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zalak wrote:
Guard have the best snipers in the game, the wyvern. That thing is the best character hunter that I can think of and heck it tends to wipe the rest of the squad and only cost 70ish points.

Lol, I cannot argue with that.

The one other advantage of Ratlings though... you'll put them down on the table, at which point your opponent will say "What in the world are those?!" Could be a cool unit to field simply because they are so seldom seen.

While I like the idea of sniper rifles, in game terms, I think they stink. Pinning tests actually used to mean something, and sniper rifles could at least have a use in that regard. Now, not so much. Everything out there has leadership 10 or fearless.

 cuda1179 wrote:
While I like the idea of sniper rifles, in game terms, I think they stink. Pinning tests actually used to mean something, and sniper rifles could at least have a use in that regard. Now, not so much. Everything out there has leadership 10 or fearless.

I'm curious when this was.. 3rd edition maybe?

 cuda1179 wrote:
While I like the idea of sniper rifles, in game terms, I think they stink. Pinning tests actually used to mean something, and sniper rifles could at least have a use in that regard. Now, not so much. Everything out there has leadership 10 or fearless.

Uhh... I play Sisters of Battle.

Barring certain HQ units, I guarantee you that none of my units are either Leadership 10 or Fearless.

 Pouncey wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:
While I like the idea of sniper rifles, in game terms, I think they stink. Pinning tests actually used to mean something, and sniper rifles could at least have a use in that regard. Now, not so much. Everything out there has leadership 10 or fearless.

Uhh... I play Sisters of Battle.

Barring certain HQ units, I guarantee you that none of my units are either Leadership 10 or Fearless.

You can say that about every army.... Barring X and nothing has Y.

pm713 wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:
While I like the idea of sniper rifles, in game terms, I think they stink. Pinning tests actually used to mean something, and sniper rifles could at least have a use in that regard. Now, not so much. Everything out there has leadership 10 or fearless.

Uhh... I play Sisters of Battle.

Barring certain HQ units, I guarantee you that none of my units are either Leadership 10 or Fearless.

You can say that about every army.... Barring X and nothing has Y.

Considering X is literally two models at most, and Y consists of literally every unit in my army that is not led by one of those two Independent Characters, I think it's worth mentioning in this case.

 Pouncey wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:
While I like the idea of sniper rifles, in game terms, I think they stink. Pinning tests actually used to mean something, and sniper rifles could at least have a use in that regard. Now, not so much. Everything out there has leadership 10 or fearless.

Uhh... I play Sisters of Battle.

Barring certain HQ units, I guarantee you that none of my units are either Leadership 10 or Fearless.

You can say that about every army.... Barring X and nothing has Y.

Considering X is literally two models at most, and Y consists of literally every unit in my army that is not led by one of those two Independent Characters, I think it's worth mentioning in this case.

Correct me if I'm wrong but one of the 2 models is fearless, very cheap and an independent character isn't it?

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:
While I like the idea of sniper rifles, in game terms, I think they stink. Pinning tests actually used to mean something, and sniper rifles could at least have a use in that regard. Now, not so much. Everything out there has leadership 10 or fearless.

I'm curious when this was.. 3rd edition maybe?

The value of sniper rifles in 3rd was generally that they always wounded on a 4 regardless of toughness, so they were a fairly cheap weapon that could put wounds on high-toughness models. They may also have always hit on a 2, due to the fact that they are literally SNIPER weapons, and I recall some hub-bub about a reduction in accuracy at some point because they were changed to rely on ballistic skill.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pm713 wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:
While I like the idea of sniper rifles, in game terms, I think they stink. Pinning tests actually used to mean something, and sniper rifles could at least have a use in that regard. Now, not so much. Everything out there has leadership 10 or fearless.

Uhh... I play Sisters of Battle.

Barring certain HQ units, I guarantee you that none of my units are either Leadership 10 or Fearless.

You can say that about every army.... Barring X and nothing has Y.

Considering X is literally two models at most, and Y consists of literally every unit in my army that is not led by one of those two Independent Characters, I think it's worth mentioning in this case.

Correct me if I'm wrong but one of the 2 models is fearless, very cheap and an independent character isn't it?

Yeah.

My point is that it doesn't matter because I can only take 2 of them at most, and their leadership and fearless does not apply whatsoever to any squad she has not joined, so most of my army literally cannot benefit from her near-immunity to pinning tests because I have way more than 2 infantry squads.

When i faced them i just shot with my scourge unit (which only had about 3 scourge left) and then assaulted them in melee and the ratlings died super easy. Scourge have grenades so they attack at initiative 5. I can't remember but i think the ratlings ran away and possibly off the board. Funny how snipers are so vulnerable to melee in almost every case and guard aren't exactly melee powerhouses. Keep in mind i stopped playing them in 5th but my games against them and DKoK in 7th haven't shown any real melee prowess besides swarm some mediocre dudes in combat as a last resort and hope you weigh em down (which usually fails against things like incubi, grotesques, reavers and possibly if they get charged by scourge). It's almost like fighting cultists. Even if your basic guys assault them you usually win the fight.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
When i faced them i just shot with my scourge unit (which only had about 3 scourge left) and then assaulted them in melee and the ratlings died super easy. Scourge have grenades so they attack at initiative 5. I can't remember but i think the ratlings ran away and possibly off the board. Funny how snipers are so vulnerable to melee in almost every case and guard aren't exactly melee powerhouses. Keep in mind i stopped playing them in 5th but my games against them and DKoK in 7th haven't shown any real melee prowess besides swarm some mediocre dudes in combat as a last resort and hope you weigh em down. It's almost like fighting cultists.

You're expecting ranged combat specialists to excel at melee combat?

 Pouncey wrote:

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
When i faced them i just shot with my scourge unit (which only had about 3 scourge left) and then assaulted them in melee and the ratlings died super easy. Scourge have grenades so they attack at initiative 5. I can't remember but i think the ratlings ran away and possibly off the board. Funny how snipers are so vulnerable to melee in almost every case and guard aren't exactly melee powerhouses. Keep in mind i stopped playing them in 5th but my games against them and DKoK in 7th haven't shown any real melee prowess besides swarm some mediocre dudes in combat as a last resort and hope you weigh em down. It's almost like fighting cultists.

You're expecting ranged combat specialists to excel at melee combat?

No i'm saying all snipers in general including space marine ones. Sometimes people tend to forget that if snipers are picking away at you all you have to do is run in hard and fast and melee that garbage. I even used to do that when i fought eldar with imperial guard way back when. Rangers/pathfinders tend to go down just as easily. I recall a friend at one point in 5th saying "You won't kill these guys all game." (referring to his rangers/pathfinders in my face) so i assaulted them with a couple platoon commander units and killed them in a couple turns.

In many cases guard have some melee specialists (ogryns and bullgryns) but i dunno how good they are.

pm713 wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:
While I like the idea of sniper rifles, in game terms, I think they stink. Pinning tests actually used to mean something, and sniper rifles could at least have a use in that regard. Now, not so much. Everything out there has leadership 10 or fearless.

Uhh... I play Sisters of Battle.

Barring certain HQ units, I guarantee you that none of my units are either Leadership 10 or Fearless.

You can say that about every army.... Barring X and nothing has Y.

Considering X is literally two models at most, and Y consists of literally every unit in my army that is not led by one of those two Independent Characters, I think it's worth mentioning in this case.

Correct me if I'm wrong but one of the 2 models is fearless, very cheap and an independent character isn't it?

Yeah.

My point is that it doesn't matter because I can only take 2 of them at most, and their leadership and fearless does not apply whatsoever to any squad she has not joined, so most of my army literally cannot benefit from her near-immunity to pinning tests because I have way more than 2 infantry squads.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
When i faced them i just shot with my scourge unit (which only had about 3 scourge left) and then assaulted them in melee and the ratlings died super easy. Scourge have grenades so they attack at initiative 5. I can't remember but i think the ratlings ran away and possibly off the board. Funny how snipers are so vulnerable to melee in almost every case and guard aren't exactly melee powerhouses. Keep in mind i stopped playing them in 5th but my games against them and DKoK in 7th haven't shown any real melee prowess besides swarm some mediocre dudes in combat as a last resort and hope you weigh em down. It's almost like fighting cultists.

You're expecting ranged combat specialists to excel at melee combat?

No i'm saying all snipers in general including space marine ones. Sometimes people tend to forget that if snipers are picking away at you all you have to do is run in hard and fast and melee that garbage. I even used to do that when i fought eldar with imperial guard way back when. Rangers/pathfinders tend to go down just as easily. I recall a friend at one point in 5th saying "You won't kill these guys all game." (referring to his rangers/pathfinders in my face) so i assaulted them with a couple platoon commander units and killed them in a couple turns.

In many cases guard have some melee specialists (ogryns and bullgryns) but i dunno how good they are.

That's kind of the point though. You're going to have to tie up a turn of shooting and possibly assault to eliminate three hobbits with sniper rifles.

 General Kroll wrote:

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
When i faced them i just shot with my scourge unit (which only had about 3 scourge left) and then assaulted them in melee and the ratlings died super easy. Scourge have grenades so they attack at initiative 5. I can't remember but i think the ratlings ran away and possibly off the board. Funny how snipers are so vulnerable to melee in almost every case and guard aren't exactly melee powerhouses. Keep in mind i stopped playing them in 5th but my games against them and DKoK in 7th haven't shown any real melee prowess besides swarm some mediocre dudes in combat as a last resort and hope you weigh em down. It's almost like fighting cultists.

You're expecting ranged combat specialists to excel at melee combat?

No i'm saying all snipers in general including space marine ones. Sometimes people tend to forget that if snipers are picking away at you all you have to do is run in hard and fast and melee that garbage. I even used to do that when i fought eldar with imperial guard way back when. Rangers/pathfinders tend to go down just as easily. I recall a friend at one point in 5th saying "You won't kill these guys all game." (referring to his rangers/pathfinders in my face) so i assaulted them with a couple platoon commander units and killed them in a couple turns.

In many cases guard have some melee specialists (ogryns and bullgryns) but i dunno how good they are.

That's kind of the point though. You're going to have to tie up a turn of shooting and possibly assault to eliminate three hobbits with sniper rifles.

Closer to 7-10 but yeah i guess. For what they did i imagine they weren't worth it though. Don't they take up an elite slot? I don't think guard have great elites if i remember right but it didn't do much for it.

pm713 wrote:
Unless you're playing games with a limit of 170 points you can take more than two.

Wait, Priests give Fearless? I don't use them, they clash strongly with my army's thematics.

I meant Celestine.

So you can only give fearless to some units? Funnily that's the same thing with most armies I know

"Only some" requires "not all".

So, uh, just like, aim your snipers at the ones that are not effectively immune to Pinning? Use your strengths where they'll work best, not where they'll work worst. You know how to do that, otherwise you'd be firing heavy bolters against Baneblades and complaining that it's not working.

Could always use the snipers to, you know, take out the priests with precision shots...

 General Kroll wrote:
Could always use the snipers to, you know, take out the priests with precision shots...

That too.

Taking out vital personnel like commanders is literally the entire PURPOSE of snipers in a military. They were never, EVER intended to simply massacre an entire enemy force on their own.

You hear about things in real life where a whole bunch of snipers get together in one place to wipe out a large enemy force, frankly, that's just because you can't send in the Marines, or, like, a Predator drone, to do the same thing, because there are probably civilian hostages involved, and the snipers can be counted on to hit ONLY the enemies and NOT anything else.

 General Kroll wrote:
Could always use the snipers to, you know, take out the priests with precision shots...

If you can get around their 2+ LOS!

The vindicare seems to be the only real sniper in 40k anyway.

 CrownAxe wrote:

 General Kroll wrote:
Could always use the snipers to, you know, take out the priests with precision shots...

If you can get around their 2+ LOS!

Why do Precision Shots allow for the concept of a Look Out, Sir! roll at all?

 Pouncey wrote:

 General Kroll wrote:
Could always use the snipers to, you know, take out the priests with precision shots...

That too.

Taking out vital personnel like commanders is literally the entire PURPOSE of snipers in a military. They were never, EVER intended to simply massacre an entire enemy force on their own.

You hear about things in real life where a whole bunch of snipers get together in one place to wipe out a large enemy force, frankly, that's just because you can't send in the Marines, or, like, a Predator drone, to do the same thing, because there are probably civilian hostages involved, and the snipers can be counted on to hit ONLY the enemies and NOT anything else.

Well it depends if you have a *marksman* or *sharpshooter/sniper*

Snipers in reality should be single person units with a non protected LOS, with massive buffs to infiltration and cover saves (albeit in the game sniper only units would work too. While Marksmen should be involved in infantry units to take out the liked of heavy and special weapons. I think for sense of simplification, ignoring LOS would be a benefit for them.

 Pouncey wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 General Kroll wrote:
Could always use the snipers to, you know, take out the priests with precision shots...

If you can get around their 2+ LOS!

Why do Precision Shots allow for the concept of a Look Out, Sir! roll at all?

Precision shots from a sniper should have a modifier like the vindicare does: -2 on their los roll. Would make snipers a little more useful.
In addition all shots from a sniper weapon should just automatically have precision.

 n0t_u wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 General Kroll wrote:
Could always use the snipers to, you know, take out the priests with precision shots...

If you can get around their 2+ LOS!

Why do Precision Shots allow for the concept of a Look Out, Sir! roll at all?

Precision shots from a sniper should have a modifier like the vindicare does: -2 on their los roll. Would make snipers a little more useful.
In addition all shots from a sniper weapon should just automatically have precision.

No, I mean you have a special rule intended to let your attacks be directed onto particular models, and it's negated by the same rule that protects the characters from all other forms of attacks by letting the attacks be allocated away from the character.

Just... Why? Like, at all?

Because if the model you want to get Precision Shots on is the closest model to the squad shooting at it, then frankly ALL shots are Precision Shots.

 Pouncey wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 General Kroll wrote:
Could always use the snipers to, you know, take out the priests with precision shots...

If you can get around their 2+ LOS!

Why do Precision Shots allow for the concept of a Look Out, Sir! roll at all?

Precision shots from a sniper should have a modifier like the vindicare does: -2 on their los roll. Would make snipers a little more useful.
In addition all shots from a sniper weapon should just automatically have precision.

No, I mean you have a special rule intended to let your attacks be directed onto particular models, and it's negated by the same rule that protects the characters from all other forms of attacks by letting the attacks be allocated away from the character.

Just... Why? Like, at all?

Because if the model you want to get Precision Shots on is the closest model to the squad shooting at it, then frankly ALL shots are Precision Shots.

I'm agreeing with you, just a little wishlisting.
The point of the sniper is it's to pick out models in a unit and a mechanic meant to protect chracters due to poor placement and removing from the closest ends up really weakening snipers a lot.

 Pouncey wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 General Kroll wrote:
Could always use the snipers to, you know, take out the priests with precision shots...

If you can get around their 2+ LOS!

Why do Precision Shots allow for the concept of a Look Out, Sir! roll at all?

Precision shots from a sniper should have a modifier like the vindicare does: -2 on their los roll. Would make snipers a little more useful.
In addition all shots from a sniper weapon should just automatically have precision.

No, I mean you have a special rule intended to let your attacks be directed onto particular models, and it's negated by the same rule that protects the characters from all other forms of attacks by letting the attacks be allocated away from the character.

Just... Why? Like, at all?

Because if the model you want to get Precision Shots on is the closest model to the squad shooting at it, then frankly ALL shots are Precision Shots.

It's a little frustrating. But it is worth remembering there are a few 'priority' targets without look out sir; special/heavy/power weapon troopers as an example. Precision shots can also be used to remove casualties in such a way that opens up special/heavy/power weapon troopers or characters to shooting/assault from other units. It is also useful in creating distance between enemy melee units and your own squads. You can also use precision shots to avoid having to allocate wound onto the tankiest models in the squad too.

You both make good points. : D

I actually hadn't though about using it to get rid of normal troopers to then open the squad up to being shot at by another unit and thus getting what I want to hit killed.

Ratlings suffer from the same two big problems as heavy weapons squads: low durability and low leadership.

The low toughness for ratlings and low wound count for heavy weapons squads makes them too easy to kill. If HWT could take camo cloaks, they might actually be useful.

Ratlings and HWT are specialist units and yet they're totally unreliable when it comes to following orders. It would be great if you could reliably use orders to give them tank hunter or precision shot or ignore cover. But at ld6 they're more likely than not to fail the leadership check, and you can't even give ratlings a commissar.

If heavy weapons teams were still 6 models, and a commissar could execute a loader, that'd be expensive pointswise, but an okay strategy. As it is the commissar is going to execute 1/3rd of the squad if you fail a leadership test!

Ratlings are great...for giving your opponent first blood. And not much else.