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mrhappyface wrote: Just because someone is loyal to the Emperor does not mean that their actions done in the name of anger and hatred do not fuel the blood god. Perhaps Ka'bandha's constant reappearances were used to insight rage within the primarch, Khorne would probably be smiling to himself as Sanguinius' rage towards Ka'bandha fueled his fight to victory. Who is to say Khorne would not drain Ka'bandha's power in order to make the fight fairer seeing as though he is the God of martial pride? Who can know the mind's of the Gods and what plans they are formulating, for all we know everything that has ever happened since the dawn of minkind has fallen into place according to the grand plan? What if there is only one chaos God and these 4 'Gods' are mearly projections used to carry out the grand plan? What if...
mrhappyface wrote: Just because someone is loyal to the Emperor does not mean that their actions done in the name of anger and hatred do not fuel the blood god. Perhaps Ka'bandha's constant reappearances were used to insight rage within the primarch, Khorne would probably be smiling to himself as Sanguinius' rage towards Ka'bandha fueled his fight to victory. Who is to say Khorne would not drain Ka'bandha's power in order to make the fight fairer seeing as though he is the God of martial pride? Who can know the mind's of the Gods and what plans they are formulating, for all we know everything that has ever happened since the dawn of minkind has fallen into place according to the grand plan? What if there is only one chaos God and these 4 'Gods' are mearly projections used to carry out the grand plan? What if...
I'm rambeling again aren't I?
TL;DR - do not assume to understand the intentions of the Gods.
Khorne didn't need Ka'bandha to fall for Sanguinius to hate. He already hated the traitors and he was going to die very soon. What was the point in a bit more rage when the guy would be dead by next week? Also, if Lorgar could defeat Angrath then Sanguinius did not need Ka'bandha to be nerfed in order to beat him lol. They may fuel Khorne, but Khorne wants the best warrior at his side. Why would he want Sanguinius if he couldn't beat Ka bandha fair and square? It was a fair fight so he could decide who he wanted, Ka bandha lost and Sanguinius still stayed loyal. Sanguinius was the better warrior I'm afraid, to argue otherwise is heresy
"For the love of Baal!" - Captain Zedrenael of the 8th Company before declaring a charge against Kharn and his Bezerkers.
Fang, son of Great Fang, the traitor we seek, The laws of the brethren say this: That only the king sees the crown of the gods, And he, the usurper, must die.
Mother earth is pregnant for the third time, for y'all have knocked her up. I have tasted the maggots in the mind of the universe, but I was not offended. For I knew I had to rise above it all, or drown in my own gak.
Also, once again, only a fool claims to understand what the Gods' intentions are.
What if I told you that the Gods intentions are what they are written as in the fluff....*insert morpheus matrix meme here*
What if I told you that the fluff makes no mention of what any of the Gods intentions are and specifically calls out that no one knows what their plans are?
Ghorros wrote: The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
Marmatag wrote: All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
The point I'm making is no one knows what the Gods intentions are, and yet you keep designing scenarios to show the gods somehow fixed the fight. It has no evidence and thus no substance. Alot of people hide behind the whole "you don't know what the gods are actually planning" argument and in some instances it fits pretty well. Like when people say Chaos wanted Horus to fail. However, this one seems abit off kilter to me. Suggesting that Khorne would somehow hamstring one of his greatest warriors for what is a very tenuous reason makes no sense. Khorne cares not from whence the blood flows, only that it flows. So why would he intervene in the fight? He cares not who the victor is, only that there is one. Also, suggesting the God of martial honour would do such an underhand trick is like saying that Slaanesh would go cold turkey from drugs or join an Alcoholics anonymous group. Or Nurgle inventing a cure for the galaxys deadliest disease. Or Tzeentch not being an Obama supporter (hehe). It goes against every bit of pre established fluff that we know about Khorne. Caring not from whence the blood flows has always been a huge part of his mantra and one of the reasons Kharn the Betrayer is his greatest mortal champion. What I'm also saying is that there is tonnes of fluff to suggest that Ka bandha wanted to kill Sanguinius and none to suggest otherwise. What I'm saying is that you are right in saying that no one knows what the Gods planned, but I'm also saying what you suggest is highly unlikely and it is simply much more believable that Ka bandha did his best to kill Sanguinius but failed. He cast him down on Terra and would have executed him if not for Sanguinius' grim determination. Another hing to remember is that Lorgar slew Angrath without Angrath being nerfed. To suggest Sanguinius couldn't kill another Bloodthirster without it being nerfed also goes against all pre-established fluff we have on Sanguinius and Lorgar. One the greatest warrior primarch and the other the worst.
"For the love of Baal!" - Captain Zedrenael of the 8th Company before declaring a charge against Kharn and his Bezerkers.
And what I am saying is that your assumption that a Chaos God's actions are sensible and conform to mortal understanding of the Gods is missunderstanding Chaos in it's purest form.
Khorne, according to mortal understanding, does not care about his followers as long as the blood flows and wouldn't create any secret plans. This suggests that mortals understand chaos, it suggests those who right about chaos understand chaos, it suggests that beings of chaos conform to pre-determined agandas; it's chaos! It's the warp! These are beings from another dimension who do not operate under the sames laws we do, we have no idea what they want or what they are capable of. We beings bound by the laws of our universe are toy things to the Gods and it is futile for us to attempt to understand them.
TL;DR - It's all chaos! The fluff doesn't matter! Tom Kirby and Kevin Rountree are both Tzeentch! Matt Ward is Slaanesh! It's all a conspiracy! Run for you lives!
Ghorros wrote: The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
Marmatag wrote: All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
mrhappyface wrote: And what I am saying is that your assumption that a Chaos God's actions are sensible and conform to mortal understanding of the Gods is missunderstanding Chaos in it's purest form.
Khorne, according to mortal understanding, does not care about his followers as long as the blood flows and wouldn't create any secret plans. This suggests that mortals understand chaos, it suggests those who right about chaos understand chaos, it suggests that beings of chaos conform to pre-determined agandas; it's chaos! It's the warp! These are beings from another dimension who do not operate under the sames laws we do, we have no idea what they want or what they are capable of. We beings bound by the laws of our universe are toy things to the Gods and it is futile for us to attempt to understand them.
TL;DR - It's all chaos! The fluff doesn't matter! Tom Kirby and Kevin Rountree are both Tzeentch! Matt Ward is Slaanesh! It's all a conspiracy! Run for you lives!
I think our main difference is how far we take the game tbh. I like to think that the people who wrote game understand what they wrote and what it was all meant to symbolise. I also think that though I am "bound by the laws of our universe" I can still interpret a game, no matter how complex the writers may have designed it to be. I agree that Chaos is not meant to be predicted or understood, however their are aspects to all of them that cannot be denied. E.g the God of Change likes Change. The God of Death and Decay likes Death and Decay. The God/ess of Pain and Pleasure likes Pain and Pleasure. That to me means the God of Martial Honour likes Martial Honour and would not intervene in a fight. The God of Blood does not care who wins so long as Blood is spilled. However, the thread is being derailed by our discussion (I accept my part in this lol) and everyone is entitled to their opinion so I'll leave it at that
niv-mizzet wrote: Horus points out that whereas the other primarchs are like aspects of their dad, Sangy is like a full-on "Emperor jr."
That just seems to refer to how he was nominated Emperor Regent in Imperium Secundus...
Which was a figurehead position which had nothing to do with his fighting prowess or military ability, which is why Guilliman nominated Lion El'Jonson as Lord Protector of Imperium Secundus. Also may be why he wasn't able to beat Curze, whereas Lion was able to beat him in single combat.
He was nominated Emperor Regent because he was pretty and wasn't a hothead like his brother Jonson.
I still don't see anything anywhere which demonstrates that he is a superior combatant to any other Primarch. Fighting is all that Angron is known for.
That and becoming a Daemon Primarch of Khorne, which again seems to speak of the fact that he was pretty good with choppa and slugga.
The quote he is reffering to there is from the second novel "False Gods" where Horus says Sanguinius is amazing at everything, including combat. He says everyone has just a few aspects of the emperor in them, whether it is psychic power, skill at arms, oratory skill or charisma. But Sanguinius has it all and Horus says he should have been warmaster. Imo Sanguinius would have beaten Curze if the fight had gone on longer, but I haven't read Pharos so those words have absolutely no weight behind them whatsoever.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/02 01:38:47
"For the love of Baal!" - Captain Zedrenael of the 8th Company before declaring a charge against Kharn and his Bezerkers.
Cassor the Damned wrote: Imo Sanguinius would have beaten Curze if the fight had gone on longer, but I haven't read Pharos so those words have absolutely no weight behind them whatsoever.
Sanguinius sounded shell shocked in Angels of Caliban.
Fang, son of Great Fang, the traitor we seek, The laws of the brethren say this: That only the king sees the crown of the gods, And he, the usurper, must die.
Mother earth is pregnant for the third time, for y'all have knocked her up. I have tasted the maggots in the mind of the universe, but I was not offended. For I knew I had to rise above it all, or drown in my own gak.
EmpNortonII wrote: Out of curiosity, what prevents Sanguinius from just flying around shooting Angron to death from beyond arm's reach?
Angron having a gun too...? (He doesn't use it often but he has one)
That means he has plenty of ammo
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Cassor the Damned wrote: Imo Sanguinius would have beaten Curze if the fight had gone on longer, but I haven't read Pharos so those words have absolutely no weight behind them whatsoever.
Sanguinius sounded shell shocked in Angels of Caliban.
What do you mean by that? Like, scared of Curze?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jorim wrote: If even lorgar could defeat the Lord of bloodthirsters then beating one bloodthirster may not be the best argument for who would beat who.
Plus Horus also said that he and Angron could beat Sanguinius.
I recognize your point, but I think it does prove it simply because of how easy Sanguinius found it. He had no weapon and Ka bandha had his axe and whip and Kyriss the Perverse had his sword and yet Sanguinius killed them both unarmed and without breaking a sweat. He litterally tore the wings of Ka'bandha and cast him back into the warp. Lorgar was fully armed and only faced one Greater Daemon where Sanguinius faced two. Also, I used the fact that he beat Ka'bandha primarily as evidence that Angrons butchers nails would not help him against Sanguinius, as he even manages to keep his cool when fighting one of the greatest servants of the Blood God.
Cassor the Damned wrote: Imo Sanguinius would have beaten Curze if the fight had gone on longer, but I haven't read Pharos so those words have absolutely no weight behind them whatsoever.
Sanguinius sounded shell shocked in Angels of Caliban.
What do you mean by that? Like, scared of Curze?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jorim wrote: If even lorgar could defeat the Lord of bloodthirsters then beating one bloodthirster may not be the best argument for who would beat who.
Plus Horus also said that he and Angron could beat Sanguinius.
I recognize your point, but I think it does prove it simply because of how easy Sanguinius found it. He had no weapon and Ka bandha had his axe and whip and Kyriss the Perverse had his sword and yet Sanguinius killed them both unarmed and without breaking a sweat. He litterally tore the wings of Ka'bandha and cast him back into the warp. Lorgar was fully armed and only faced one Greater Daemon where Sanguinius faced two. Also, I used the fact that he beat Ka'bandha primarily as evidence that Angrons butchers nails would not help him against Sanguinius, as he even manages to keep his cool when fighting one of the greatest servants of the Blood God.
Also, does anyone have a source/book for Horus saying he would beat Sanguinius? I've always thought Horus would recognize Sanguinius' skill so I'd be interested in reading it.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/01/02 12:26:20
"For the love of Baal!" - Captain Zedrenael of the 8th Company before declaring a charge against Kharn and his Bezerkers.
Cassor the Damned wrote:However, the thread is being derailed by our discussion (I accept my part in this lol) and everyone is entitled to their opinion so I'll leave it at that
Yes, looking back I was starting to get into questions of how humans interperate life (I did some research into this when I was younger as part of a paper I was writing) and whilst it is an interesting topic you are right: it would take this thread off on more of a tangent.
Cassor the Damned wrote: Imo Sanguinius would have beaten Curze if the fight had gone on longer, but I haven't read Pharos so those words have absolutely no weight behind them whatsoever.
Sanguinius sounded shell shocked in Angels of Caliban.
What do you mean by that? Like, scared of Curze?
Despite what people may think Curze lacks in close combat abilities he has scared the **** out of almost every primarch because of his uncontrolled psychopathic attacks on people like Dorn, the Lion, Corax, etc.
It is fitting though that rhe Lord of the Night should strike fear in the hearts of even the primarchs.
Ghorros wrote: The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
Marmatag wrote: All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
Cassor the Damned wrote:However, the thread is being derailed by our discussion (I accept my part in this lol) and everyone is entitled to their opinion so I'll leave it at that
Yes, looking back I was starting to get into questions of how humans interperate life (I did some research into this when I was younger as part of a paper I was writing) and whilst it is an interesting topic you are right: it would take this thread off on more of a tangent.
Cassor the Damned wrote: Imo Sanguinius would have beaten Curze if the fight had gone on longer, but I haven't read Pharos so those words have absolutely no weight behind them whatsoever.
Sanguinius sounded shell shocked in Angels of Caliban.
What do you mean by that? Like, scared of Curze?
Despite what people may think Curze lacks in close combat abilities he has scared the **** out of almost every primarch because of his uncontrolled psychopathic attacks on people like Dorn, the Lion, Corax, etc.
It is fitting though that rhe Lord of the Night should strike fear in the hearts of even the primarchs.
It's ok brah, we've all derailed our fair share of threads
And it does make sense that he would scare Sanguinius, Corax had the same reaction and ran for it
"For the love of Baal!" - Captain Zedrenael of the 8th Company before declaring a charge against Kharn and his Bezerkers.
Sanguinius sounded shell shocked in Angels of Caliban.
What do you mean by that? Like, scared of Curze?
Actually, he mentions that he "was not completely recovered" from a bomb attack by Curze, but was otherwise physically unharmed. He specifies that he did not come to injure him physically and wanted to talk with him about chance or fate, taunt him that he had been on Macragge, for the entire duration of the novel, and he asked Sanguinius to kill him, which he refused to do, since he looked so wretched. Curze at this point had a premonition that he dies from an Imperial assassin. Sang also mentioned that he foresees his death by Horus.
Almost the entire Sanguinary Guard was killed by luring them into their own trap, but I'm not sure there was any evidence of an engagement between Sang and Curze.
Fang, son of Great Fang, the traitor we seek, The laws of the brethren say this: That only the king sees the crown of the gods, And he, the usurper, must die.
Mother earth is pregnant for the third time, for y'all have knocked her up. I have tasted the maggots in the mind of the universe, but I was not offended. For I knew I had to rise above it all, or drown in my own gak.
Cassor the Damned wrote: So do they not actually cross blades? Just words and Sanguinius is traumatised by how insane Curze is? Man, this novel is definetly my next purchase.
The novel is mostly about Luther on Caliban, Lion hunting Curze and Roboute/Lion having a pissing match.
The confrontation between Sang and Curze isn't in the book. I don't believe they traded blows. The novel Pharos might have more detail since at the time the Ultras were at Sotha.
The incident in Angels of Caliban is just Lion confronting Guilliman and Sanguinius. Lion and Roboute freak out over Curze getting so close to the regent Emperor and Sang explains what happened.
It's really not an exciting segment because of how it's told after the fact instead of replaying the event. I'm probably making it sound more exciting than it actually is in the book.
It may be in the book Phoros, but I'm not sure.
Spoiler:
Curze wanted Sang to kill him, Sanguinius refuses because he looked wretched, almost like he pitied him. Lion can't believe he didn't kill him.
Curze's premonition already showed him Sang doesn't kill him so he may not be afraid.
Sang stayed in a dark library for 3 hours apparently to recover from the bomb explosion (maybe mourning the deaths of his Sanguinary Guard), but probably mostly dealing with his vision of his death by Horus and ruminating on what Curze told him. He's sort of brooding in this book. It says Lion's felt genuine love for his brother that he accepted his fate, Lion would have tried to find a way around it. Curze and Sanguinius never traded blows from what I can tell. My guess is that Curze came to compare notes on their visions.
Fang, son of Great Fang, the traitor we seek, The laws of the brethren say this: That only the king sees the crown of the gods, And he, the usurper, must die.
Mother earth is pregnant for the third time, for y'all have knocked her up. I have tasted the maggots in the mind of the universe, but I was not offended. For I knew I had to rise above it all, or drown in my own gak.
Cassor the Damned wrote: So do they not actually cross blades? Just words and Sanguinius is traumatised by how insane Curze is? Man, this novel is definetly my next purchase.
The novel is mostly about Luther on Caliban, Lion hunting Curze and Roboute/Lion having a pissing match.
The confrontation between Sang and Curze isn't in the book. I don't believe they traded blows. The novel Pharos might have more detail since at the time the Ultras were at Sotha.
The incident in Angels of Caliban is just Lion confronting Guilliman and Sanguinius. Lion and Roboute freak out over Curze getting so close to the regent Emperor and Sang explains what happened.
It's really not an exciting segment because of how it's told after the fact instead of replaying the event. I'm probably making it sound more exciting than it actually is in the book.
It may be in the book Phoros, but I'm not sure.
Spoiler:
Curze wanted Sang to kill him, Sanguinius refuses because he looked wretched, almost like he pitied him. Lion can't believe he didn't kill him.
Curze's premonition already showed him Sang doesn't kill him so he may not be afraid.
Sang stayed in a dark library for 3 hours apparently to recover from the bomb explosion (maybe mourning the deaths of his Sanguinary Guard), but probably mostly dealing with his vision of his death by Horus and ruminating on what Curze told him. He's sort of brooding in this book. It says Lion's felt genuine love for his brother that he accepted his fate, Lion would have tried to find a way around it. Curze and Sanguinius never traded blows from what I can tell. My guess is that Curze came to compare notes on their visions.
Is it actually possible for the novel itself to be less exciting than your description?
Fang, son of Great Fang, the traitor we seek, The laws of the brethren say this: That only the king sees the crown of the gods, And he, the usurper, must die.
