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I have no strong feelings either way regarding the Ultramarines or the grey Knights.

Part of me loves the Vlka Venryka part of me hates the bs hypocricy and the fact that they always see themselves as being completly in the right.

I loved the get the feth over yourself your not special little speech that flesh tearer chaplain gave Ragnar Blackmane in the Ragnar Blackmane novel.

 Quickjager wrote:
A large amount of people hate them because *everyone* else does. GK have had a lot of their outstanding fluff already explained people just never looked it for it. Same for Ultramarines, though the Space Wolves... they haven't got lucky in terms of fluff at all.

The big thing that has annoyed me out of them all is the fact draigo and logar had demon weapons reforged for them. Like wtf, why do that.

Also Dakka Wolf Black Templer are canon bros with the Grey Knights, you know that psychic hating chapter.

Thanks. I've only read a few things about Deathwatch.

I don't dislike Grey Knights and Ultramarines at all. I don't have much to say about the former, but the latter could get less 'main character' exposition and give other chapters more space (including ICs). But I admire the fact their sector is pretty nice for the average Imperial citizen, compared to those that live outside.

Now, Space Wolves... mostly, their hipocrisy involving psykers. Before reading 30k BL books, I only joked about their furry stuff. Now I really don't like them at all. In fact, in our group we have a strange phenomenon: if a new guy starts playing with Space Wolves, he won't stick around for long. This already happened with 3 guys... I swear I have nothing to do with that!

DeffDred wrote:Space Wolves are dumb because they went from vikings in space to werewolves in space.

Grey Knights are dumb because they never deserved their own codex and were better as a single 5 man terminator squad available to imperial forces.

Ultramarines are the greatest thing ever. To say otherwise is heresy.

This guy.

Sgt_Smudge wrote: I think being incorruptible is a good thing, but only if it shows how valuable they are, and for each loss, they are losing a very valuable and hard to replace asset. Specialising them to be close to *only* daemonhunters would be a good thing, perhaps replacing their Nemesis weaponry to be incorporeal blades that can only affect daemonic tissue (represented in game as ignoring Invulnerable saves but being AP- ?)

I hold in my hand deamonhunter codex ed 3.5. The first book to feature Grey knights and honestly the best codex to represent them. What follows is based on the changes they've gone through that have hurt or helped them. First an overall rule set.

Special rules: The Grey knight used to have 4 noteworthy special rules. Rites of excorsism, the aegis, the shrouding and demonic infestation. Let's discuss these quickly.
Rites of excorsism: all deamons got -1 ld when GK where present. Deamons that charge GK charges as though it was difficult terrain.
The Aegis: minor psychic psychic powers have no effect on GK. Major psychic powers have a roll off with the characters ld +1d6 vs the targeted GK:s ld +1d6. If GK wins the effect is nullified.
The shrouding: GK units can only be fired upon if they are within 3d6X3 inches (9-54inches) of the firing unit.
Demonic infestation: all Deamons (except greater Deamons and Deamon princes) have the sustained attack special rule. If a demonic unit is destroyed it re enters the field from the opponents table edge on the following turn.

After theese there was one more rule of note. Anyone fighting GK could give an upgrade worth 100p to a HQ character. This would give said character str 6-8 and if he died or failed a ld test a greater Deamon with random stats would take the characters place. This rule also included the option of buying a deamon pack for 100p with 5 deamons (could be buffed to 15) with random stats that'd deep strike on the table.

One more rule, if an Inquisitor was part of the force and that Inquisitor used Deamonhosts then GK could not be chosen to be a part of the army.

Why this is relevant: if you look at this as a whole it's clear that GK:s business was to deal with deamons. Allowing your opponent specific deamon units and giving deamons endless number really felt like an attempt to balance the GK vs their Nemesis.

New things: special rules aren't that big a deal anymore, just look at the rulebook. However the GK has been given some new units.
The purifiers: Honestly I love the idea that theese guys are actually Senseis, the Emperors offspring. Since all psykers are sent to Terra for the soul binding it does makes sence that Senseis can be identified, never told what they are and sent to join the GK. We know the Emperors offspring is a thing so why not? Their abilities are remarkably similar. Great lore if so.
The Dreadnight: makes sence from a lore point of view. Why wouldn't the GK have a unit designed to fight greater deamons? Though it looks a bit silly.
Supreme grand master: why would there be enough GK to warrant this guy? Instead of having bother Captains and one grand master?

Why I like GK: a chapter that's specifically focussed on deamonhunting where every single members is a psyker is badass. You really don't have to add much more stories to it, it's awesome.

Why I hate GK: Why would you need to Convince us that it's awesome? GK don't need all theese Mary Sue stories. Imagine the death count they must suffer on every mission. Imagine their recruits, every single GK potential dooming a world by accidentily opening up warp rifts. But most of all I hate that they are no longer the chamber militant of the Ordo Malleus. It made perfect sense. Recruits and deployment being managed by the Inquisition and they being the Inquisitions trump card VS deamons, instead they come across as a wannabe chapter that's not 100% sure what they should be doing. No one should have the authority to deploy them other then the Inquisition. Also Draigo is a joke. What does he eat? When does he sleep?

Ultramarines: I always liked that the Ultramarines where versatile tyranids specialist with the most stable gene seed. That's all they needed, and they just happened to have the probably strategically best psyker in the universe. Tribute to Tigirius for stopping uncountable waaaghs and Tyranid fleets. Then you have half of their 1st company being anti tyranids experts, currently only represented by Cassius.

Space Wolves: they've just been given to much content and been put into the spotlight way to much. Go back to being vikings in space. Their gene seed is unstable, bringing about wulfens. However the animal spirits on Fenris might actually be legit. They can be manifestations of. Psychic Fenris animals over time in the warp, or a result of the SW believing them to be just that for 10k years.

Overall: all theese factions have far to much Mary Sue and been given ridicilous content. They don't need to be forced down our throats as awesome, though I suppose it helps sales.

Cassor the Damned wrote:
I just want to make it clear this is not a thread for bashing on peoples legions. I make this thread in the vain and unlikely hope that GW will see it and understand what they need to change about these 3 chapters to stop people feeling such hatred for them. If I'm honest, I dislike Space Wolves. Mostly because I've never particularly got on with boisterous people who boast about a lot of nothing. Also because they have some units that are just incredibly op e.g TWC and Wulfven. But the main reason I dislike them, is because they're so easy to mock. The furry jokes just roll of the tongue without even trying. In my opinion, if GW wants this chapter to have the respect it deserves then it seriously needs to limit it's use of the word "wolf" in their codex.

Space Wolves are pretty self explanatory, their writing is simply atrocious at its most basic level, they try to be too many contradictory things, and just come off awful in general, particularly when coupled with things like TWC's and Logan Claus and the like that turned an iconographic theme and jumped the shark with it.

The Ultramarines were kinda the poster boy forever, and got associated with newbies and little kids, between their bright colors and being "basic" they tired many people quickly. To add fuel to that fire, the 2008 SM codex had terrible writing that made them out to be godlike figures of worship and holding some sort of power over other chapters that rubbed many the wrong way.

Grey Knights had a similar issue, with their fluff getting ramped up to 11 in some pretty stupid and poorly thought out ways, coupled with some highly gimmicky army rules.

Mostly this all comes down to authors writing rules and fluff for these factions in the manner of an overly-stimulated 12 year old's internet fanfic and taking themes and iconography and cranking it to ridiculous extremes that break the suspension of disbelief.

 Vaktathi wrote:
...Grey Knights had a similar issue, with their fluff getting ramped up to 11 in some pretty stupid and poorly thought out ways, coupled with some highly gimmicky army rules...

And then they took out most of the gimmicky army rules and the whole house of cards came crashing down, so now we get to hate our own Codex too.

SW: too much wolf.

Ultramarines (to anyone who hasn't read know no fear/Betrayer) and Grey Knights: https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Matthew_Ward (NSFW)

That article sums it up.