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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/12/16 15:59:47
Subject: So Does Traitor Legions Make CSM Good?
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Virulent Space Marine dedicated to Nurgle
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I've heard some mention of CSM being good with the Traitor Legions supplement. Is this because of formations or new rules? Would this make a Nurgle themed army good?
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"Show me where it says that in the codex!" said Learchus.
"You know brother that I cannot." said Uriel.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/12/16 16:02:08
Subject: So Does Traitor Legions Make CSM Good?
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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Raptors assaulting from deep strike is $$. I'm super jealous.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/12/16 16:06:57
Subject: So Does Traitor Legions Make CSM Good?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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We'll have to wait to see how tournaments go, but CSM definitely got MUCH better! The new rules allow you to field some really fluffy stuff and actually get good use out of it. Death Guard are currently seen as having gotten some of the best upgrades in that even their basic troops are almost as tough as a Plague Marine now, which has major points-savings! Their Psychic Powers are also much better.
Add on top of that the new Decurions and formations for CSM Legions, and you've got some powerful stuff. Go and enjoy!
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/16 16:07:06
Galef wrote:If you refuse to use rock, you will never beat scissors. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/12/16 16:20:21
Subject: So Does Traitor Legions Make CSM Good?
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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I think the biggest take-away is the sheer versatility that the TL book has given CSM. The Legion rules are essentially Chapter Tactics and some of them are just as good or better. Every Legion allows a certain unit type to be Troops and gives out VotLW for free, plus an extra bonus to models with VotLW in most cases Even though it is still early, I definitely think CSM are now at least as good as their Loyalist counterparts. Gladius free transport with Grav-spam lists are really the only thing that CSM cannot match, but otherwise CSM are finally even with the followers of the False Emperor. -
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/16 16:21:15
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/12/16 16:35:31
Subject: So Does Traitor Legions Make CSM Good?
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Agile Revenant Titan
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Galef wrote:
Even though it is still early, I definitely think CSM are now at least as good as their Loyalist counterparts. Gladius free transport with Grav-spam lists are really the only thing that CSM cannot match, but otherwise CSM are finally even with the followers of the False Emperor.
Yes! Finally
Take away the most broken bits of loyalists and they've actually managed to bring a sub-par army up to balance
Now all they need to do is limit Eldar Jetbikes to 1 heavy weapon per 3, make 'Flickerjump' less powerful, re-cost some MCs/GMCs, give the Dark Eldar some good standard formations for their non-coven stuff, sort out whatever's wrong with Orks and Tyranids and we're good!
Am I missing anything?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/12/16 16:38:21
Subject: Re:So Does Traitor Legions Make CSM Good?
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Wicked Warp Spider
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It adds flavour (to me, the Legions "feel" right), there are relatively powerful combos/buffs and there is the additional layer of playing 2 or more for unexpected tactics, something one could not do in 3.5. I bet we did not even started to appreciate all that the book can offer. Said this, the basic Codex has been written by a person either not interested in CSM, or not committed to them as is for Eldar or Space Wolves, or that just hates them, or that just have no idea of how they work (proof: the fact that declared to use Thorpe's Codex as a baseline - preposterous). GW currently does not update codices, but prefers sells us more books and "fix" units with formations. For this reason, if a CSM unit is basically extremely point inefficient, is more than possible that it will remain useless or very circumstantial even after Legions. One example is the Thousand Sons. If you note, the legion that got the best deal was the one with the best marines to begin with. Ah, Death Guard. When all the rest failed, you always saved me in 3rd edition. Never change, you adorable blobs of pus. Still, I can appreciate the book because is still an improvement compared to what else came out for CSM. I just remember with nostalgia one simpler time when one could do all of this with just one book, half the size and one third of the price of ONE current one, let alone six. Also No, joking. I meant
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This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2016/12/16 16:40:48
Generic characters disappearing? Elite units of your army losing options and customizations? No longer finding that motivation to convert?
Your army could suffer Post-Chapterhouse Stress Disorder (PCSD)! If you think that your army is suffering one or more of the aforementioned symptoms, call us at 789-666-1982 for a quick diagnosis! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/12/16 16:50:38
Subject: So Does Traitor Legions Make CSM Good?
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Stone Bonkers Fabricator General
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They got better, much much better, but strong? Probably not.
They certainly got a lot more varied and fun to play.
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Dark Mechanicus and Renegade Iron Hand Dakka Blog
My Dark Mechanicus P&M Blog. Mostly Modeling as I paint very slowly. Lots of kitbashed conversions of marines and a few guard to make up a renegade Iron Hand chapter and Dark Mechanicus Allies. Bionics++ |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/12/16 17:24:54
Subject: So Does Traitor Legions Make CSM Good?
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Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets
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Definitely are good, probably near Tau? Just have to wait and see if this pushes them into the big 3 (Eldar, Daemons, SM).
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/12/16 17:37:13
Subject: So Does Traitor Legions Make CSM Good?
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Auspicious Aspiring Champion of Chaos
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We'll have to wait to see some tournament results, but I feel like CSM are now firmly mid-tier.
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2000 Khorne Bloodbound (Skullfiend Tribe- Aqshy)
1000 Tzeentch Arcanites (Pyrofane Cult - Hysh) in progress
2000 Slaves to Darkness (Ravagers)
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/12/16 17:42:16
Subject: So Does Traitor Legions Make CSM Good?
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Been Around the Block
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Galef wrote:I think the biggest take-away is the sheer versatility that the TL book has given CSM. The Legion rules are essentially Chapter Tactics and some of them are just as good or better.
Every Legion allows a certain unit type to be Troops and gives out VotLW for free, plus an extra bonus to models with VotLW in most cases
Even though it is still early, I definitely think CSM are now at least as good as their Loyalist counterparts. Gladius free transport with Grav-spam lists are really the only thing that CSM cannot match, but otherwise CSM are finally even with the followers of the False Emperor.
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I see nothing in this book that will overtake a white scars gladius in tournament play. Its a nice improvement, and i can finally atleast play my death guard again, but i would trade everything in the book for the ability to take grav guns, not to mention the gladius which still looks to be better than any formation in the legions book.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/12/16 17:48:34
Subject: So Does Traitor Legions Make CSM Good?
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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PyrhusOfEpirus wrote:
I see nothing in this book that will overtake a white scars gladius in tournament play. Its a nice improvement, and i can finally atleast play my death guard again, but i would trade everything in the book for the ability to take grav guns, not to mention the gladius which still looks to be better than any formation in the legions book.
Hence why I mentioned that they still can't match Gladius. But if we take take Gladius out of the equation, CSM are easily as good as, if not better than, any "other" SM list.
I do not see CSM as taking one of the top 3 spots. Eldar, Tau and Gladius Marines will still hold those. However, I would put CSM as top of the middle tier, right beside (if not above) Necrons
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/12/16 17:53:17
Subject: So Does Traitor Legions Make CSM Good?
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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It's because the fundamental marine concept is very flawed in 7th.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/12/16 17:59:07
Subject: So Does Traitor Legions Make CSM Good?
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Member of a Lodge? I Can't Say
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Worth it
Its Pretty Much Wrath of Magnus+ Traitors Hate, IN ONE £20 BOOK!
Plus Extra Stuff for Every Legion
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/12/16 18:10:31
Subject: So Does Traitor Legions Make CSM Good?
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Been Around the Block
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Galef wrote:PyrhusOfEpirus wrote: I see nothing in this book that will overtake a white scars gladius in tournament play. Its a nice improvement, and i can finally atleast play my death guard again, but i would trade everything in the book for the ability to take grav guns, not to mention the gladius which still looks to be better than any formation in the legions book.
Hence why I mentioned that they still can't match Gladius. But if we take take Gladius out of the equation, CSM are easily as good as, if not better than, any "other" SM list. I do not see CSM as taking one of the top 3 spots. Eldar, Tau and Gladius Marines will still hold those. However, I would put CSM as top of the middle tier, right beside (if not above) Necrons - i saw that, but gladius and grav exist. You cant just "take them out of the equation". It would be like me saying im the richest guy in the world if the billions guys with more money than me didnt exist. I guess it depends on what you mean as good, i think now they atleast have the tools that in a one off game at your local store, you could do some minor list tailoring and have a competative list vs almost anybody, but to showup to a large tournament and do really well, im not sure. Ill still use them though since i already have a huge CSM force and im getting sick of playing eldar.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/12/16 18:12:56
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/12/16 18:24:53
Subject: So Does Traitor Legions Make CSM Good?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Death Guard got stupid good with the supplement.
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CaptainStabby wrote:If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote:BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote:Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote:ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/12/16 18:35:23
Subject: Re:So Does Traitor Legions Make CSM Good?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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They certainly got much better and you can now officially build a fluffy army if you play any other legion besides Black Legion.
Some formations are very good and you can build a strong strategy behind some of them.
That being said, Chaos Marines are still a fundamentally flawed army in that they are a close combat army that has almost no transport options and most of the units available are still horrendously overcosted.
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Square Bases for Life!
AoS is pure garbage
Kill Primaris, Kill the Primarchs. They don't belong in 40K
40K is fantasy in space, not sci-fi |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/12/16 18:52:41
Subject: Re:So Does Traitor Legions Make CSM Good?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Brutus_Apex wrote:They certainly got much better and you can now officially build a fluffy army if you play any other legion besides Black Legion.
Some formations are very good and you can build a strong strategy behind some of them.
That being said, Chaos Marines are still a fundamentally flawed army in that they are a close combat army that has almost no transport options and most of the units available are still horrendously overcosted.
That being said the way they wrote the supplement leaves the door open for a new CSM book, and given that it was the first of the new books it might be on the block for an update, especially if a new edition drops.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/12/16 19:51:47
Subject: So Does Traitor Legions Make CSM Good?
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Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine
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PyrhusOfEpirus wrote: Galef wrote:I think the biggest take-away is the sheer versatility that the TL book has given CSM. The Legion rules are essentially Chapter Tactics and some of them are just as good or better.
Every Legion allows a certain unit type to be Troops and gives out VotLW for free, plus an extra bonus to models with VotLW in most cases
Even though it is still early, I definitely think CSM are now at least as good as their Loyalist counterparts. Gladius free transport with Grav-spam lists are really the only thing that CSM cannot match, but otherwise CSM are finally even with the followers of the False Emperor.
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I see nothing in this book that will overtake a white scars gladius in tournament play. Its a nice improvement, and i can finally atleast play my death guard again, but i would trade everything in the book for the ability to take grav guns, not to mention the gladius which still looks to be better than any formation in the legions book.
While the Gladius is indeed superior to the Chaos Warband, you are not looking to our strengths and only be-moaning our "weakness"/ I feel this is a losing a proposition. Not picking at you directly.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/12/16 21:09:43
Subject: So Does Traitor Legions Make CSM Good?
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Crazy Marauder Horseman
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The biggest take away I see from a competitive standpoint would be the Black Legion Decurion + Raptor Talon. Warp Talons that assault from reserves turn 1.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/12/16 22:45:47
Subject: So Does Traitor Legions Make CSM Good?
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Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare
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Personally I think the Cyclopea Cabal is crazy strong. In my competitive games as a loyalist I run a Grav-heavy Gladius, but the Cabals power feels dirtier. "Nice Grav Cents you have there, care to fire at your own models?" So far I'm looking forward to rounding out my list and tactics with the Black Legion, and I'll be adding a Renegade Knight sometime in the future. It's interesting trying to consider how I'd take on a full fledged Gladius though, but I think a well supported Knight will help in that regard.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/16 22:46:24
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/12/16 23:48:15
Subject: So Does Traitor Legions Make CSM Good?
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Rampaging Khorne Dreadnought
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There is still a lot of work to do to bring chaos space marine up to snuff, but this supplement did something much more important.
It made csm FEEL like csm again. It gave each legion a face again. Power wise we're now sitting pretty comfortably in mid to upper mid tier and if you ask me I have good faith that we are likely to improve yet. We're still getting mortarion at some point and I doubt he'll be coming alone after what we saw in Wrath of Magnus. Personally, I'm looking forward to next year, hoping that we are indeed getting a new Abaddon. Ideally he would come with some friends too.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/12/16 23:49:05
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/12/17 01:09:42
Subject: So Does Traitor Legions Make CSM Good?
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Pestilent Plague Marine with Blight Grenade
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I have done nothing but expirement with Black Legion and Death Guard lists, as that is how I modeled all my CSM and I will tell you that DG is feeling really good. I am set up right now to play 2k against my daughters Tau with MSU CSM in a warband with 2 Heldrakes as the Aux and she is playing Hunter Contingent and Riptide Wing. It is the kind of list I would just hand shake and move to the next game before, but this time I feel like I have the option to do some damage and hold objectives. The relics are great. a 10 point Artifact gives you poison 2+ and becomes AP2 on a DP. I mean how awesome is that? On that note, the point cost for the mandatory marks, and the already inflated point costs thanks to mandatory champions puts my model count vs hers about even and she is spamming suits and broadsides. So that tells you something. However I feel like the units can earn their points now. And that is something they could not do before.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/17 01:11:07
10k CSM
1.5k Thousand Sons
2k Death Guard
3k Tau
3k Daemons(Tzeentch and Nurgle)
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/12/17 01:32:45
Subject: So Does Traitor Legions Make CSM Good?
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Fixture of Dakka
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CSM are now a solid, second tier army.
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"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."
This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.
Freelance Ontologist
When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/12/17 12:59:48
Subject: Re:So Does Traitor Legions Make CSM Good?
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Pestilent Plague Marine with Blight Grenade
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Does anyone here actually play csm?
CSM are much better but each legion is regulated to one or two tricks.
Death guard are my primary army, stop with this "csm units are cheap plague marines" nonsense.
Plague Marines are so much better its rediculous.
For 23 ppm, fearless, defensive and assault grenades, poison, three attacks when not charging, relentless, WS and Init modifier to enemy, and if you play a big enough game they also get a toughness modifier.
The regular csm nurgle marine is not fearless, has less attacks, is going to strike at init 3, no poisen, and is leadership nine at best....
If your source of inspiration for heavy weapons is a death guard marine then you are doing csm wrong lol. Oblits, heldrakes, vindicators, and termies are much better in those roles.
If obsec is your thing fine, csm deqth guard are ok at that, but iron warriors are much better in that role. Stubborn and 6+ fnp is awesome for obsec.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/12/17 13:11:20
Subject: So Does Traitor Legions Make CSM Good?
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Slaanesh Chosen Marine Riding a Fiend
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Yes, it is a big help. As mentioned DG have become the go to Legion. The AL got some neat tricks and can apply pressure from the outset due to mass infiltration. Raptors charging from deep strike is fairly scary, even if it is a disordered charge and the EC, albeit pricey via the icon, can get practically army wide 4+ FnP and +1 strength to sonic weapons.
Just a few examples.
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Please note, for those of you who play Chaos Daemons as a faction the term "Daemon" is potentially offensive. Instead, please play codex "Chaos: Mortally Challenged". Thank you. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/12/17 13:24:22
Subject: So Does Traitor Legions Make CSM Good?
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Boom! Leman Russ Commander
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Smell's like the common "crap codex OP supplement" trick... GW what have you become... can one play CSM with only the supplement?
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40k: Necrons/Imperial Guard/ Space marines
Bolt Action: Germany/ USA
Project Z.
"The Dakka Dive Bar is the only place you'll hear what's really going on in the underhive. Sure you might not find a good amasec but they grill a mean groxburger. Just watch for ratlings being thrown through windows and you'll be alright." Ciaphas Cain, probably. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/12/17 13:40:35
Subject: So Does Traitor Legions Make CSM Good?
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Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer
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From what I've understood, yes for the most part; not Eldar levels of S-tier (but what is?) but probably B- to A tier depending on what legion you pick. What keeps me from jumping wholesale back in is the lack of a decent miniature range, and I can't really use 30k stuff since I would do Death Guard, and I play at a GW store so can't use third party bits (although I could likely swing that one)
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/17 13:41:29
- Wayne
Formerly WayneTheGame |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/12/17 18:18:57
Subject: So Does Traitor Legions Make CSM Good?
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Shas'o Commanding the Hunter Kadre
Olympia, WA
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MrVulcanator wrote:I've heard some mention of CSM being good with the Traitor Legions supplement. Is this because of formations or new rules? Would this make a Nurgle themed army good?
I would say yes. Magnus is an absolute beast (I have played against him already) and the Raptor Talon is awesome.
ODDLY, the Raptor Talon is actually best when played i nthe new Black Legion Super Formation. it allows the warlords unit to auto drop on turn one and the others to drop turn one on a 3+. The reason its not better i nthe Night Lords is that the Night Lords disallow Marks. So you cannot buff your Talon up.
I am kind of surprised that the Black Legion got this ability and not the Night Lords but it does force an interesting choice. Re-roll charges from deep strike oooor.... get deep strikes on turn one with Marks.
Death Guard are looking really good in Traitor Legions. In fact most of the stuff looked darn good to me. Being a Night Lords player, I am naturally excited. the Raptor Talon is good either way but I'll have to play it in both versions to see how I like it. Black Legion also has a much larger "tax" in terms of mandatory units than the Night Lords do, so it could be that I can simply afford more Raptors and they are going to be Troops Choices. One thing i thought was funny though was that the Raptors are troops choices, but not Obsec unless you take them outside the Talon. So GW is doing a good job of balancing and forcing Genrrals to make choices which has been more and more their pattern. The Raptor Talon vs. normal Troops Choices, Night Lords vs. Black Legion conundrums all combine to kind of allow different styles to shine without advantaging any one too much.
That aside, I just am really excited about it. Night Lords are the lords of terrifying cvictory once more!
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Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/12/17 18:24:30
Subject: Re:So Does Traitor Legions Make CSM Good?
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Furious Fire Dragon
A forest
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sfshilo wrote:Does anyone here actually play csm?
CSM are much better but each legion is regulated to one or two tricks.
Death guard are my primary army, stop with this " csm units are cheap plague marines" nonsense.
Plague Marines are so much better its rediculous.
For 23 ppm, fearless, defensive and assault grenades, poison, three attacks when not charging, relentless, WS and Init modifier to enemy, and if you play a big enough game they also get a toughness modifier.
The regular csm nurgle marine is not fearless, has less attacks, is going to strike at init 3, no poisen, and is leadership nine at best....
If your source of inspiration for heavy weapons is a death guard marine then you are doing csm wrong lol. Oblits, heldrakes, vindicators, and termies are much better in those roles.
If obsec is your thing fine, csm deqth guard are ok at that, but iron warriors are much better in that role. Stubborn and 6+ fnp is awesome for obsec.
This is what I was thinking, as I saw some comments that DG are so much better than plague marines now
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/12/17 18:37:15
Subject: So Does Traitor Legions Make CSM Good?
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Rampaging Khorne Dreadnought
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Jancoran wrote:
I am kind of surprised that the Black Legion got this ability and not the Night Lords but it does force an interesting choice. Re-roll charges from deep strike oooor.... get deep strikes on turn one with Marks.
Not sure what you mean? Raptors talons can re-roll the charge either way due to not needing to use their jump packs on the turn they deepstrike. Being a jump unit gives them deepstrike. You wouldn't be able to put them into deepstrike reserve otherwise.
All NL raptors have over BL ones is stealth, which isn't really that much of a boon on raptors. Compared to, say, bikes who get a jink save. Unless you have them out on turn 1 and you're not using their formation rule to deepstrike and charge, but then you're better off using the ObSec raptors from the warband. BL also get Hatred and crusader so they hit harder in CC even without marks and they effectively have +1-3 iniative for sweeping advances. Plus they get banners and marks and maybe even legacy of ruin buffs as those require icons the NLs can't take (other than vengance). And an icon of Wrath would also let them re-roll later.
NL Talons have night vision and better fear tests, but night vision is borderline pointless on a raptor Talon and fear is...well..fear.
A NL raptor Talon doesn't have much to offer compared to a BL talon. Not speaking about raptors in general, just the Talon.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/17 18:39:08
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