weak to me outside of the Vox. But I am only a mediocre player and perhaps a more vet'd opinion is in order.

Most of the relics are pretty okay and worth using. The only one I'm not terribly a fan of is the special lightning claws because of the super large investment for them.

Table wrote:

Off topic, but I was wondering your thoughts on the NL's relic choices. Most seem weak to me outside of the Vox. But I am only a mediocre player and perhaps a more vet'd opinion is in order.

Scourging Chains is simply awesome. 10 points to make all your close combat attacks Shred? Yes please! Good against all manner of enemy and with all manner of weaponry. It's a great addition and a nice "I've got ten points left, what should I take" kind of an item.

Claws of the Black Hunt are ESSENTIALLY just Rending and +1 STR for 10 points. It says 40, but you'd already have to pay for the pair of lightning claws anyways. So if you were already taking a pair of lightning claws, this is a nice upgrade for 10 points. If you werent going to, then don't take it.

Talons of the Night Terror are a really nice answer to hordes. Consider this: The average number of attacks on the charge that you get from the artifact is slightly more than what you'd get for just bringing another Marine with Pistol + CCW and you'd have the extra wound to show for it if you took the Marine. BUT... As Chaos Characters must challenge, the real advantage to this artifact is that it gives you a much better chance in challenges, especially if you took a Fist. The normal attacks it allows may allow you to beat the challenged about the ears, and by so doing, avoid ITS super weapon. That in turn becomes a Boon for your HQ and allows the HQ to actually attack the unit at large afterwards (I know the wounds would spill outwards anyways but this ensures a CHANCE that all the Fist wounds will). IN the context of a challenging Chaos Lord, which is where this would be taken, it makes more sense perhaps in that way than it appears.

Vox Daemonicus is quite excellent. I think it will get more attention than most. 30 point to nerf enemy reserves (-1). More importantly it adds an aura of -1 LD which is great in conjunction with Night Lords who reduce enemy leadership vs. fear by 2 already. It is quite likely that enemies will suffer greatly at the hands of such a Chaos Lord for they will simply be hitting on 5's a pretty good chunk of the time if they aren't immune to Fear. Sadly many are. Still it's a really nice artifact and it works in convjunction well with certain Psyker powers like Terrify and so on. 30 points feels right on the edge of "too much" but it doesnt quite cross over in my mind. There are also a fair number of opponents who use reserves so Drop Pod armies will be none too happy to see a Chaos Lord with this upgrade.

Curze's Orb is not nearly as exciting as any of the other choices. It's preferred enemy, pretty much but I think I'd rather have the cheaper Scourging Chains.

Stormbolt Plate looks GREAT. How long have we all wished a Chaos Lord could get a 2+ armor! Also, he now can get it with Stealth +1... meaning he's tanking on 2+ cover in cover. That is truly awesome. Still no Eternal Warrior but if you're on a Bike that problem is largely solved also. So this might be the biggest winner of them all. I love it. 20 points is an absolute steal for this artifact in this force.

 Jancoran wrote:

 Roknar wrote:

Please provide a source for this. The rules for jump units say they have the deepstrike special rule. They say nothing about counting as having used their jump pack to do so.
The rules for deepstriking say they count as having moved, but again nothing about having used their jump pack.
It makes sense that they would use their packs for deepstriking but that's not actually supported by the rules.

You have to be joking.

Why? According to the fluff every normal assault marine would have deepstrike assault with hammer of wrath. But that's all it is...fluff.
The rules say they have deepstrike, no more, no less. You can choose to use the jump pack or not during the movement phase. Choosing not to use doesn't change the fact that the model has the deepstrike special rule.

So if you choose to count as having used the jump pack when deepstriking, that's your prerogative. I'd rather use it to re-roll charges and gain hammer of wrath attacks. Which imho is closer to the lore too. If you disagree, perhaps we should take this to you make da call instead.

 sfshilo wrote:

The regular csm nurgle marine is not fearless, has less attacks, is going to strike at init 3, no poisen, and is leadership nine at best....

Regular Death Guard Marine is fearless.
And Plague Marines only get two attacks when not charging

 sfshilo wrote:
Does anyone here actually play csm?

CSM are much better but each legion is regulated to one or two tricks.
Death guard are my primary army, stop with this "csm units are cheap plague marines" nonsense.
Plague Marines are so much better its rediculous.

For 23 ppm, fearless, defensive and assault grenades, poison, three attacks when not charging, relentless, WS and Init modifier to enemy, and if you play a big enough game they also get a toughness modifier.

The regular csm nurgle marine is not fearless, has less attacks, is going to strike at init 3, no poisen, and is leadership nine at best....

If your source of inspiration for heavy weapons is a death guard marine then you are doing csm wrong lol. Oblits, heldrakes, vindicators, and termies are much better in those roles.
If obsec is your thing fine, csm deqth guard are ok at that, but iron warriors are much better in that role. Stubborn and 6+ fnp is awesome for obsec.

Do you actually play csm with traitor legions? You seem to have forgotten the entirety of page 116 in the traitor legion book (or at least only forgotten the bits that take away from your argument; you remembered the initiative drop on regular death guard marines, which is the only negative change, but forgotten every single positive one...)

For 16 ppm chaos marines in death guard from traitor legions gain fearless, relentless, and FNP. Also, death guard have 2 attacks each (one on profile, one from pistol and plague knife).

So for 7 ppm you gain an extra melee attack, blight grenades, and 4+ poison in close combat. In what world is that "so much better it's rediculous"?. I'd take the cheaper guys every time.

And yes, plague marines can get the toughness modifier, if you take the plague colony with 7 units of plague marines. Which you are never going to do due to needing, as you said, to spend points on oblits, heldrakes, vindicators, and termies. And sure you get the ws and i penalties for running the minimum 3 units + lord in a plague colony, but so what? Plague marines in close combat just grind enemies down over several turns, they aren't close combat monsters, and this will not change that. Also, I'd rather take the chaos warband pretty much every time due to that sweet ObSec and flexibility in unit choice. You NEED ObSec in death guard. Like the gladius and most necrons, death guard lists aren't supposed to be tabling their opponent, you win by sitting on objectives and being impossible to remove. To do that you need ObSec. Being able to cover so many bases in one formation is really nice as well, with the ability to take termicide for anti-tank, having bikers to go with your lord, a havoc squad (which became massively better) for some long ranged firepower... Chaos warband> plague colony every time.

And no, iron warriors do not MSU anywhere near as well as death guard. Fearless>stubborn/ fearless in fortifications, 5+ FNP> 6+ FNP, relentless> no relentless, and death guard gain stealth from more than 18" and reroll 1's for FNP. Death guard msu squads are "so much better it's rediculous" at msu than iron warriors. I've missed out the +1 toughness for deathguard because it isn't a free bonus so isn't a direct advantage, but it does cement death guard squads as being vastly more resilient than iron warrior ones.


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DG, EC, and WE got buffed to maybe mid-tier. Lack of an ...ATSKNF equivalent has been one of the many issues (having to spend our HQ choices or an Icon to get it at absolute premium wasn't working). The rest got a buff, but not much.

I think the most overrated one is the Alpha Legion Insurgency Force. Nevermind the logistical nightmare of the sheer amount of models you have to paint, Cultists don't come anywhere near as cheap as they should, and Renegades to them better and cheaper, leaving Chosen and CSMs, which are awful.

Mindveil is a good artefact, but an Alpha Legion Insurgency Force cannot use a Spartan (or Kharybdis) as a delivery method unless you ally in a CAD, and then you lose Infiltrate. You can take a Dreadclaw for a pretty bad deathstar, but no point in taking the Alpha Legion Insurgency then.

 ChazSexington wrote:
DG, EC, and WE got buffed to maybe mid-tier. Lack of an ...ATSKNF equivalent has been one of the many issues (having to spend our HQ choices or an Icon to get it at absolute premium wasn't working). The rest got a buff, but not much.

I think the most overrated one is the Alpha Legion Insurgency Force. Nevermind the logistical nightmare of the sheer amount of models you have to paint, Cultists don't come anywhere near as cheap as they should, and Renegades to them better and cheaper, leaving Chosen and CSMs, which are awful.

Mindveil is a good artefact, but an Alpha Legion Insurgency Force cannot use a Spartan (or Kharybdis) as a delivery method unless you ally in a CAD, and then you lose Infiltrate. You can take a Dreadclaw for a pretty bad deathstar, but no point in taking the Alpha Legion Insurgency then.

The main draw, as I see it with the Alpha Legion (outside of the fluff or paint scheme) is the 4+ re-roll on re-spawning cultists that stacks with the Lost and the Damned formation rule. But the major issue is that you cannot chose the The Lost and the Damned formation as a core formation. The only core formation for a AL detachment is a chaos warband. Which is a good solid formation. But it is an expensive one. After you get done paying for it you will be hard pressed to find points for a lost and damned formation while filling out your Anti armor / MC roles. So, it is a self defeating rule.

Other than that bit of information I do not feel qualified enough to comment on the other faction bonus's and how they work out in actual games. What I do know is that the more I read traitor legions the more I am seeing specific limitations put into the legions to keep them upper mid tier. For instance. If the Black Legion had access to a chaos warband it would be ALMOST as strong as a gladius formation (the lack of grav means the loyalists win out) but the fact you are forced to either take the subpar black legion warband or the the hounds of abbadon as a core formation really keeps the legion from the top listings. It is still a very good detachment. But it could have been so much better and given chaos playeers their first honest to goodness tourney tier list. Sadly, this is not the fate GW has in mind for CSM and that fact has been proven with every update past 3.5. And at the risk of being a broken record, it is not changing any time in the near future.

Lets hope GW gets smart and actually understand how well chaos sells if there is proper rules behind the mini's and gives us a proper codex in 8th. Until then we are doing pretty good however.

I've been really impressed by the Emperor's Children, World Eaters, Black Legion and Death Guard, there's some beautiful stuff in those sections.

I've been very disappointed in the Word Bearers, though. Without the Grand Host detachment the only units that receive any buffs outside of VotLW are Dark Apostles and psykers, meaning your lists don't get any real benefits without these units, which sucks considering I don't like fielding Daemon Princes and am not impressed with malefic daemonology as well as when you consider this is in the same book where another Legion gets FNP, fearless and relentless for free. If they had given the Sorcerers some kind of protection from malefic perils I'd be content. Even with the Grand Host all you get is crusader over the Black Crusade detachment which I'm not thrilled by.

The relics are on average middling.

The Skull of Monarchia is more often than not not going to be of any real use.

The Malefic tome is okay too. Not bad for two meltabombs.

Scripts of Erebus are great for a psychic phase where you must make something happen.

The Baleful Icon confuses me. Maybe in a sorceror bunker? I'm not a fan.

Crown of the Blasphemer is a nice way of getting a 4++ on a Warpsmith. It's a sigil of corruption with Admantium Will, this is weak I think.

Cursed Crozius is a concussive relic blade with PE Imperium. It's alright on a DP for S8 but then the Black Mace is better on a DP.

I really like the warlord traits other than the Fearless+AW one. Voice of Lorgar, Nexus of the Gods, Latent powers and Unholy Firebrand are all fantastic.

Tactical objectives are alright. Again, heavy emphasis on summoning.

Honestly I'm torn. I don't see my army changing to accommodate a Dark Apostle or a Daemon Prince. If I wanted to summon daemons I'd ally in something that can from the Chaos Daemons book where I'd also be able to take relics and icons to support them.

So for me the only thing the base Legion rules added was free VotlW and super hatred for Ultramarines and the Grand Host can give me Crusader.

I've thought about a CAD, but without any cult marines I don't think it'll be too effective.

I think every Word Bearers army that has any degree of success will be a summoning Daemon Prince, which hasn't really helped the Legion, its just allowing you to use units from the superior Daemons book. Personally I'll be running mine as a different Legion.

 Sheokronath wrote:
I've been really impressed by the Emperor's Children, World Eaters, Black Legion and Death Guard, there's some beautiful stuff in those sections.

I've been very disappointed in the Word Bearers, though. Without the Grand Host detachment the only units that receive any buffs outside of VotLW are Dark Apostles and psykers, meaning your lists don't get any real benefits without these units, which sucks considering I don't like fielding Daemon Princes and am not impressed with malefic daemonology as well as when you consider this is in the same book where another Legion gets FNP, fearless and relentless for free. If they had given the Sorcerers some kind of protection from malefic perils I'd be content. Even with the Grand Host all you get is crusader over the Black Crusade detachment which I'm not thrilled by.

The relics are on average middling.

The Skull of Monarchia is more often than not not going to be of any real use.

The Malefic tome is okay too. Not bad for two meltabombs.

Scripts of Erebus are great for a psychic phase where you must make something happen.

The Baleful Icon confuses me. Maybe in a sorceror bunker? I'm not a fan.

Crown of the Blasphemer is a nice way of getting a 4++ on a Warpsmith. It's a sigil of corruption with Admantium Will, this is weak I think.

Cursed Crozius is a concussive relic blade with PE Imperium. It's alright on a DP for S8 but then the Black Mace is better on a DP.

I really like the warlord traits other than the Fearless+AW one. Voice of Lorgar, Nexus of the Gods, Latent powers and Unholy Firebrand are all fantastic.

Tactical objectives are alright. Again, heavy emphasis on summoning.

Honestly I'm torn. I don't see my army changing to accommodate a Dark Apostle or a Daemon Prince. If I wanted to summon daemons I'd ally in something that can from the Chaos Daemons book where I'd also be able to take relics and icons to support them.

So for me the only thing the base Legion rules added was free VotlW and super hatred for Ultramarines and the Grand Host can give me Crusader.

I've thought about a CAD, but without any cult marines I don't think it'll be too effective.

I think every Word Bearers army that has any degree of success will be a summoning Daemon Prince, which hasn't really helped the Legion, its just allowing you to use units from the superior Daemons book. Personally I'll be running mine as a different Legion.

There is a Legacy of Ruin in IA 13 which is called Death of Kasyr Lutien. It allows psykers withing 12 inch of the tank to re-roll a d6 per hull point on all tests for maelific demonology.. I think this will be standard for Word Bearer lists. To bad you need IA 13 to use it.

Popey45696321 wrote:

 sfshilo wrote:
Does anyone here actually play csm?

CSM are much better but each legion is regulated to one or two tricks.
Death guard are my primary army, stop with this "csm units are cheap plague marines" nonsense.
Plague Marines are so much better its rediculous.

For 23 ppm, fearless, defensive and assault grenades, poison, three attacks when not charging, relentless, WS and Init modifier to enemy, and if you play a big enough game they also get a toughness modifier.

The regular csm nurgle marine is not fearless, has less attacks, is going to strike at init 3, no poisen, and is leadership nine at best....

If your source of inspiration for heavy weapons is a death guard marine then you are doing csm wrong lol. Oblits, heldrakes, vindicators, and termies are much better in those roles.
If obsec is your thing fine, csm deqth guard are ok at that, but iron warriors are much better in that role. Stubborn and 6+ fnp is awesome for obsec.

Do you actually play csm with traitor legions? You seem to have forgotten the entirety of page 116 in the traitor legion book (or at least only forgotten the bits that take away from your argument; you remembered the initiative drop on regular death guard marines, which is the only negative change, but forgotten every single positive one...)

For 16 ppm chaos marines in death guard from traitor legions gain fearless, relentless, and FNP. Also, death guard have 2 attacks each (one on profile, one from pistol and plague knife).

So for 7 ppm you gain an extra melee attack, blight grenades, and 4+ poison in close combat. In what world is that "so much better it's rediculous"?. I'd take the cheaper guys every time.

And yes, plague marines can get the toughness modifier, if you take the plague colony with 7 units of plague marines. Which you are never going to do due to needing, as you said, to spend points on oblits, heldrakes, vindicators, and termies. And sure you get the ws and i penalties for running the minimum 3 units + lord in a plague colony, but so what? Plague marines in close combat just grind enemies down over several turns, they aren't close combat monsters, and this will not change that. Also, I'd rather take the chaos warband pretty much every time due to that sweet ObSec and flexibility in unit choice. You NEED ObSec in death guard. Like the gladius and most necrons, death guard lists aren't supposed to be tabling their opponent, you win by sitting on objectives and being impossible to remove. To do that you need ObSec. Being able to cover so many bases in one formation is really nice as well, with the ability to take termicide for anti-tank, having bikers to go with your lord, a havoc squad (which became massively better) for some long ranged firepower... Chaos warband> plague colony every time.

And no, iron warriors do not MSU anywhere near as well as death guard. Fearless>stubborn/ fearless in fortifications, 5+ FNP> 6+ FNP, relentless> no relentless, and death guard gain stealth from more than 18" and reroll 1's for FNP. Death guard msu squads are "so much better it's rediculous" at msu than iron warriors. I've missed out the +1 toughness for deathguard because it isn't a free bonus so isn't a direct advantage, but it does cement death guard squads as being vastly more resilient than iron warrior ones.


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Plague Marines also pay to get their special weapons cheaper in the long run. 50 points adds up pretty quick.


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 ChazSexington wrote:
DG, EC, and WE got buffed to maybe mid-tier. Lack of an ...ATSKNF equivalent has been one of the many issues (having to spend our HQ choices or an Icon to get it at absolute premium wasn't working). The rest got a buff, but not much.

I think the most overrated one is the Alpha Legion Insurgency Force. Nevermind the logistical nightmare of the sheer amount of models you have to paint, Cultists don't come anywhere near as cheap as they should, and Renegades to them better and cheaper, leaving Chosen and CSMs, which are awful.

Mindveil is a good artefact, but an Alpha Legion Insurgency Force cannot use a Spartan (or Kharybdis) as a delivery method unless you ally in a CAD, and then you lose Infiltrate. You can take a Dreadclaw for a pretty bad deathstar, but no point in taking the Alpha Legion Insurgency then.

What does the Spartan have to do with anything?

The Spartan is an land raider variant that actually works and is worth the points spent on it (barely). Not sure if that is a answer or not.

Table wrote:

There is a Legacy of Ruin in IA 13 which is called Death of Kasyr Lutien. It allows psykers withing 12 inch of the tank to re-roll a d6 per hull point on all tests for maelific demonology.. I think this will be standard for Word Bearer lists. To bad you need IA 13 to use it.

I know of the Legacies of Ruin and I'm personally not a fan, but I think we'll see it too.

 Roknar wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 Roknar wrote:

Please provide a source for this. The rules for jump units say they have the deepstrike special rule. They say nothing about counting as having used their jump pack to do so.
The rules for deepstriking say they count as having moved, but again nothing about having used their jump pack.
It makes sense that they would use their packs for deepstriking but that's not actually supported by the rules.

You have to be joking.

Why? According to the fluff every normal assault marine would have deepstrike assault with hammer of wrath. But that's all it is...fluff.
The rules say they have deepstrike, no more, no less. You can choose to use the jump pack or not during the movement phase. Choosing not to use doesn't change the fact that the model has the deepstrike special rule.

So if you choose to count as having used the jump pack when deepstriking, that's your prerogative. I'd rather use it to re-roll charges and gain hammer of wrath attacks. Which imho is closer to the lore too. If you disagree, perhaps we should take this to you make da call instead.

Try it at a tournament and see what happens. No one is going to agree to that spurious logic... You wont do it to me in a game, I promise you. But if you wanna' sell that snake oil, go right ahead.

Snake Oil huh, ^_- I didn't make the rules. Jump units counting deepstrike as a jump move is a house rule, tournament or not. Some tournaments treat invisibility as BS1 instead of snapshots, that doesn't make it RAW.

I would have to say raw, raptors can use their packs to jump into combat from deep strike , considering the permissive rule set and all. Nothing prohibits it in the rules.

A quick google threw up this Dakka thread:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/459903.page

Seems like they count as having used their jump packs if they deep strike, which makes sense really.

Not sure what faq they are referrring too. Can't find anything like that in either the current ork faq or the brb faq.
If that's from an older faq it's meaningless. Abaddon used to have a faq that prevented him becoming a spawn, but they removed that. He can now become a spawn again.

Eh, im still miffed they screwed the BL. Black Legion Warband....bleh. Eat a 5678756875 GW.

a fat guy wrote:
A quick google threw up this Dakka thread:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/459903.page

Seems like they count as having used their jump packs if they deep strike, which makes sense really.

A thread from almost 5 years ago?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

a fat guy wrote:
A quick google threw up this Dakka thread:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/459903.page

Seems like they count as having used their jump packs if they deep strike, which makes sense really.

A thread from almost 5 years ago?

Yes.


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 Roknar wrote:
Not sure what faq they are referrring too. Can't find anything like that in either the current ork faq or the brb faq.
If that's from an older faq it's meaningless. Abaddon used to have a faq that prevented him becoming a spawn, but they removed that. He can now become a spawn again.

I think this kind of thing gives people an idea of rules as intended, at the very least. We all know that Abaddon shouldn't be capable of turning into either a daemon prince or spawn, it simply seems to be an oversight when they were FAQing up for the second round. In any case, I'm just trying to help

GW change their mind more often than most people change their knickers. Intent five years ago isn't much to go on tbh. And RAW in this case is pretty clear. Also despite having fixed abaddon in a previous faq for this editions codex and most people agreeing it's bollocks, people now play it as written regardless, so why should this be any different? Especially considering this is a choice.
Either way though, I think I made my position clear. I'd rather not derail the thread any further.

its a band aid, a good one, but still a band aid, it doesn't address any of the major issues with chaos space marines, it just closes the gap between the vastly overcosted units and the abilities they get, we are at the end of the day still paying for things other armies get for free.

A prime example is Khorne bezerkers, does the new book make them better, not really, they still cost too much, have to pay for a chainaxe (3pts wtf) and still don't have a delivery system (assault vehicle), other things improved to a greater or lesser extent, an ability that allows oblits to fire the same weapon every turn? should have never been an issue, free marks? should never have had to pay for them when other armies get similar for free (extra wound sarge for elder, chapter tactics for marines etc.).

This isn't a complaint, I like the new book, I just don't have rose tinted glases about it, most of what has been added should never had needed adding, it should be part of the main chaos dex, now if/when they fix that, this book will make chaos near top tier I think.


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 Jancoran wrote:

 Roknar wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 Roknar wrote:

Please provide a source for this. The rules for jump units say they have the deepstrike special rule. They say nothing about counting as having used their jump pack to do so.
The rules for deepstriking say they count as having moved, but again nothing about having used their jump pack.
It makes sense that they would use their packs for deepstriking but that's not actually supported by the rules.

You have to be joking.

Why? According to the fluff every normal assault marine would have deepstrike assault with hammer of wrath. But that's all it is...fluff.
The rules say they have deepstrike, no more, no less. You can choose to use the jump pack or not during the movement phase. Choosing not to use doesn't change the fact that the model has the deepstrike special rule.

So if you choose to count as having used the jump pack when deepstriking, that's your prerogative. I'd rather use it to re-roll charges and gain hammer of wrath attacks. Which imho is closer to the lore too. If you disagree, perhaps we should take this to you make da call instead.

Try it at a tournament and see what happens. No one is going to agree to that spurious logic... You wont do it to me in a game, I promise you. But if you wanna' sell that snake oil, go right ahead.

He could try it and would likely win the argument, as dim as it is, the rules do actually support him, Not HIWPI, but he isn't wrong mate.

 Sheokronath wrote:
I've been really impressed by the Emperor's Children, World Eaters, Black Legion and Death Guard, there's some beautiful stuff in those sections.

I've been very disappointed in the Word Bearers, though. Without the Grand Host detachment the only units that receive any buffs outside of VotLW are Dark Apostles and psykers, meaning your lists don't get any real benefits without these units, which sucks considering I don't like fielding Daemon Princes and am not impressed with malefic daemonology as well as when you consider this is in the same book where another Legion gets FNP, fearless and relentless for free. If they had given the Sorcerers some kind of protection from malefic perils I'd be content. Even with the Grand Host all you get is crusader over the Black Crusade detachment which I'm not thrilled by.

The relics are on average middling.

The Skull of Monarchia is more often than not not going to be of any real use.

The Malefic tome is okay too. Not bad for two meltabombs.

Scripts of Erebus are great for a psychic phase where you must make something happen.

The Baleful Icon confuses me. Maybe in a sorceror bunker? I'm not a fan.

Crown of the Blasphemer is a nice way of getting a 4++ on a Warpsmith. It's a sigil of corruption with Admantium Will, this is weak I think.

Cursed Crozius is a concussive relic blade with PE Imperium. It's alright on a DP for S8 but then the Black Mace is better on a DP.

I really like the warlord traits other than the Fearless+AW one. Voice of Lorgar, Nexus of the Gods, Latent powers and Unholy Firebrand are all fantastic.

Tactical objectives are alright. Again, heavy emphasis on summoning.

Honestly I'm torn. I don't see my army changing to accommodate a Dark Apostle or a Daemon Prince. If I wanted to summon daemons I'd ally in something that can from the Chaos Daemons book where I'd also be able to take relics and icons to support them.

So for me the only thing the base Legion rules added was free VotlW and super hatred for Ultramarines and the Grand Host can give me Crusader.

I've thought about a CAD, but without any cult marines I don't think it'll be too effective.

I think every Word Bearers army that has any degree of success will be a summoning Daemon Prince, which hasn't really helped the Legion, its just allowing you to use units from the superior Daemons book. Personally I'll be running mine as a different Legion.

I honestly prefer the Palanquin Sorcerer myself. I like their Warlord Traits as they're all good "All-around" force multipliers. The Tome is nice, because I get more flexibility, and it lets me ignore the penalty of having to generate a Nurgle Power (though to be fair, Nurgle got some nice buffs this edition), and the Warband feels a lot more playable when you can combine boons, Warlord Buffs, and Psyker blessings in one go.

Generally, you only need one or two HQs for an army anyway; more than that usually leads to it being top-heavy and not having good board presence. That said, I find that Summoning on a 3+ with rerolls makes getting it off on 5 dice that much more comfortable. Combined with a Paradox Herald and an automatic summon on 5 more dice, and you can really put a surprising amount of pressure on your foe.

I think Word Bearers are underrated, and the fact they can take varied Marks but don't *have* to take Marks means they sacrifice raw buffs for flexibility of purpose.

Being a Khorne man myself, I'll ask this since I don't have the TL book: is it better to run World Eaters than Khorne Daemonkin now? Or is it a toss-up? Do either of them really do well on their own, or do they need to bring psychic support via allies?

I've tried running my Daemonkin by themselves, and they usually don't do that well against the good lists from other books. Of course, nowadays I've got a Daemon Knight of Khorne to try and even the odds. Can WE do better?

I'm debating getting TL and that awesome new Kharn model, so any info is appreciated!

The jury is still out on which khorne book is better. WE have way WAY more unit options thanks to being CSM proper and barely need transports, if at all. Daemonkin are tougher thanks to blood tithe fnp and summoning without needing psykers.
My initial thoughts were that WE hit harder and faster, but struggle staying in the game compared to daemonkin.
First turn charges aren't just possible with WE, they are likely to happen. Their artefacts are more aggressive than KDK.
On the other hand KDK don't need psychic scum in order to gain fnp and summon daemons etc. Their losses aren't flat losses like they are with WE.
With a CAD WE get access to all forgeworld units, inlcuding vindicator laser destroyers, fire raptors and sicarans.
Unlike KDK they don't loose anything by adding such a CAD. Taking them alongside KDK would mean having less units with bftbg.

All in all I'd say they're not that different in power, but WE win for me due to being WE lol.