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 Galef wrote:
I'd like to point out that against 2 WKs, Magnus wins most of the time. He just flies up, D-beams one or both of them, uses one of them to shoot at the other, then D-shots whichever one is left standing. It may take 2 turns, but he will get his points back in this scenario.
Only the WKs going first would shift the balance, but then you just reserve Magnus. Not ideal, but gives you an idea of where Magnus stands against 2 WKs

And as for FMCs being OMG TFG OP, I haven't seen any armies with FMCs winning any major tourneys lately.
Yes many armies struggle against FMCs, but that does mean others can't plink them out of the skies.

Your senario doesnt work because you cant hit both at the time if the other guy isnt bad, plus you just have to move up the WK so magnus flies out of range so you get 2 rounds of free shooting while magnus his making his way back.

Like you stated, FMC can t score and they haven t been winning much lately...

If you kill the rest, magnus won t cast much and won t score anything...

alex0911 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

alex0911 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
He's more than 750 because he's an FMC. Pay for your immortality.

Flying means no charge, 1 vector strike and a waste of points, thanks but yeah...

Hard to hit, chief.

Indeed, so having an immortal thing in the air means we should pay 1k point without considering the dommage input and his impact on the game ? Thanks for sharing lol

I didn't say 1K. I said more than 750.


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alex0911 wrote:

 Galef wrote:
I'd like to point out that against 2 WKs, Magnus wins most of the time. He just flies up, D-beams one or both of them, uses one of them to shoot at the other, then D-shots whichever one is left standing. It may take 2 turns, but he will get his points back in this scenario.
Only the WKs going first would shift the balance, but then you just reserve Magnus. Not ideal, but gives you an idea of where Magnus stands against 2 WKs

And as for FMCs being OMG TFG OP, I haven't seen any armies with FMCs winning any major tourneys lately.
Yes many armies struggle against FMCs, but that does mean others can't plink them out of the skies.

Your senario doesnt work because you cant hit both at the time if the other guy isnt bad, plus you just have to move up the WK so magnus flies out of range so you get 2 rounds of free shooting while magnus his making his way back.

Like you stated, FMC can t score and they haven t been winning much lately...

If you kill the rest, magnus won t cast much and won t score anything...

Big if.

alex0911 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

alex0911 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
He's more than 750 because he's an FMC. Pay for your immortality.

Flying means no charge, 1 vector strike and a waste of points, thanks but yeah...

Hard to hit, chief.

Indeed, so having an immortal thing in the air means we should pay 1k point without considering the dommage input and his impact on the game ? Thanks for sharing lol

Quite a leap from 650 -> 1,000 points isn't it?

And you can't have both insane damage and insane survivability...

And LOL at people voting less than 400 points. A little lower and you'd see Kill Team Magnus. GW, never let this community anywhere near game balance.

There's a lot of problems. How do you cost MCs in general when they have a laundry list of advantages over vehicles?

Martel732 wrote:
There's a lot of problems. How do you cost MCs in general when they have a laundry list of advantages over vehicles?

Well, the "original sin" is into designing MC with 2+ armour AND W>3 AND an invulnerable save >5+ AND T>5.
All together is just too much.

Gee I do wonder who designed something like this first.

Martel732 wrote:
There's a lot of problems. How do you cost MCs in general when they have a laundry list of advantages over vehicles?

Thats right


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 Marmatag wrote:

alex0911 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

alex0911 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
He's more than 750 because he's an FMC. Pay for your immortality.

Flying means no charge, 1 vector strike and a waste of points, thanks but yeah...

Hard to hit, chief.

Indeed, so having an immortal thing in the air means we should pay 1k point without considering the dommage input and his impact on the game ? Thanks for sharing lol

Quite a leap from 650 -> 1,000 points isn't it?

And you can't have both insane damage and insane survivability...

And LOL at people voting less than 400 points. A little lower and you'd see Kill Team Magnus. GW, never let this community anywhere near game balance.

Also LOL at people voting more then 750. I guess all we should be able to play is 1 sorcerer, magnus and 2x cultists squad. I m sure we can beat 2x stormsurges + riptides wing or biker spam + WK easily with that list. Let s stay serious here, less then 400 is .... But so is more then 750... You have to take a look at the whole picture ( taxes, lack of WCs, no scoring, etc. ) And not only magnus stats line.

No. Not at all. There are already too many units that are too durable for their cost in 40K. Feth "looking at the whole picture". Tau can whine about how the rest of their army are T3 4+ chumpos, but that doesn't make their immortal undercosted suits any less immortal. You want an immortal sky god, that needs to be a HUGE chunk of points.

alex0911 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
There's a lot of problems. How do you cost MCs in general when they have a laundry list of advantages over vehicles?

Thats right


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Marmatag wrote:

alex0911 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

alex0911 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
He's more than 750 because he's an FMC. Pay for your immortality.

Flying means no charge, 1 vector strike and a waste of points, thanks but yeah...

Hard to hit, chief.

Indeed, so having an immortal thing in the air means we should pay 1k point without considering the dommage input and his impact on the game ? Thanks for sharing lol

Quite a leap from 650 -> 1,000 points isn't it?

And you can't have both insane damage and insane survivability...

And LOL at people voting less than 400 points. A little lower and you'd see Kill Team Magnus. GW, never let this community anywhere near game balance.

Also LOL at people voting more then 750. I guess all we should be able to play is 1 sorcerer, magnus and 2x cultists squad. I m sure we can beat 2x stormsurges + riptides wing or biker spam + WK easily with that list. Let s stay serious here, less then 400 is .... But so is more then 750... You have to take a look at the whole picture ( taxes, lack of WCs, no scoring, etc. ) And not only magnus stats line.

Fair. I voted 650. There isn't enough data on his performance, and possible combos, to see. Also, the Thousand Sons will continue to get a lot of work, and there are updates that they can make, as a part of 8e, which favor them. If they EVER change the Tzeentch powers in any way shape or form for the better that is a huge buff to Magnus.

And seriously, there are some criminally overcosted independent characters, far more egregious point totals for what you get compared to Magnus.

 Marmatag wrote:

alex0911 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
There's a lot of problems. How do you cost MCs in general when they have a laundry list of advantages over vehicles?

Thats right


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Marmatag wrote:

alex0911 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

alex0911 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
He's more than 750 because he's an FMC. Pay for your immortality.

Flying means no charge, 1 vector strike and a waste of points, thanks but yeah...

Hard to hit, chief.

Indeed, so having an immortal thing in the air means we should pay 1k point without considering the dommage input and his impact on the game ? Thanks for sharing lol

Quite a leap from 650 -> 1,000 points isn't it?

And you can't have both insane damage and insane survivability...

And LOL at people voting less than 400 points. A little lower and you'd see Kill Team Magnus. GW, never let this community anywhere near game balance.

Also LOL at people voting more then 750. I guess all we should be able to play is 1 sorcerer, magnus and 2x cultists squad. I m sure we can beat 2x stormsurges + riptides wing or biker spam + WK easily with that list. Let s stay serious here, less then 400 is .... But so is more then 750... You have to take a look at the whole picture ( taxes, lack of WCs, no scoring, etc. ) And not only magnus stats line.

Fair. I voted 650. There isn't enough data on his performance, and possible combos, to see. Also, the Thousand Sons will continue to get a lot of work, and there are updates that they can make, as a part of 8e, which favor them. If they EVER change the Tzeentch powers in any way shape or form for the better that is a huge buff to Magnus.

maybe you are right, 650 looks like the most popular answer by the community.

He's fine as is he's over coated.
Also Martel complaining about chaos again I Kean damn are you NAD chaos rules are starting to reflect our fluff I mean shock horror loyalist armies will struggle to deal with a daemon primarch I can't wait til they release mortarian I hope they make him next to impossible for blood angels to kill so I can laugh at you

Fluff arguments never end. Ever read BA fluff?

Yes I have they are a bunch of wannabe emo world eaters

Actually, there you have it, straight from the mouth of Galef.

Magnus wins against 2 wraithknights most of the time.

A wraithknight, if it were fairly costed, should cost more than 400 ppm base.

Therefore, Magnus should cost more than 800 points.

Imho, the 400 point estimate for a wraithknight is too low. 700 points for a wraithknight. 1500 points for Magnus.

 Traditio wrote:
Actually, there you have it, straight from the mouth of Galef.

Magnus wins against 2 wraithknights most of the time.

A wraithknight, if it were fairly costed, should cost more than 400 ppm base.

Therefore, Magnus should cost more than 800 points.

Imho, the 400 point estimate for a wraithknight is too low. 700 points for a wraithknight. 1500 points for Magnus.

That's not how pricing works.

Magnus wins over the (underpriced) Wraith Knights because he's exactly what WK's have trouble facing; Fliers with access to Strenght D.
You can pretty much put anything that flies and has high S AP1/3 shooting on the table, and it will beat the WK's.

As for Magnus costing 1500 pts, I can only assume that you're trolling or "joking". He can't even reliably cast his own power if there's no other psykers around to funnel warp charges into him.
Suddently you're looking at 2000 pts for ...1 Strenght D beam and 1 Strenght D shot. What a scary combined shooting and psychic phase that is ...not.

Edit: Wait, you're that guy who wanted to bann Magnus right? Guess I just wasted my time typing this reply...

 MinscS2 wrote:

 Traditio wrote:
Actually, there you have it, straight from the mouth of Galef.

Magnus wins against 2 wraithknights most of the time.

A wraithknight, if it were fairly costed, should cost more than 400 ppm base.

Therefore, Magnus should cost more than 800 points.

Imho, the 400 point estimate for a wraithknight is too low. 700 points for a wraithknight. 1500 points for Magnus.

That's not how pricing works.

Magnus wins over the (underpriced) Wraith Knights because he's exactly what WK's have trouble facing; Fliers with access to Strenght D.
You can pretty much put anything that flies and has high S AP1/3 shooting on the table, and it will beat the WK's.

As for Magnus costing 1500 pts, I can only assume that you're trolling or "joking". He can't even reliably cast his own power if there's no other psykers around to funnel warp charges into him.
Suddently you're looking at 2000 pts for ...1 Strenght D beam and 1 Strenght D shot. What a scary combined shooting and psychic phase that is ...not.

1. That's not the only psychic power he has access to.

2. He's practically indestructible.

If you put Magnus against 1500 points of tactical marines, Magnus still probably wouldn't go down over the course of a game. He'd kill a whole bunch of tactical marines, though.

700 point wraithknight. 1500 point Magnus.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To put things in perspective: Would you rather have 8 or so Shadow Captain Shrikes? Or 1 Magnus?

 Traditio wrote:
Actually, there you have it, straight from the mouth of Galef.

Magnus wins against 2 wraithknights most of the time.

A wraithknight, if it were fairly costed, should cost more than 400 ppm base.

Therefore, Magnus should cost more than 800 points.

Imho, the 400 point estimate for a wraithknight is too low. 700 points for a wraithknight. 1500 points for Magnus.

From another point of view, 50 conscripts with a ministorum priest wins against Magnus most of the time. He's never breaking away from that combat.

That's only 175 points, and soundly neuters Magnus for the game. So clearly he must be worth less than that.

Or maybe the conscript blob should be worth over 650 points.

Arson Fire wrote:From another point of view, 50 conscripts with a ministorum priest wins against Magnus most of the time. He's never breaking away from that combat.

That's only 175 points, and soundly neuters Magnus for the game. So clearly he must be worth less than that.

Or maybe the conscript blob should be worth over 650 points.

If your conscript blob and priest can tie up Magnus in close combat, then the person playing Magnus needs to git gud.

Yeah, consider the following. Without support, it only takes 50.4 Devourer hits to kill Magnus (56.7 twin-linked shots). Each Flyrant is only 230 for 12 shots. So, for a similar price (690 as compared to 650) you can reliably kill Magnus in just two turns. Now, that is, of course, assuming he doesn't fight back. If he does, though, you'll probably lose a Flyrant a turn... Maybe? I mean, he's relying on 6s to kill them, since they can jink and even outright tank lesser D hits. But sure, let's assume Magnus kills one a turn, but the Flyrants also get turn 1

Turn 1-Flyrants pour out 36 shots, get 32 hits, 10.67 wounds, of which 4.44 go through. Magnus kills a Flyrant.

Turn 2-Flyrants do 24 shots now. 21.33 hit, 7.11 wound, 2.96 go through (for 7.4 total) and looky that, Magnus is dead!

I dunno. If Tyranids have an answer, it doesn't seem like an issue.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Yeah, consider the following. Without support, it only takes 50.4 Devourer hits to kill Magnus (56.7 twin-linked shots). Each Flyrant is only 230 for 12 shots. So, for a similar price (690 as compared to 650) you can reliably kill Magnus in just two turns. Now, that is, of course, assuming he doesn't fight back. If he does, though, you'll probably lose a Flyrant a turn... Maybe? I mean, he's relying on 6s to kill them, since they can jink and even outright tank lesser D hits. But sure, let's assume Magnus kills one a turn, but the Flyrants also get turn 1

Turn 1-Flyrants pour out 36 shots, get 32 hits, 10.67 wounds, of which 4.44 go through. Magnus kills a Flyrant.

Turn 2-Flyrants do 24 shots now. 21.33 hit, 7.11 wound, 2.96 go through (for 7.4 total) and looky that, Magnus is dead!

I dunno. If Tyranids have an answer, it doesn't seem like an issue.

Dakka Flyrants are OP.

There's a reason why Tyrranid players consider them an auto-include and try to spam as many of them as possible.

The Tyrranids codex as a whole is terrible, but dakka flyrants are as OP as wraithknights and riptides.

Flyrants are another one of those models that should cost 600+ points.

 Traditio wrote:

Arson Fire wrote:From another point of view, 50 conscripts with a ministorum priest wins against Magnus most of the time. He's never breaking away from that combat.

That's only 175 points, and soundly neuters Magnus for the game. So clearly he must be worth less than that.

Or maybe the conscript blob should be worth over 650 points.

If your conscript blob and priest can tie up Magnus in close combat, then the person playing Magnus needs to git gud.

Then they can just sit on objectives while magnus floats around plinking off conscripts with his D beam.
He can do that all game if he wants. The conscripts don't really mind. They still win.

And for the people who are going to say: "But tacticals vs. Magnus; here we go again with another lame Traditio false comparison!"

Ok. Suppose I have a fairly well balanced 1500 point space marine army replete with devastators, assault marines, tactical marines, let's say a predator, a vindicator, a thunderfire cannon....pfffffft...you get the idea. A well balanced 1500 point space marine list.

Magnus still probably won't go down. He will tear through some space marines, though.

 Traditio wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Yeah, consider the following. Without support, it only takes 50.4 Devourer hits to kill Magnus (56.7 twin-linked shots). Each Flyrant is only 230 for 12 shots. So, for a similar price (690 as compared to 650) you can reliably kill Magnus in just two turns. Now, that is, of course, assuming he doesn't fight back. If he does, though, you'll probably lose a Flyrant a turn... Maybe? I mean, he's relying on 6s to kill them, since they can jink and even outright tank lesser D hits. But sure, let's assume Magnus kills one a turn, but the Flyrants also get turn 1

Turn 1-Flyrants pour out 36 shots, get 32 hits, 10.67 wounds, of which 4.44 go through. Magnus kills a Flyrant.

Turn 2-Flyrants do 24 shots now. 21.33 hit, 7.11 wound, 2.96 go through (for 7.4 total) and looky that, Magnus is dead!

I dunno. If Tyranids have an answer, it doesn't seem like an issue.

Dakka Flyrants are OP.

There's a reason why Tyrranid players consider them an auto-include and try to spam as many of them as possible.

The Tyrranids codex as a whole is terrible, but dakka flyrants are as OP as wraithknights and riptides.

Flyrants are another one of those models that should cost 600+ points.

Tradito, not everything you can't handle is OP. You play Space Marines, right? You have tanks that are excellent solutions to Flyrants, and more than enough Alpha-Strike capability to wipe one out if you get turn one.

Edit: And yes, he'll tear through Space Marines. but probably not 650 points of them, and even if he does, the Daemon army is playing with under 1,000 points of objective grabbers. Play to the mission and win.

Arson Fire wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

Arson Fire wrote:From another point of view, 50 conscripts with a ministorum priest wins against Magnus most of the time. He's never breaking away from that combat.

That's only 175 points, and soundly neuters Magnus for the game. So clearly he must be worth less than that.

Or maybe the conscript blob should be worth over 650 points.

If your conscript blob and priest can tie up Magnus in close combat, then the person playing Magnus needs to git gud.

Then they can just sit on objectives while magnus floats around plinking off conscripts with his D beam.
He can do that all game if he wants. The conscripts don't really mind. They still win.

Are you people really that myopic?

The d beam isn't the only psychic power that Magnus knows. He has access to like 15 different psychic powers, his chances of pulling off those psychic powers with minimal warp charges is a veritable certainty, and he CAN'T roll perils.

Magnus should be so costed that he should be practically unusable outside of very high points (4000+) games.

Can Beams even hit flying targets?

If not, Magnus only has 1 Str D attack at his disposal, and due to Jink it's *very* unlikely he'll kill one Flyrant a turn. (8,3%).

Ergo, Magnus is OP.
Flyrants beat Magnus.
Tyranids are twice as OP as Magnus.
Tyranids rule the galaxy?

The d beam isn't the only psychic power that Magnus knows. He has access to like 15 different psychic powers, his chances of pulling off those psychic powers with minimal warp charges is a veritable certainty, and he CAN'T roll perils.

You should read up on what Powers Magnus has at his disposal, they're really not that impressive outside of the Str D shot, Str D Beam, Treason of Tzeentch, Flickering Fire and possibly Degeneration or summoning a Chariot.
You might want to toss in Force there so he get's a 3++ but that's about it. The chance of him getting the majority of theese off without an external source of Warp Charges? Slimm & None.

Good point. Unless they changed it in the FAQ, beams explicitly say they cannot hit swooping FMCs.
Tyranid master race confirmed.

JNAProductions wrote:Tradito, not everything you can't handle is OP.

If most codex entries can't handle it, it's op.

If I have to bring a very specific thing or combination of things just to prepare for the off-chance that I just so happen to see one, then yes, it's OP.

Edit: And yes, he'll tear through Space Marines. but probably not 650 points of them, and even if he does, the Daemon army is playing with under 1,000 points of objective grabbers. Play to the mission and win.

Depending on what the space marine player brings? He very easily could tear through 650 points of them between close combat and the psychic phase over the course of 5-7 turns.

Ah, but if a Flyrant jinks, it neuters its shooting. So jinking might as well be dead for the purposes of one turn, at least, and besides, they do it with one dead in two turns anyway.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Ah, but if a Flyrant jinks, it neuters its shooting. So jinking might as well be dead for the purposes of one turn, at least, and besides, they do it with one dead in two turns anyway.

Except, it doesn't really "neuter" its shooting. That's how OP flyrants are.

12/1 X 1/6 = 2/1

10/1 X 1/6 = 10/6

You're still likely to get 3-4 hits with the twin-linked devourers even after you jink. Not to mention the free vector strike bull gak in the movement phase.

Ah, but if a Flyrant jinks, it neuters its shooting. So jinking might as well be dead for the purposes of one turn, at least, and besides, they do it with one dead in two turns anyway.

True, but they don't even have to jink, since it's pretty safe to play the odds; Only a 6 will kill it anyway.

Tyranids master race confirmed.

Now for the real question in this topic; How many points is a Flyrant really worth?

It's pretty piss-poor compared to its regular shooting.

In addition, Vector Strike counts as firing a weapon, so it loses you 6 shots.