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Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Why would any Necron Warrior care about being in rapid fire range? They'll pass through 75% of any wounds you manage to do on the charge. Then the boys will be tarpitted forever.
Doesn't always happen that way in my experience. Especially with the boss and/or big mek helping them out.
Let's compare these Boyz to a similar troop unit: Cultists.
Cultists are 10pts cheaper but for your 10pts you get +1WS (yes at the loss of of 1BS but Slugga boys don't care about shooting), you get +1T and +1A. Your speed problem is solved by the ability to take dedicated transport, something cultists can't do. Your leadership problem is solved by a 15pt Nob with a boss poll, who will out punch a cultist champion any day (and can also take down IK if you give him a klaw). 60pts gives you a cheap troop choice that can actually hit and hit hard, asking for them to be tougher than they are is just greedy. As a CSM player I would love for Cultists to get Ork Boyz' rules.
Are we really comparing a unit that people tend to take only to sit on objectives in the backline gone to ground with a unit that is supposed to get up into melee and hopefully do damage?
Also Cultists aren't the mainstay of a force for us CSM players.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/01/15 18:48:54
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Why would any Necron Warrior care about being in rapid fire range? They'll pass through 75% of any wounds you manage to do on the charge. Then the boys will be tarpitted forever.
Doesn't always happen that way in my experience. Especially with the boss and/or big mek helping them out.
You mean the
You are talking about the Big Mek, where you land one hit on average and you have to wound and then get through a FNP equivalent.
No, Orks are straight up bad. I'd rather take Tactical Marines in a CAD than Ork Boyz. That's saying a lot.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Let's compare these Boyz to a similar troop unit: Cultists.
Cultists are 10pts cheaper but for your 10pts you get +1WS (yes at the loss of of 1BS but Slugga boys don't care about shooting), you get +1T and +1A. Your speed problem is solved by the ability to take dedicated transport, something cultists can't do. Your leadership problem is solved by a 15pt Nob with a boss poll, who will out punch a cultist champion any day (and can also take down IK if you give him a klaw). 60pts gives you a cheap troop choice that can actually hit and hit hard, asking for them to be tougher than they are is just greedy. As a CSM player I would love for Cultists to get Ork Boyz' rules.
Are we really comparing a unit that people tend to take only to sit on objectives in the backline gone to ground with a unit that is supposed to get up into melee and hopefully do damage?
Also Cultists aren't the mainstay of a force for us CSM players.
We are comparing two cheap troop choices for around the same price, one can do nothing more than hold down objectives, the other can hold down objectives and also smash face rather impressively. Ork lists don't have to centre around boyz and many don't but most have boyz at their core because they're a good troop choice.
Cultists aren't the backbone of a CSM force because cultists aren't that good. If cultists had Ork boyz' loadouts wouldn't you take loads of them?
Ghorros wrote: The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
Marmatag wrote: All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
Krusha wrote: So I'm taking a break from a day of boring grown-up stuff to bring you this:
I started 40k in earnest with Orks. Once I got them where I wanted, I graduated to using Guard and now Blood Angels.
I've been playing for a couple of years now against a variety of opponents. To be honest, I still feel I'm best with Orks and that they are underrated as a faction.
IMHO, despite what the fluff would have you believe, Orks are actually an army that reward you for being cunning, knowing the rules and using actual tactics. You don't get point-and-click uber units, and you're still better off using a CAD (or double CAD if points allow), but I maintain that they're a good army if you know what you're doing. You also have to avoid trying to playing the deathstar game - Ork characters work better as support for boyz.
Here's what I miss about my Orks when I play using one of my other factions:
* Versatility. The combination of boyz and powerful characters helps them to deal with almost any threat on the tapletop. Want to kill horde infantry? Your boyz will gun them down and stomp them flat. Elite infantry, vehicles or monstrous creatures? Drown them in choppa attacks and finish them off with power klaws. Gargantuans and super-heavies? Make them waste their attacks killing boyz and then clobber them with power klaws. No need to worry about deep striking troops failing their reserve rolls or scattering away from their intended targets. Some other armies have access to lethal close combat troops, but IMO the only ones who can really match Orks for versatility are wulfen and *maybe* death company.
* Fire support. Yes, I am serious. In the games I've played, my flash gitz and bikers have been absolute stars. There is nothing like the look on a Tau player's face when he realises that greenskins have blasted his riptides off the table. I don't use lootas, but I know other players fear them.
* Battlewagons. Unequivocally the most points-efficient transport in the game. For 125 points you can get your boyz into combat or give your shooty units a great gunboat. You can end up spamming a lot of AV14 and the sight of so many wagons full of bloodthirsty Orks coming at them can be quite intimidating for your opponent. Opponents also tend to ignore them once the guys inside have disembarked, at which point you can ram vehicles (an automatic strength 9 hit is not bad at all), tank shock things off of objectives or grab cheeky line breakers.
* Trukks. Yes, they're only armour 10. They're also fast, very cheap, easy to hide for the first turn and can gain obsec. Like wagons, they become low-priority targets once their passengers have left.
* Bikers. They're shooty, choppy and very hard to kill, especially if you stick a painboy in there.
* The Megaboss with da lukky stikk. Absolutely devastating for the points he costs. He is almost unkillable by non-ap2 weapons, which saves him and the boyz and leads frustrated opponents to invest ridiculous amounts of fire into trying to kill him. Then you have all of those re-rollable S10 ap2 attacks. His only weakness is in challenges against uber-characters, which, to be honest, is fair enough for his low points cost and easily remedied by sacrificing a lesser character (e.g. a mek).
* Underestimation. Because they don't have any real cheese units, opponents often underestimate them until my boyz are smashing up their expensive units or my gitz are gunning them down!
What do you guys think?
You forgot the actual best units of the codex. Meganobz and lobbas.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/15 19:09:06
Let's compare these Boyz to a similar troop unit: Cultists.
Cultists are 10pts cheaper but for your 10pts you get +1WS (yes at the loss of of 1BS but Slugga boys don't care about shooting), you get +1T and +1A. Your speed problem is solved by the ability to take dedicated transport, something cultists can't do. Your leadership problem is solved by a 15pt Nob with a boss poll, who will out punch a cultist champion any day (and can also take down IK if you give him a klaw). 60pts gives you a cheap troop choice that can actually hit and hit hard, asking for them to be tougher than they are is just greedy. As a CSM player I would love for Cultists to get Ork Boyz' rules.
Are we really comparing a unit that people tend to take only to sit on objectives in the backline gone to ground with a unit that is supposed to get up into melee and hopefully do damage?
Also Cultists aren't the mainstay of a force for us CSM players.
We are comparing two cheap troop choices for around the same price, one can do nothing more than hold down objectives, the other can hold down objectives and also smash face rather impressively. Ork lists don't have to centre around boyz and many don't but most have boyz at their core because they're a good troop choice.
Cultists aren't the backbone of a CSM force because cultists aren't that good. If cultists had Ork boyz' loadouts wouldn't you take loads of them?
No we wouldn't.
Plus we get infiltrating Cultists that can potentially come back. Why would anyone want Ork Boyz?
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Two of the most resounding losses I can remember from the past few years have been to Ork hordes. Just so many models. So. . . .many. . . .
The great thing about the Ork Truks (and Battlewagons) is that they can banzai charge up the table and get in your face. When they get killed, whatever was inside usually just assaults you, since the vehicle is open-topped. You kill some Orks in the process of killing the vehicle, sure, but they're cheap as dirt, and the Nob is guaranteed to stay alive. So you could then shoot the Nob and the rest of the unit, but then you've spent at least 2 units firing to get rid of one truck of guys. And there's never just one or two units immediately threatening assaults. There's usually 5-6.
Oi, Lobbas. T7 Gretchin in 4+ Ruins raining death on any marine who's deployed to bring bolters to bear on the rest of the 120-man Horde.
Plus we get infiltrating Cultists that can potentially come back. Why would anyone want Ork Boyz?
We get infiltrate + regen cultists from formations not the base units. I was saying if they had the boyz statline would we spam them and the answer is yes, of course we would.
Ghorros wrote: The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
Marmatag wrote: All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
Let's compare these Boyz to a similar troop unit: Cultists.
Cultists are 10pts cheaper but for your 10pts you get +1WS (yes at the loss of of 1BS but Slugga boys don't care about shooting), you get +1T and +1A. Your speed problem is solved by the ability to take dedicated transport, something cultists can't do. Your leadership problem is solved by a 15pt Nob with a boss poll, who will out punch a cultist champion any day (and can also take down IK if you give him a klaw). 60pts gives you a cheap troop choice that can actually hit and hit hard, asking for them to be tougher than they are is just greedy. As a CSM player I would love for Cultists to get Ork Boyz' rules.
Are we really comparing a unit that people tend to take only to sit on objectives in the backline gone to ground with a unit that is supposed to get up into melee and hopefully do damage?
Also Cultists aren't the mainstay of a force for us CSM players.
We are comparing two cheap troop choices for around the same price, one can do nothing more than hold down objectives, the other can hold down objectives and also smash face rather impressively. Ork lists don't have to centre around boyz and many don't but most have boyz at their core because they're a good troop choice.
Cultists aren't the backbone of a CSM force because cultists aren't that good. If cultists had Ork boyz' loadouts wouldn't you take loads of them?
I was saying if they had the boyz statline would we spam them and the answer is yes, of course we would.
No, I really wouldn't, because unlike Orks my other slots have things that are actually worth taking even before my Slaaneshi troops gained their new detachment. We also have tons of different cultist formations for fearless, zealot, returns on 4+ etc...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/15 19:39:54
Plus we get infiltrating Cultists that can potentially come back. Why would anyone want Ork Boyz?
cause orks don't have cultists?
Also you keep forgetting trukks and the fact that boyz can be obsec and fill a cad requirement while regenerating cultists can't.
And once again, the fact that boyz are not 'amazing' doesn't make them automatically bad. They have their place. I've used a trukk of boyz to great succsess for quite some time. Including tourney games vs some hard lists. One could say that footslogging ork blobz are weak in the current meta - and it's often true but there are also some exceptions (biker or megaarmored boss, for example). But you can't take the trukk out of equation cause it's the boy'z dedicated transport. And a trukk is one of the best cheap assault transports in the game - if not THE best.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/01/15 21:07:58
No, I really wouldn't, because unlike Orks my other slots have things that are actually worth taking even before my Slaaneshi troops gained their new detachment. We also have tons of different cultist formations for fearless, zealot, returns on 4+ etc...
You clearly aren't paying attention to what I said: if cultists gain Ork statline and rules you would spam them. That means you can still take cultist formations but the cultists now have boy rules. I would pay over 60pts to have an Ork boy statline for my LatD plague zombies army.
Now you might say "that's not a fair comparison, Orks don't have formations like the LatD" well I say that's more to do with Orks being neglected a decurion update rather than Boyz being bad because you and I both know that, given the choice, we would rather have Ork boy cultists than regular cultists any day of the week.
Ghorros wrote: The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
Marmatag wrote: All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
Plus we get infiltrating Cultists that can potentially come back. Why would anyone want Ork Boyz?
We get infiltrate + regen cultists from formations not the base units. I was saying if they had the boyz statline would we spam them and the answer is yes, of course we would.
Um no we wouldn't because we would still use the minimum amount to get other good stuff or just as objective holders.
You don't seem like the kind of person that used the CSM codex before TL.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Plus we get infiltrating Cultists that can potentially come back. Why would anyone want Ork Boyz?
We get infiltrate + regen cultists from formations not the base units. I was saying if they had the boyz statline would we spam them and the answer is yes, of course we would.
Um no we wouldn't because we would still use the minimum amount to get other good stuff or just as objective holders.
You don't seem like the kind of person that used the CSM codex before TL.
I have been playing CSM for almost 10 years now and I am telling you that Ork boyz instead of cultists would have made me very happy. As someone who started off playing Khorne, Khornate boyz would have been a god send seeing as how Bezerkers are awful.
No, boy cultists wouldn't make much difference in the comp armies that CSM used to have: biker lord with spawn, plague marine melta rhino spam, nurgle bikers, etc. But it would have opened up a new line of Khorne themed armies which would have reflected what Orks bow run but with a Lord rather than a boss and it would have made plague zombies even better.
Your lack of vision when it comes to the application of Cultist boyz makes me think that you aren't really that much of a CSM fan.
Ghorros wrote: The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
Marmatag wrote: All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
The real meat and potatos of a competitive ork list are zhadsnark, Msu bikers, 100 point bustas in trukk, lootas, solo koptas, fearless MANz with killsaws.
Vs tau, you can outflank. Bikers and tankbustas shooting is very effective, zhad and bullyboyz can wipe anything the tau have in cc. Orks tend to dominate early game objectives, the tau don't like getting in close to physically grab an objective like orks can. Zhad, his unit of bikers, and koptas may not be as mobile as the tau during the game, but can scout to seize the early game advantage. Battle wagons can be used this way too. This makes the outflank pretty dangerous and allows the orks to stay in the game during later turns.
Vs necrons bikers shine with their 3+ jink and zhads 2+ jink. A good list should have at least 57 tl s5 shots just from their bikers while maxing tankbustas for 39 total s8 ap3 rokkits and with s9 on the charge and the necrons lacking ap2 in ccMANz can absolutely mulch through anything the necrons have save wraiths, lynch guard, and the overlord. Bikers can tarpit wraiths effectively with their speed and T5. Orks always outnumber necrons and are faster than the decurion so a cagey ork player should almost always win maelstrom.
Vs eldar they have problems securing objectives. We can outnumber their windriders with our warbikers pretty easy so in terms of fast obsec it's a draw. Bullyboyz and zhad pose a real threat to a wraithknight while we can field enough lootas and bustas to harrass it from afar. Lootas make hay with s7 ap4 and average 2 shots, ten per min squad. Good for Crimson hunters, Falcons, wave serpent, fliers, and especially most of their aspect warriors like swooping Hawks and warp spiders. (48" range helps with flicker jump.) powerklaws and rokkits ID pretty much anything eldar have. Koptas with jink and tl rokkits are a total pain.
If you check the tournament ratings thread, the orks place surprisingly high, especially considering they aren't viewed as "competitive" enough to attract the power gamer crowd.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/01/16 05:12:00
Regarding Orks, they have poor ally choices, next to no utility/tech pieces, extremely limited Psykers, no meaningful Deep Strike, super-limited Outflank (Bossboyz are cool and all, but that negates your Waaagh), no Melta, rending, or Ranged Ignores Cover. They're arguably the only army with an array of Special Rules that actively work against them, including the only Walkers that can be pinned.
It's because of this that they're kept afloat by point-efficient Bikes and Artillery and cheap throwaway scoring units, and generous ITC allowances. Beyond that, they're in a sad state of affairs.
Plus we get infiltrating Cultists that can potentially come back. Why would anyone want Ork Boyz?
We get infiltrate + regen cultists from formations not the base units. I was saying if they had the boyz statline would we spam them and the answer is yes, of course we would.
Um no we wouldn't because we would still use the minimum amount to get other good stuff or just as objective holders.
You don't seem like the kind of person that used the CSM codex before TL.
I have been playing CSM for almost 10 years now and I am telling you that Ork boyz instead of cultists would have made me very happy. As someone who started off playing Khorne, Khornate boyz would have been a god send seeing as how Bezerkers are awful.
No, boy cultists wouldn't make much difference in the comp armies that CSM used to have: biker lord with spawn, plague marine melta rhino spam, nurgle bikers, etc. But it would have opened up a new line of Khorne themed armies which would have reflected what Orks bow run but with a Lord rather than a boss and it would have made plague zombies even better.
Your lack of vision when it comes to the application of Cultist boyz makes me think that you aren't really that much of a CSM fan.
And that's what KDK Cultists are for. Otherwise Cultists are always minimum point objective grabbers. Nobody wants a point increase for them because you think they might do better. They won't.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
slip wrote: The real meat and potatos of a competitive ork list are zhadsnark, Msu bikers, 100 point bustas in trukk, lootas, solo koptas, fearless MANz with killsaws.
Vs tau, you can outflank. Bikers and tankbustas shooting is very effective, zhad and bullyboyz can wipe anything the tau have in cc. Orks tend to dominate early game objectives, the tau don't like getting in close to physically grab an objective like orks can. Zhad, his unit of bikers, and koptas may not be as mobile as the windriders during the game, but can scout to seize the early game advantage. Battle wagons can be used this way too. This makes the outflank pretty dangerous and allows the orks to stay in the game during later turns.
Vs necrons bikers shine with their 3+ jink and zhads 2+ jink. A good list should have at least 57 tl s5 shots just from their bikers while maxing tankbustas for 39 total s8 ap3 rokkits and with s9 on the charge and the necrons lacking ap2 in ccMANz can absolutely mulch through anything the necrons have save wraiths, lynch guard, and the overlord. Bikers can tarpit wraiths effectively with their speed and T5. Orks always outnumber necrons and are faster than the decurion so a cagey ork player should almost always win maelstrom.
Vs eldar they have problems securing objectives. We can outnumber their windriders with our warbikers pretty easy so in terms of fast obsec it's a draw. Bullyboyz and zhad pose a real threat to a wraithknight while we can field enough lootas and bustas to harrass it from afar. Lootas make hay with s7 ap4 and average 2 shots, ten per min squad. Good for Crimson hunters, Falcons, wave serpent, fliers, and especially most of their aspect warriors like swooping Hawks and warp spiders. (48" range helps with flicker jump.) powerklaws and rokkits ID pretty much anything eldar have. Koptas with jink and tl rokkits are a total pain.
If you check the tournament ratings thread, the orks place surprisingly high, especially considering they aren't viewed as "competitive" enough to attract the power gamer crowd.
Why would Tomb Blades ever care about your jink save?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/16 00:33:44
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
That's one aspect of one unit. My list is zhad, lvl 2 weirdboy, 6x bikers, 6x bustas in trukk, 3x bully MANz. I can scout or outflank zhad and 3x bikers. Even if you maxed tomblades and spent all game blastin bikes you probably wouldn't get them all and there's way bigger problems. Not that I'm trashing necrons, they're the ork hard counter, but I'm more terrified of pylons, wraiths, and what character is gonna eat your overlords challenge.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/16 01:33:44
Idk about this one. Every batrep i see, the orks usually win or barely lose. Which gives me hope, but then i think back to the year and a half after i got orks and lost everg game, frequently getting tabled. I think in really casual games, theyre fine. When put up against any kind of cheese though, they quickly crumble. I have, however found they have a kind of anti-meta effect though, given that they dont care about grav or other high strength low ap weapons since they dont have any save to begin with.
Shoota boyz can be effective when paired with the blitz brigade. Killkannon for the wagon, shoota boyz can still fire, are cheap, fill CAD, give obsec. Blitz brigade gives 5x battle wagons with scout. As a Dakka unit it synergizes well because it doesn't care about charging so scout can be optimized. One of the two weaknesses of ork shooting is range, and this helps negate that.
Boyz by themselves are not that impressive and the days of the 30 man blobs are out. They need to be msu'd. 10 with nob with pk and bp is 100, 135 with trukk and you can take up to 12 with a double cad. Msu play negates ld, any individual unit is a write off anyway. The fate of 24 boyz and a nob doesn't rest on the 6 who died. This also helps negate mob rule. This list would dominate maelstrom, especially early, and could walk away with a win if the game cannot be played to completion, as they would struggle more in the later part of the game.
All this to say, many competitive players forgo boyz altogether for Msu obsec grots or Msu warbikes.
slip wrote: That's one aspect of one unit. My list is zhad, lvl 2 weirdboy, 6x bikers, 6x bustas in trukk, 3x bully MANz. I can scout or outflank zhad and 3x bikers. Even if you maxed tomblades and spent all game blastin bikes you probably wouldn't get them all and there's way bigger problems. Not that I'm trashing necrons, they're the ork hard counter, but I'm more terrified of pylons, wraiths, and what character is gonna eat your overlords challenge.
Tomb Blades are AP4 and Ignores Cover. You said Tomb Blades were scared of Bikers because of that aspect.
I don't actually think you've played against Necrons.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
slip wrote: That's one aspect of one unit. My list is zhad, lvl 2 weirdboy, 6x bikers, 6x bustas in trukk, 3x bully MANz. I can scout or outflank zhad and 3x bikers. Even if you maxed tomblades and spent all game blastin bikes you probably wouldn't get them all and there's way bigger problems. Not that I'm trashing necrons, they're the ork hard counter, but I'm more terrified of pylons, wraiths, and what character is gonna eat your overlords challenge.
Tomb Blades are AP4 and Ignores Cover. You said Tomb Blades were scared of Bikers because of that aspect.
I don't actually think you've played against Necrons.
Quote it. I'm pretty sure I was referring to necrons in general.
I've played enough to know that that my entire army can cover the range of your weapons in a turn and I'm fast enough and numerous enough to pick who fights where, to the point that one round of shooting from generally 1-3 units isn't gonna make the difference.
E: like are you running a decurion or not? How's the rest of that gauss weaponry doing against the bikers? Yes, having jink against necrons is useful. Especially when playing with trukks that need to be screened. Their value is undeniable.
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2017/01/16 07:25:43
The point is: how many tomb blades a necron player would bring? i usually see 3-6 tomb blades and we're talking about orks lists with more than 20 warbikes. Also tomb blades are among the less resilient units for necrons so they'll recive a lot of attention turn 1. They're not that scary for our bikes unless you bring a tailored list with 12 tomb blades. The canoptek harvest is the real issue as neither the meganobz are really effective against them and our firepower can slow them down killing a few, but we can't really destroy them from distance and probably in close combat too, unless we throw against them 600+ points of dedicated melee units.
And that's what KDK Cultists are for. Otherwise Cultists are always minimum point objective grabbers. Nobody wants a point increase for them because you think they might do better. They won't.
They would though. Cultists are close to guardsman levels of uselessness in cc, only just better because of two cc weapons. Ork boyz can and have mowed down everything from guardsman, to termimators, to bikers and even IK, if cultists had such wide utility then people would easily take more of them.
Once again, your adamance that no one would take hordes of Ork boy cultists makes me believe that you don't even actually play warhammer! The tactucs I have outlined are some that reflect Ork tactics that have been used to place quite highly in ITC tournaments, along side the top dogs. You can't just say "there rubbish, no one would take them" because players do take them, in droves! Why wouldn't CSM players take advantage of this?
Ghorros wrote: The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
Marmatag wrote: All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
And that's what KDK Cultists are for. Otherwise Cultists are always minimum point objective grabbers. Nobody wants a point increase for them because you think they might do better. They won't.
They would though. Cultists are close to guardsman levels of uselessness in cc, only just better because of two cc weapons. Ork boyz can and have mowed down everything from guardsman, to termimators, to bikers and even IK, if cultists had such wide utility then people would easily take more of them.
Once again, your adamance that no one would take hordes of Ork boy cultists makes me believe that you don't even actually play warhammer! The tactucs I have outlined are some that reflect Ork tactics that have been used to place quite highly in ITC tournaments, along side the top dogs. You can't just say "there rubbish, no one would take them" because players do take them, in droves! Why wouldn't CSM players take advantage of this?
Are you actually saying Ork Boyz have actually beaten Imperial Knights in close combat... I don't even know what to say to this at all. Power to the S4 Orks on charge with klawnob?
Also considering the fact that the latest ITC lists have come out and Ork's aren't anywhere near placed highly to the top.. yeah.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/16 09:57:52
CSM players took cultists because they were the cheapest thing you could take that filled your mandatory slots. Now that we have legion rules, everyone takes a warband and the only cultists you see are those in alpha legion & lost and the damned wheree they get special rules.
As for if CSM got Ork statline troops, well, we did - Tzaangors. They even get their own formation that lets them run and charge and still nobody takes them because they're trash. Why wouldn't we take advantage of it? Because there's nothing to take advantage of. T4 is almost irrelevant, Str3 IS irrelevant, moving 6" a turn is irrelevant, a 6+ "save" is not only irrelevant but absolutely laughable. CSM players are already pushing a heavy rock up a sharp incline, there's no need to make the incline sharper nor the rock heavier by taking units that are worse than the ones we already have. Even if you spend the 4ppm to give them 'Eavy armour, now they're what, 10 ppm? Compare that to the 13ppm of a world eater marine and they're just so much better than a boy that it's not funny. The only thing CSM want out of the Ork dex are Trucks, maaaaaaybe battle wagons.
Orks are decent in a casual setting and will crumble in most competative settings outside of the occassional meta busting lists and/or extreme generalship. Orks have a lower ceiling than other lists because where they used to be able to have more targets than you had bullets, the focus on high RoF, mid Str, relatively poor AP guns means that orks are in a sad state. The mass availability of ignores cover and the fact that it's almost mandatory is one of the other things that will firmly keep orks out of the top half of the tier list as the fact that outside of MAN's and a MA warboss they have basically nothing that won't get absolutely shredded by wyverns, thunderfire cannons, tau HYMP's, MP's and SMS as well as almost anything with the Imperium of Man faction as they can throw a div or geomancy psycher into almost any squad they feel like and hand out ignores cover.
Then you've got the fact that orks struggle to deal with mech in the era of the gladius and you're already in a world of pain, then you have Imperial Knights that are effectively immune to ork shooting and are only worried about a single model in CC, let alone things like wraithknights who don't even care about PK nobs. We also get to the issue of the other CC armies like barkbark star where you don't have any real hope of doing any sort of meaningful damage while they will evaporate anything they touch. You've also got things like Necron wraiths who have the mobility to engage you wherever they like while you again are going to struggle to cause any meaningful damage to them.
No, boyz are not great and Orks aren't fine in a competative environment. I can't believe it took as long as it did for someone to point out the obvious, almost the entire first page, only to be met with fingers in ears denial of what should be bleedingly obvious. Yes, some very, very skilled players had reasonable success with certain builds, but I would in fact wager that they can make almost anything work. There was one thread here on Dakka about an Ork general that placed... 9th or 10th and NOVA or Adepticon or something - That was a great read and well played and I salute him for that effort, but I'd also wager that 9 out of 10 players couldn't make orks work at the higher levels of competition sufficiently to place in the top half of the field and to me, that's the signal of a low tier codex.
Peregrine wrote: What, you don't like rolling dice to see how many dice you roll? Why are you such an anti-dice bigot?
Are you actually saying Ork Boyz have actually beaten Imperial Knights in close combat... I don't even know what to say to this at all. Power to the S4 Orks on charge with klawnob?
Once klawnobs are in cc with a knight, the knight is dead.
Also considering the fact that the latest ITC lists have come out and Ork's aren't anywhere near placed highly to the top.. yeah.
Consider that the ITC board is filled with Eldar, Necron, Dark Angel bikers, Daemons, etc. We are saying Orks aren't that bad, not Orks are going to easily win every ITC event.
Ghorros wrote: The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
Marmatag wrote: All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
Once klawnobs are in cc with a knight, the knight is dead.
Okay at this point I honestly believe you are trying to troll me. This is such a statistical anomaly as, lets give credit to the fact that we are using baseline Paladins rather then actual horde clearers IK you'll have to have your klawnobs in your ork boy squads survive double shot battlecannons, the LD tests that would come about from losing large amounts of boyz and mob rule, get into melee with something that moves 12" a turn, and then survive the Chainsword/stomps to deal enough damage each turn to knock off the HP's against AV13.
