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 mondo80 wrote:
They're doing it to advance the story. Remember the End Times campaign for fantasy? I don't think it will be as world ending as Age of Sigmar. Absolute worse case scenario is that the Eye of Terror merges with the Maelstrom and the to be yet named warp storm that devours Terra when Abaddon kills the Emperor, creating a super warp storm that takes up half the galaxy. The chaos gods go into soul comas leaving the greater daemons to run thing warp wise, the Tau begin the 6th sphere expansion into the galaxy, ALL the tomb world awaken and update the Necron driver files making them as fast as space marines. The Eldar have taken to their dark kins ways and now rip souls out of other races to reproduce. Loyalist Space Marines Chapters have started copying Ultramar and have begun creating their own empires and uniting all the remaining former Imperial factions under their control. Orks and Nids have become each others preferred enemy. New rules get released that somehow balance the game and then WW3 happens.

Why yes, I am looking forward to the complaints of the armies that will be rendered unplayable as a result of advancing the timeline.

DorianGray wrote:
why is GW acting like they can change anything they want for kids at anytime. They don't own up to their fluff.

Because they own their fluff?

Typo wrote:

DorianGray wrote:
why is GW acting like they can change anything they want for kids at anytime. They don't own up to their fluff.

Because they own their fluff?

in other words GW CAN change anything they want at anytime. hell go read some old 2nd edition material. it'll be enlightening.

If you're going to ask this question, you might as well ask why GW kicked-off the whole Black Crusade thing with the twelfth, rather than the first.

As other posters have remarked already, the Fall of Cadia is hardly even a retcon; it's the conclusion to what GW began back in 2004.

 Manchu wrote:

Loopstah wrote:
Because they are finally honouring the Chaos victory in the campaign and showing what happens when Cadia falls, like they chickened out of doing a decade ago.

I think this is probably closest to the truth. GW has made a lot of progress recently - it seems like the bean counters are sharing creative control with studio types, who are nerds like us and they love winking at these old nerdy debates. "If I ever get a jib at GW, I'll make sure Abaddon gets his due!"

 Slayer le boucher wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 oldzoggy wrote:
They could be revisiting it like the horus herecy instead of reconning it. Wasn't the 13th crusade won by the bad guys ; )

Nope. None of the Black Crusades have been won by the bad guys. Otherwise they'd have to redo the Guard range since Cadia would have been smooshed.

(Maybe that'd be a good thing. They are kind of ancient models.)

Yes it was...
...
...

For thos who fought during the 13Th BC, it is the exact same feeling, and its good.

If we assume that they use this back to the futureesque trick what could we expect in the upcoming campaign, based on what GW revisited in the horus herecy and what we have to start with in the old campaign books ?

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 oldzoggy wrote:
They could be revisiting it like the horus herecy instead of reconning it. Wasn't the 13th crusade won by the bad guys ; )

Nope. None of the Black Crusades have been won by the bad guys. Otherwise they'd have to redo the Guard range since Cadia would have been smooshed.

(Maybe that'd be a good thing. They are kind of ancient models.)

Actually, several of them have. The goal isn't always 'Break Cadia'. Drach'nyen is the result of one of the Black Crusades. The Black Fortresses another.

It's never been as simple as 'Break Cadia'.

As far as I'm aware, Chaos were victorious in the previous 13th Black Crusade campaign.

The new book is called the "Fall of Cadia."

I assume this is a more narratively cohesive re-telling of the 13th Black Crusade where they actually have the balls to continue the narrative with Cadia falling completely to Chaos. They were too afraid to do this originally, but now it seems they've come up with a way to continue the narrative in such a way that they're happy with the result.

A 10 year old campaign finally reaching its natural conclusion.

The result of the classic Eye of Terror campaign was a 'Battle of Allero'.

Chaos dominated the surface, the imperium orbital space encircled them, chaos encircled the imperium via the widened cadian path, encircled again by the imperium as a whole.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

Loopstah wrote:
Because they are finally honouring the Chaos victory in the campaign and showing what happens when Cadia falls, like they chickened out of doing a decade ago.

I think this is probably closest to the truth. GW has made a lot of progress recently - it seems like the bean counters are sharing creative control with studio types, who are nerds like us and they love winking at these old nerdy debates. "If I ever get a jib at GW, I'll make sure Abaddon gets his due!"

I'd have Abaddon be usurped by one of his subordinates who realized how incompetent his commander was.

They actually fixed that too, by making each Black Crusade dedicated to something Abbadon is collecting, military targets, powerful artefacts and a variety of things, along with the typical chaos that comes when you have a bunch of crazed loons exiting out to cause problems for the Imperium.

I think it is worth mentioning they didn't 'fix' it. This was always the fluff of Abaddon's Black Crusades going back to 2nd ed, even if it wasn't so explicitly spelt out. I think perhaps during 4th/5th they failed to reinforce this point strongly enough, which perhaps is where the '13 failed crusades' meme comes from.

I wasn't up to date during 4th/5th, but every source I have ever read was clear on what the 13 crusades were about. Considering the 'memeiness' of '13 failed crusades' for 'abaddon the armless' I'd guess it is something that was perpetrated especially by/to those that use 4chan as their primary source of lore.

Typo wrote:

DorianGray wrote:
why is GW acting like they can change anything they want for kids at anytime. They don't own up to their fluff.

Because they own their fluff?

Isn't that true of literally all fiction?

I think it has more to do with the fact they discovered they'd written themselves into a hole, what with Abaddon being in a wholly untenable position on Cadia after his fleet was destroyed/chased off. I may be wrong, as I often am.

Because the previous 13th Black Crusade fluff sucked so hard GW's mouth is still sore.
So they want to write it again and this time they want to do it well. I am kinda excited to see what they will come up with, and whether they will finally manage to do honour to what is supposed to be the most epic confrontation of all time in 40k fluff.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

Loopstah wrote:
Because they are finally honouring the Chaos victory in the campaign and showing what happens when Cadia falls, like they chickened out of doing a decade ago.

I think this is probably closest to the truth. GW has made a lot of progress recently - it seems like the bean counters are sharing creative control with studio types, who are nerds like us and they love winking at these old nerdy debates. "If I ever get a jib at GW, I'll make sure Abaddon gets his due!"

I'd have Abaddon be usurped by one of his subordinates who realized how incompetent his commander was.

They actually fixed that too, by making each Black Crusade dedicated to something Abbadon is collecting, military targets, powerful artefacts and a variety of things, along with the typical chaos that comes when you have a bunch of crazed loons exiting out to cause problems for the Imperium.

I wouldn't call it fixed. They changed their emphasis from it from being a total failure for Chaos to Chaos still getting defeated every single time but at least they get something out of it as well. Going from a total defeat to a normal defeat isn't fixed imo. I would rather see that they rewrote some of the past Crusades to be actual, meaningful victories for Chaos in a long and constant war, with the Imperium losing lots of territory and suffering crippling defeats. This would set up Chaos as an actual threat, as the Imperium is ever losing increasingly more and more ground to Chaos with the 13th Black Crusade set up as the coup de grace.

Pouncey wrote:

Davor wrote:

Loopstah wrote:Because they are finally honouring the Chaos victory in the campaign and showing what happens when Cadia falls, like they chickened out of doing a decade ago.

I never thought of this. Who is to say this is a recton, like I thought but an actual story that is fleshed out that happened 10 years ago. Thank you for this. I have changed my opinion for now. It can still be recton if Imperials win in the end, but for now will just enjoy the ride and see what happens.

Um, they said Cadia falls.

How could that possibly suggest an Imperial victory?

Just because Cadia falls doesn't mean it's a Chaos victory.

The same reason that there's been a billion re-releases of hte first star wars trilogy.

Its a retcon of the events of the 13th Black Crusade. The event as you know it never happened, the event that is occurring now is what actually happened.

This is no different from Fantasy's The End Times, which was The Storm of Chaos as it should have happened.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Because the previous 13th Black Crusade fluff sucked so hard GW's mouth is still sore.
So they want to write it again and this time they want to do it well. I am kinda excited to see what they will come up with, and whether they will finally manage to do honour to what is supposed to be the most epic confrontation of all time in 40k fluff.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

Loopstah wrote:
Because they are finally honouring the Chaos victory in the campaign and showing what happens when Cadia falls, like they chickened out of doing a decade ago.

I think this is probably closest to the truth. GW has made a lot of progress recently - it seems like the bean counters are sharing creative control with studio types, who are nerds like us and they love winking at these old nerdy debates. "If I ever get a jib at GW, I'll make sure Abaddon gets his due!"

I'd have Abaddon be usurped by one of his subordinates who realized how incompetent his commander was.

They actually fixed that too, by making each Black Crusade dedicated to something Abbadon is collecting, military targets, powerful artefacts and a variety of things, along with the typical chaos that comes when you have a bunch of crazed loons exiting out to cause problems for the Imperium.

I wouldn't call it fixed. They changed their emphasis from it from being a total failure for Chaos to Chaos still getting defeated every single time but at least they get something out of it as well. Going from a total defeat to a normal defeat isn't fixed imo. I would rather see that they rewrote some of the past Crusades to be actual, meaningful victories for Chaos in a long and constant war, with the Imperium losing lots of territory and suffering crippling defeats. This would set up Chaos as an actual threat, as the Imperium is ever losing increasingly more and more ground to Chaos with the 13th Black Crusade set up as the coup de grace.

So basically you think GW will be giving it the 're-do' treatment, like whfb storm of chaos?

As to 'changed emphasis from total failure to getting something out of it', it was the fluff since 2nd ed that Abaddon's Black Crusades were always 'getting something out of it' and working up to something bigger.


This is a previous post I made on the subject of the early crusades being precursors:

"Abaddon has led twelve Black Crusades against the Imperium. Some have been great invasions of whole Legions of the lost and the damned, others have been vicious raids with only a few companies of the most deadly Chaos Space Marines at his command. Each attack has sent the Imperium reeling and ravaged worlds close to the Eye of Terror. The High Lords of Terra live in fear of the day that Abaddon unites all of the Traitor Legions into an unstoppable horde and returns to play out the last acts of treachery begun by Horus ten thousand years ago."

"Abaddon dreams of forging a diabolic empire of his own from the blazing ruins of the shattered Imperium. Each world, each city destroyed, is a step closer to wiping the canvas clean so he can make his mark upon the galaxy."

"Abaddon the Despoiler, most feared adversary of the Imperium, has slowly but surely marshalled the forces of countless Traitor Legions to the point where he stands on the brink of challenging the Emperor himself as Warmaster Horus did before him."

To me, perhaps with the benefit of perspective of where the fluff is today, the way the 2nd ed codex is setting the scene is Abaddon has been bringing together the forces of chaos to the point where he can launch the greatest and final black crusade, the one which will bring the imperium to it's knees.

(end of old post)

The 2nd ed codex also talks about Abaddon using the crusades to collect artefacts (e.g. his sword) to use in later crusades to achieve strategic objectives (e.g. to destroy fortress worlds blockading his path).

So as you can see, the fluff always was 'working up to something bigger and getting something out of the 'failures'.

Or that stuff happens, rowboat wakes up and takes a company of ultras out of the galaxy and they zoom off into a new galaxy and try to start the Imperium II. It shall be called Warhammer 42,000: Imperial boogaloo where the aim of the game is to play as a squad of ultramarines exploring a new planet and be pelted by weak ineffective random npc indigenous xenos..

You mean Advanced Space Crusade?

 -DE- wrote:
Because remake culture, nostalgia and member berries.

Make 'Merica great again!

Cadia falling explains why they didn't make plastic Kasrkin.....

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Triskaidekaphilia.

(In layman's terms: '13' is cooler than '14'.)

(Full disclosure: Yes, I got the word off an MTG card. No, that doesn't make it less funny.)

Actually that means three-and-ten-o-phily.

That may not always be thirteen.

According to existing scientific naming conventions, such as used in the dodecahedron, one would assume tridecaphilia would be the correct pseudo-scientific name.

/pedantic rant

General Hobbs wrote:

Cadia falling explains why they didn't make plastic Kasrkin.....

Cadia falling won't mean jack, if they want to make plastic Kasrkin. Cadians aren't restricted to Cadia, they're scattered all over the galaxy and they have settled on other worlds and kept their heritage intact in doing so.

In the end, we likely didn't get plastic Kasrkin because Stormtroopers were their own thing and they decided to make the Scions as a way of protecting the concept.

DorianGray wrote:
Isn't it pretty embarrassing that GW is redoing the 13th crusade I suspect because they think the number 13 is "cool".

If they moved on and just went on to the 14th at least there is a line of continuity and consistently with their fluff - as of now this just proves anything they say can be invalid and changed AT ANY TIME. So any fluff from their past can be immediately changed if they feel like it.

There was nothing wrong with the 13th crusade campaign 10 years ago and many old timers even have fold memories of it .. why is GW acting like they can change anything they want for kids at anytime. They don't own up to their fluff.

They did this in WHFB, too. They did the whole Storm of Chaos campaign, wherein Archaon got totally hosed from wire to wire. By the time they released the 8th edition Warriors of Chaos book, the whole thing had been retconned out of existence. Then they revisited it for the End Times.

So apparently, yes, they can rewrite fluff.

The funny part is it seems like they are taking the talking points from the 13th black crusade world event and turning them into the thirteenth black crusade we are looking at. The fall of cadia, dark angels running off to fight at caliban and letting cadia burn, the black templars being the first chapter on the scene, many space marine chapters being delayed to the fight by clever attacks on the part of chaos, literally if you want an outline of how this is going to go you can read it here:

http://redelf.narod.ru/w40k/eyeofterror/death_by_thousand_cuts.html

Loopstah wrote:
Because they are finally honouring the Chaos victory in the campaign and showing what happens when Cadia fall, like they chickened out of doing a decade ago.

this.

Because 13

Cadia has always belonged to chaos and was only in the hands of the Imperium because Lorgar eradicated the population to hide his own turn to Chaos

Cadia is finally Liberated!

There seems to be a lot of false information or at best half remembered information from the old Eye of Terror campaign.

I have compiled the final score, and the warzone writeups from that campaign, including all event cards that were played during the campaign (as well as the dates they were played) unedited, but with my own separate commentary here:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/392010.page

If there is to be a discussion, let's at least start with the basic facts of what happened back then instead of people misremembering or going by hearsay.

In a nutshell, Chaos won a minor victory. Lots of sore loser Imperial players tried (and some still try) to spin it as a draw or even an inevitable Imperial victory (based on the false assumption that space power is the be all and end all of warfare in 40K). GW chickened out of implementing the results of the campaign and tried to roll it back.

The thing is...considering what they are writing now, they could have pretty much just enacted the old 13th Black Crusade results and we would still be mostly where we are today.

It doesn't show off the bitter Tau and Ork players efforts however in other sectors!

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
It doesn't show off the bitter Tau and Ork players efforts however in other sectors!

My writeup does include the WD warzone reports on the Tau and Scarus Sector (where the Orks fought). For the most part, Imperial players ignored the Tau for the same reason the Imperium ignores the Tau: it was considered a sideshow to the main action against Chaos.

If you mean the new Fall of Cadia, yes I would imagine it would ignore the Tau and Orks. From the summary, it seems even the Cadians are backdrop redshirts on their own world.