Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

BrianDavion wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
They can, I just find it unlikely that the Raven Guard will, particularly with Shrike in command now. Though with his own problems on the way in the form of a massive WAAAGH! I can imagine him politely turning down the request or requesting assistance before he can help.

when did Shrike become chapter master?

In the Damocles series, the chapter master was killed by Shadowsun, Shrike got promoted.

I could actually see him being at odds with the other chapters. He will innately want to change a great many things and marine chapters are as guilty as anyone else of maintaining the status quo of grimdark as much as anyone else.

It's actually a bit of a mystery, given their independence, how the chapters came to also be so backwards as the rest of the Imperium. Like, how did Ultramar ever succumb to the technological ignorance of the modern Imperium?

 Nevelon wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 rawne2510 wrote:
My Raven Gaurd will tell him in no uncertain terms to Foxtrot Oscar if he even implied that he was giving them an order.

One of the Chapters that supported Guilliman the most in the reformations is gonna tell him to FO?

To be fair, they should.

If he just up and orders them to do something, they have every right to tell him to get stuffed. That’s why he broke up the legions in the first place.

If he asks nicely for help with a problem, and they agree to place themselves in a joint crusade under his overall command, then he can order them around.

But they need to agree first. That’s why the legions were broken up in the first place.

Asks them nicely? Holy gak these threads are depressing. If you're into debating military in a sci-fi universe, it would help if you had the slightest understanding of military, warzones, war, command structures, and authority.

"Dear Chapter Master of the Raven Guard. This is Roboute Guilliman, one of the most favored sons of the immortal god that rules over our galaxy spanning Empire. We are currently in a desperate battle for our species, it's all or nothing. I have generally been accepted as the greatest strategic genius among humankind to ever walk the galaxy. During the Crusade my Legion consisted of nearly 100 thousand Space Marines, and I had overall command over multiple Legions during many campaigns. Could you please, kindly, assist me in saving our race from enslavement to warp entities, by sending me 100 of your Marines to assist me in a mission? Pretty please?"

This thread should have ended when one previous poster said that every Space Marine chapter is free to select how they choose to execute a campaign, but they would still defer to a Primarch's authority over the overall cause of action. They'd do it gladly. Thankfully even. If I'm not being clear, this means, Guilliman says, you're all going to defend Terra, now. Everyone goes. They just get to choose which road they take, and which Chaos scum they want to fight first, and how, but even that freedom of choice is an illusion, because every other choice than doing exactly what a genius has planned for you would be just doing your job less effectively than you could. The whole premise is ridiculous anyway. Every Space Marine during 'present day' would be honored to fight and die next to Roboute Guilliman, or any one of the glorious loyalist Primarches who stood against Chaos during heresy.

Primarches are like gods compared to normal Space Marine heroes of legend. Gods that transcend race, species, and Space Marine chapter. This has been well covered in many HH books, where Space Marines of other Legions look up to Primaches of other Legions in awe and disbelief. I can't think of any loyal fighter for mankind who wouldn't happily follow Guilliman. He'll be titled Warmaster, Lord Commander or Blue Baby Jesus if he wants to. He's not only a god among them, but he's won before. He won when the war couldn't be won. Just like it can't be won now. And he'll win again.

 Big Mac wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
They can, I just find it unlikely that the Raven Guard will, particularly with Shrike in command now. Though with his own problems on the way in the form of a massive WAAAGH! I can imagine him politely turning down the request or requesting assistance before he can help.

when did Shrike become chapter master?

In the Damocles series, the chapter master was killed by Shadowsun, Shrike got promoted.

Not only did Shrike become Chapter Master, the Raven Guard went to Marneus Calgar to help them pick.

 Therion wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 rawne2510 wrote:
My Raven Gaurd will tell him in no uncertain terms to Foxtrot Oscar if he even implied that he was giving them an order.

One of the Chapters that supported Guilliman the most in the reformations is gonna tell him to FO?

To be fair, they should.

If he just up and orders them to do something, they have every right to tell him to get stuffed. That’s why he broke up the legions in the first place.

If he asks nicely for help with a problem, and they agree to place themselves in a joint crusade under his overall command, then he can order them around.

But they need to agree first. That’s why the legions were broken up in the first place.

Asks them nicely? Holy gak these threads are depressing. If you're into debating military in a sci-fi universe, it would help if you had the slightest understanding of military, warzones, war, command structures, and authority.

"Dear Chapter Master of the Raven Guard. This is Roboute Guilliman, one of the most favored sons of the immortal god that rules over our galaxy spanning Empire. We are currently in a desperate battle for our species, it's all or nothing. I have generally been accepted as the greatest strategic genius among humankind to ever walk the galaxy. During the Crusade my Legion consisted of nearly 100 thousand Space Marines, and I had overall command over multiple Legions during many campaigns. Could you please, kindly, assist me in saving our race from enslavement to warp entities, by sending me 100 of your Marines to assist me in a mission? Pretty please?"

This thread should have ended when one previous poster said that every Space Marine chapter is free to select how they choose to execute a campaign, but they would still defer to a Primarch's authority over the overall cause of action. They'd do it gladly. Thankfully even. If I'm not being clear, this means, Guilliman says, you're all going to defend Terra, now. Everyone goes. They just get to choose which road they take, and which Chaos scum they want to fight first, and how, but even that freedom of choice is an illusion, because every other choice than doing exactly what a genius has planned for you would be just doing your job less effectively than you could. The whole premise is ridiculous anyway. Every Space Marine during 'present day' would be honored to fight and die next to Roboute Guilliman, or any one of the glorious loyalist Primarches who stood against Chaos during heresy.

Primarches are like gods compared to normal Space Marine heroes of legend. Gods that transcend race, species, and Space Marine chapter. This has been well covered in many HH books, where Space Marines of other Legions look up to Primaches of other Legions in awe and disbelief. I can't think of any loyal fighter for mankind who wouldn't happily follow Guilliman. He'll be titled Warmaster, Lord Commander or Blue Baby Jesus if he wants to. He's not only a god among them, but he's won before. He won when the war couldn't be won. Just like it can't be won now. And he'll win again.

I’m sure Horus had some compelling things to say when he lead half the legions into rebellion.

Which is why Guilliman broke up the legions, so no one person, no mater who, could order that many marines again.

To be fair, if someone of the caliber of Calgar, Dante, of Grimnar said “Cadia has fallen and the Black legion is burning it’s way to terra, this is an all-hands-on-deck crisis. We need every loyalist marine to form a crusade that has not been seen since the heresy to drive them back into the Eye of Terror” most chapters would fall into line and join up. The fact that a Primarch is saying it adds a whole other layer of seriousness on top of that.

The whole thing is like a finicky RAW argument. Technically RG can’t command more then the 1,000 men in the Ultramarine chapter. Barring legacy titles from his time before his necktie. Practically he has the loyalty and obedience of pretty much every loyalist marine.

Part of me wants Guilliman to knock Calgar and Molocs heads together and tell them to get along.

But most of me knows that the Forge World chapters will be ignored.

 Crazyterran wrote:
Part of me wants Guilliman to knock Calgar and Molocs heads together and tell them to get along.

But most of me knows that the Forge World chapters will be ignored.

Roboute: I've been away for some time. Let's get to know some of the Chapters that have been made since I was put in stasis.

Uriel Ventris: Of course, my Primarch. Today, we'll be meeting representatives from the Marines Malevolent, Minotaurs, and Carcharodons Astra.

Roboute: Excellent. Send in the representative from the Marines Malevolent. I'm not sure the name is in the spirit of the Imperium or the Emperor's love of humanity, so let's get the worst out of the way.

*A Marine Malevolent enters*

Roboute: Greetings, Space Marine. Tell me of the exploits of your Chapter.

Marine Malevolent: Well, once while fighting Orks, the greenskins captured a number of civilians and tried to use them as negotiating chips. We triangulated the location of the prison camp and bombarded the entire site with Whirlwinds to kill any Kommandos that might be hiding among them.

Roboute: GET OUT OF MY SIGHT!

Uriel Ventris: Well, that went well. Are you ready for the next one, my Lord?

Roboute: Yes. I could do with something more noble. These Carcharodons Astra still maintain names in High Gothic. Surely, these will be Marines that remember the old responsibilities of the Legions to defend humanity. Send their representative in.

Uriel Ventris: Yes, Primarch.

*A Carcharodon enters*

Roboute: Greetings, Space Marine. Tell me of the exploits of your Chapter.

Carcharodon: During the Badad War, we were tasked with rooting out the Mantis Warriors Chapter, which had evaded efforts to bring them to battle.

Roboute: Excellent! Tell me of your cunning plan to track their fleet.

Carcharodon: He had a better plan than tracking. Knowing that the Mantis Warriors were honorable soldiers dedicated to protecting the defenseless, we landed on their recruiting worlds and slaughtered civilians until they met us in battle.

Roboute: Why were you fighting your Brother Marines?

Carcharodon: We were told that if we did, we could force the remaining civilians to fight to the death in gladitorial games so we could recruit the best into our Chapter.

Roboute: You what?! In the name of Terra, how could you do something so horrible?

Carcharodon: Oh! I left out the best part! When the combined Space Marine forces attacked Badab, we were tasked with making a distraction, so we sabotaged the geothermal plants at the planet's core and blew it up! Everyone was so distracted that most couldn't escape the planet.

Roboute: DEPART FROM MY SIGHT AND NEVER RETURN!

Uriel Ventris: Are you ready for the Minotaur, my Primarch?

Roboute: Yes, Uriel.

*A Minotaur enters*

Minotaur: We, the Minotaurs, are loyal only to the High Lords of Terra and specialize in killing Space Marines that piss them off.

Roboute: *BLAM*

how are those chapters any more effed up then some of the Legions before the heresy though.

Let's look at some of the legions shall we?


World Eaters: we pound something into our brain that makes us bezerkers barely capable of higher thought and slaughter everything!

Night Hunters: we scare the gak out of everyone.... and then slaughter everything.

Thousand Sons: ignore the demon on my shoulder and let me tell you how smart I am!

 Nevelon wrote:
To be fair, if someone of the caliber of Calgar, Dante, of Grimnar said “Cadia has fallen and the Black legion is burning it’s way to terra, this is an all-hands-on-deck crisis. We need every loyalist marine to form a crusade that has not been seen since the heresy to drive them back into the Eye of Terror” most chapters would fall into line and join up. The fact that a Primarch is saying it adds a whole other layer of seriousness on top of that.

But of course, him being the guy that split up the Legions in the first place would probably mean one of two things: a) stuff is desperate enough he calls them up again or b) he's reforming the Legions to take power.

Many Chapters would undoubtedly flock to him for the ultimate glorious battle, but others would stand off to see what the hell he's up to. And I imagine the High Lords would also be wary of a returned demigod. Even with all the Chapters on his side not even Guilliman can get through the Imperial Navy with enough assets to attack the Sol system with any hope of pushing through. And both parties would leave pretty much everything else with it's boxers hanging in the void if they caused such a show-off, so they wouldn't unless in their opinion it was the really ultimately last way to save everything.

So it all ends in a centuries-long debate (realistically) or a 15-minute impassioned speech by Guilliman (well known for those I imagine) where everyone magically decides to defer to a 10,000 years out of place superhuman, when the last known active examples are still fighting for the wrong side in a not terribly effective way. Or in other words, the Chaos Primarchs have been nothing but useless idiots stuck in their warp realms for ten thousand years, why rile them up with a real Loyalist Primarch now?

 Therion wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 rawne2510 wrote:
My Raven Gaurd will tell him in no uncertain terms to Foxtrot Oscar if he even implied that he was giving them an order.

One of the Chapters that supported Guilliman the most in the reformations is gonna tell him to FO?

To be fair, they should.

If he just up and orders them to do something, they have every right to tell him to get stuffed. That’s why he broke up the legions in the first place.

If he asks nicely for help with a problem, and they agree to place themselves in a joint crusade under his overall command, then he can order them around.

But they need to agree first. That’s why the legions were broken up in the first place.

Asks them nicely? Holy gak these threads are depressing. If you're into debating military in a sci-fi universe, it would help if you had the slightest understanding of military, warzones, war, command structures, and authority.

"Dear Chapter Master of the Raven Guard. This is Roboute Guilliman, one of the most favored sons of the immortal god that rules over our galaxy spanning Empire. We are currently in a desperate battle for our species, it's all or nothing. I have generally been accepted as the greatest strategic genius among humankind to ever walk the galaxy. During the Crusade my Legion consisted of nearly 100 thousand Space Marines, and I had overall command over multiple Legions during many campaigns. Could you please, kindly, assist me in saving our race from enslavement to warp entities, by sending me 100 of your Marines to assist me in a mission? Pretty please?"

This thread should have ended when one previous poster said that every Space Marine chapter is free to select how they choose to execute a campaign, but they would still defer to a Primarch's authority over the overall cause of action. They'd do it gladly. Thankfully even. If I'm not being clear, this means, Guilliman says, you're all going to defend Terra, now. Everyone goes. They just get to choose which road they take, and which Chaos scum they want to fight first, and how, but even that freedom of choice is an illusion, because every other choice than doing exactly what a genius has planned for you would be just doing your job less effectively than you could. The whole premise is ridiculous anyway. Every Space Marine during 'present day' would be honored to fight and die next to Roboute Guilliman, or any one of the glorious loyalist Primarches who stood against Chaos during heresy.

Primarches are like gods compared to normal Space Marine heroes of legend. Gods that transcend race, species, and Space Marine chapter. This has been well covered in many HH books, where Space Marines of other Legions look up to Primaches of other Legions in awe and disbelief. I can't think of any loyal fighter for mankind who wouldn't happily follow Guilliman. He'll be titled Warmaster, Lord Commander or Blue Baby Jesus if he wants to. He's not only a god among them, but he's won before. He won when the war couldn't be won. Just like it can't be won now. And he'll win again.

I can tell you straight up if President Trump tried to tell a British unit to start doing stuff off his own back without going through the Prime Minister and Military chiefs he would get told to FO as well. You are talking gak if you think any different and you think that current military context works any different.

The reason allies work together is because of the agreements made before hand. Gulliman wouldn´t be stupid enough to just order other chapters to do his bidding because he understand tactics and the art of diplomacy.

Will he have authority over other chapter? Only if he asks their leaders if he can (Of which very few would decline). It would be like saying that all the chaos legions would follow Magnus as he is a Primarch (I very much doubt they would)



Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:
how are those chapters any more effed up then some of the Legions before the heresy though.

Let's look at some of the legions shall we?


World Eaters: we pound something into our brain that makes us bezerkers barely capable of higher thought and slaughter everything!

Night Hunters: we scare the gak out of everyone.... and then slaughter everything.

Thousand Sons: ignore the demon on my shoulder and let me tell you how smart I am!

Because all 3 chapter are from the Ultramarines. They are his kin, his blood.

Because all 3 chapter are from the Ultramarines. They are his kin, his blood.

the Marines Malevolent and Minotaurs MIGHT be sure but the Caracadons? unlikely, they're all but confirmed as Raven Guard

Guilliman - Grimnar. I want your Wolves to attack that side.
Grimnar - I want a real back-story, shame we don't always get what we want.
Guilliman - You ever hear about how the Emperor got the Loyalty of Leman Russ?
Grimnar - The contests?
Guilliman punches Grimnar out.
Guilliman to the Wolves - I'll be giving orders until he wakes up. Then I'll be giving you orders through him.

Even if he tried to and I still played loyalists, ain't no way my dudes would bow down to papa smurf.

I'm not sure how much this'll relate to Space Marines, but reading towards the end of "the Emperor's gift" has a telling insight. when Bjorn comes out even previously BELLIGERANT inqusitors are basicly gobsmacked, and inbsanely respectful, mearly because Bjorn walked the earth at the same time as the Emperor, a Primarch (especially one like Gulliman whose so storied) is apt to be treated like a living GOD upon their return. frankly Gulliman won't even NEED the space marines, he'll have regiments of guard and fleets of Imperial navy ships flocking to him.

Is it possible that they'd move the storyline in a way that the ultras reform back into a legion? Because ultras.

rawne2510 wrote:I can tell you straight up if President Trump tried to tell a British unit to start doing stuff off his own back without going through the Prime Minister and Military chiefs he would get told to FO as well. You are talking gak if you think any different and you think that current military context works any different.

The reason allies work together is because of the agreements made before hand. Gulliman wouldn´t be stupid enough to just order other chapters to do his bidding because he understand tactics and the art of diplomacy.

Will he have authority over other chapter? Only if he asks their leaders if he can (Of which very few would decline). It would be like saying that all the chaos legions would follow Magnus as he is a Primarch (I very much doubt they would)

Firstly, I have actually served in the military. Fired pistols, assault rifles, rocket propelled grenades, thrown grenades. Taken orders. Given orders. This is while you were playing with toy soldiers. I know a little bit about the military.

Secondly, your analogy is tragically bad. There is no Planet Earth spanning Imperium that protects its citizens from extragalactic predators and multidimensional gods. You can't even go there. It'll never work. What you should've tried to argue is that for example the Navy Seals don't need to take orders from the Delta Force. Instead you went the 'I'm twelve and proud of it' route and talked about Trump and what not as if there's even the slightest connection between some piece of paper pact between the UK and the US and the Space Marine chapters jointly defending humankind from extinction. Shamefully bad attempt by you, really. Roboute Guilliman is an eternal demigod, and Space Marines are born to fight and die, and for them the cream always rises to the top. The most qualified warrior is in charge, because it's not about ego, it's about winning.

What you should've understood from my message is that the Imperium's war machine is an army much like any other. There's navy in there, army, special forces units, reserves, and so on. You're still on the same side, and when the supreme demigod general, the son of your immortal emperor, the most succesful, lauded, loved, respected and feared general of the past ten millennia, gives orders, people take them, and in the army you don't 'ask anyone nicely'. You tell them what to do if you have the position to do so, and people do what they are told, because to do anything else, for example have a 'debate' about it, would be ineffective and outright dangerous for everyone. This is a fact you'll probably never understand.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
If he's going to Terra, its likely to take his seat back with the High Lords of Terra.

So the assassins sent from the High Lords take him out when he lands or does his battlebarge have an accident?

In a "real world" scenario, the HLs would view him as an incredible threat, a warlord from the past "returning," to take their power. yea thats not going to happen easily.

Three things to consider.

One - marines are gene coded to respond to primarchs.

Two - In the beast rising story, Imperial Fists, Dark Angels, Blood Angels and Space Wolves dropped the knee to Vulkan. Instantly. No questions, no ifs, no ands, no buts. One knee straight away. And that was after a thousand years, to Vulkan. As much i love vulkan, he's not got the name Gulliman has.

Three - Half the chapters in existence hail from his gene line. They venerate him as something as close to a god as you can get, without being religious. The question wont be if they bend knee, it'll be how long it takes them.

GW chose him for a reason. Abbadon is coming with the all the legions of hell at his back. In 40k, Space Marines are king, so GW need a mega event with them front and centre. Only Gulliman can bring the bulk of the Astartes to earth.

Will he have authoity? You better believe he will. He wont even have to ask for it.

 Therion wrote:


Firstly, I have actually served in the military. Fired pistols, assault rifles, rocket propelled grenades, thrown grenades. Taken orders. Given orders. This is while you were playing with toy soldiers. I know a little bit about the military.

You arent the only one who plays this hobby to have done any of those things, and frankly your attidude is one of those from a former serviceman that helps give the rest of your comrades a bad image in the eyes of the general public, so congratulations.

Secondly, your analogy is tragically bad. There is no Planet Earth spanning Imperium that protects its citizens from extragalactic predators and multidimensional gods. You can't even go there. It'll never work. What you should've tried to argue is that for example the Navy Seals don't need to take orders from the Delta Force. Instead you went the 'I'm twelve and proud of it' route and talked about Trump and what not as if there's even the slightest connection between some piece of paper pact between the UK and the US and the Space Marine chapters jointly defending humankind from extinction. Shamefully bad attempt by you, really. Roboute Guilliman is an eternal demigod, and Space Marines are born to fight and die, and for them the cream always rises to the top. The most qualified warrior is in charge, because it's not about ego, it's about winning.

His analogy does still work in this context because, yes, while all the worlds of the Imperium do answer to the High Lords and the Adeptus Terra, they do not answer to one another and in the stories frequently have Units from other worlds refusing to answer to another for various reasons.

What you should've understood from my message is that the Imperium's war machine is an army much like any other. There's navy in there, army, special forces units, reserves, and so on. You're still on the same side, and when the supreme demigod general, the son of your immortal emperor, the most succesful, lauded, loved, respected and feared general of the past ten millennia, gives orders, people take them, and in the army you don't 'ask anyone nicely'. You tell them what to do if you have the position to do so, and people do what they are told, because to do anything else, for example have a 'debate' about it, would be ineffective and outright dangerous for everyone. This is a fact you'll probably never understand.

It is an army like any other and sure they are all on the same side, but they are also on their own sides, with different Worlds having rivalries that lead to conflicts in Warzone wheres they should be fighting the enemy and not one another. Not only that but this is a world where the Special Forces when they were created were given autonomy and its well with in their right and purview to tell people to screw off and many of them regularly do. Now the demi-god that gave them the purview and independence to do exactly what they have been doing for the past 10k years and told them all he is doing it so someone like him can never take complete control no matter what, comes back and demands to be in charge, no matter if he was the Son of the Emperor you will have some Marines respond with a resounding no. Unless he handles it in a diplomatic fashion. And unless of course we are talking about the ones decended directly from him, or ones that will generally just go along with it because as you said, the most qualified to lead.

Put aside real world logic here and also remember that this is the same game where they treat Naval Combat as Ships of the Line in Space, the same universe where they have Army Units who treat future combat as though it was still the 17-1800s.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frazzled wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
If he's going to Terra, its likely to take his seat back with the High Lords of Terra.

So the assassins sent from the High Lords take him out when he lands or does his battlebarge have an accident?

In a "real world" scenario, the HLs would view him as an incredible threat, a warlord from the past "returning," to take their power. yea thats not going to happen easily.

I never said it would be easy for him, well I did say there would be no one to stop him from taking his old title back. But he can just declare himself that. And if diplomacy doesnt work with the HLOT, he can remove them, likely at great cost.

Question:
Will Roboute have authority over the chapters?

Answer:
No.
Think Horus.
Reason for undead Emperor on golden throne.
Too much power given to one individual.
If that is not good enough: Goge Vandire.

 Talizvar wrote:
Question:
Will Roboute have authority over the chapters?

Answer:
No.
Think Horus.
Reason for undead Emperor on golden throne.
Too much power given to one individual.
If that is not good enough: Goge Vandire.

Excellent points.

If he asked for help from the chapters and to take his grand strategy they would likely agree to the decision.

He is still a Primarch and they are far more likely to respect a Primarch than a human high lord or inquisition members.

Yes, but only temporary.

There have been several instances of a chapter masters, like Logan Grimnar, taking the command of all participating Imperial forces for a large scale battle. So it doesn't seem too out of the norm to have someone even more important than a chapter master take command of the battle. This is building up to be a massive battle and all imperial forces are going to want someone they can trust to lead something this huge. That person will be RG. He will be an icon and a weapon to use in battle.

Even though he did split up the chapters it doesn't mean he wouldn't take command, it would be the smart thing to do.

almost all of you are guilty of not seeing the character and just seeing the caricature.

Guilliman is at his core adaptable, he creates a theoretical and then applies a practical, this is the core of his personality.

So who cares if he split up the legions, at the time that was the best thing to do, in 40k however, it could be the best thing to take the cap off the chapters and let them grow, if that's what the practical demands.

He could and has the authority to COMMAND all the space marine chapters, he is A: A high lord, B: the Emperors son and only Heir.... think about that.

So basically he can and do whatever he pleases, but thankfully R.G is a calculated thinker and not likely to throw a wrench in the system of the Current imperium.

 Therion wrote:

rawne2510 wrote:I can tell you straight up if President Trump tried to tell a British unit to start doing stuff off his own back without going through the Prime Minister and Military chiefs he would get told to FO as well. You are talking gak if you think any different and you think that current military context works any different.

The reason allies work together is because of the agreements made before hand. Gulliman wouldn´t be stupid enough to just order other chapters to do his bidding because he understand tactics and the art of diplomacy.

Will he have authority over other chapter? Only if he asks their leaders if he can (Of which very few would decline). It would be like saying that all the chaos legions would follow Magnus as he is a Primarch (I very much doubt they would)

Firstly, I have actually served in the military. Fired pistols, assault rifles, rocket propelled grenades, thrown grenades. Taken orders. Given orders. This is while you were playing with toy soldiers. I know a little bit about the military.

Secondly, your analogy is tragically bad. There is no Planet Earth spanning Imperium that protects its citizens from extragalactic predators and multidimensional gods. You can't even go there. It'll never work. What you should've tried to argue is that for example the Navy Seals don't need to take orders from the Delta Force. Instead you went the 'I'm twelve and proud of it' route and talked about Trump and what not as if there's even the slightest connection between some piece of paper pact between the UK and the US and the Space Marine chapters jointly defending humankind from extinction. Shamefully bad attempt by you, really. Roboute Guilliman is an eternal demigod, and Space Marines are born to fight and die, and for them the cream always rises to the top. The most qualified warrior is in charge, because it's not about ego, it's about winning.

What you should've understood from my message is that the Imperium's war machine is an army much like any other. There's navy in there, army, special forces units, reserves, and so on. You're still on the same side, and when the supreme demigod general, the son of your immortal emperor, the most succesful, lauded, loved, respected and feared general of the past ten millennia, gives orders, people take them, and in the army you don't 'ask anyone nicely'. You tell them what to do if you have the position to do so, and people do what they are told, because to do anything else, for example have a 'debate' about it, would be ineffective and outright dangerous for everyone. This is a fact you'll probably never understand.

Plenty of people here have been in the military, plenty of others also understand how it works, his anaolgy was a perfectly valid one. because in a singular national military there is a clear chain of command right to the top everyone is, as you said, part of one armed forces. THAT DOESN'T WORK FOR THE IOM. there are a lot of "completely independant" armies in the IoM. the admech might as well be the UK for all the control the Imperial Guard has over them. and space marine chapters are no differant, all are fiercely independant. getting all these parts to work together does require the same kind of diplomacy needed to get NATO to work together. there's no one army and no one chain of command. Buut... this is a fact you'll proably never understand.

So I see this thread is about the advancing storyline, but I have heard next to nothing about the lore lately. Apparently a book is called "Fall of Cadia," which as an IG player sounds pretty bad. What exactly happened there? The 6th ed IG codex basically paused right as the 13th Black Crusade began, so everything since is news to me.

rawne2510 wrote:

 Therion wrote:


Asks them nicely? Holy gak these threads are depressing. If you're into debating military in a sci-fi universe, it would help if you had the slightest understanding of military, warzones, war, command structures, and authority.

"Dear Chapter Master of the Raven Guard. This is Roboute Guilliman, one of the most favored sons of the immortal god that rules over our galaxy spanning Empire. We are currently in a desperate battle for our species, it's all or nothing. I have generally been accepted as the greatest strategic genius among humankind to ever walk the galaxy. During the Crusade my Legion consisted of nearly 100 thousand Space Marines, and I had overall command over multiple Legions during many campaigns. Could you please, kindly, assist me in saving our race from enslavement to warp entities, by sending me 100 of your Marines to assist me in a mission? Pretty please?"

This thread should have ended when one previous poster said that every Space Marine chapter is free to select how they choose to execute a campaign, but they would still defer to a Primarch's authority over the overall cause of action. They'd do it gladly. Thankfully even. If I'm not being clear, this means, Guilliman says, you're all going to defend Terra, now. Everyone goes. They just get to choose which road they take, and which Chaos scum they want to fight first, and how, but even that freedom of choice is an illusion, because every other choice than doing exactly what a genius has planned for you would be just doing your job less effectively than you could. The whole premise is ridiculous anyway. Every Space Marine during 'present day' would be honored to fight and die next to Roboute Guilliman, or any one of the glorious loyalist Primarches who stood against Chaos during heresy.

Primarches are like gods compared to normal Space Marine heroes of legend. Gods that transcend race, species, and Space Marine chapter. This has been well covered in many HH books, where Space Marines of other Legions look up to Primaches of other Legions in awe and disbelief. I can't think of any loyal fighter for mankind who wouldn't happily follow Guilliman. He'll be titled Warmaster, Lord Commander or Blue Baby Jesus if he wants to. He's not only a god among them, but he's won before. He won when the war couldn't be won. Just like it can't be won now. And he'll win again.

I can tell you straight up if President Trump tried to tell a British unit to start doing stuff off his own back without going through the Prime Minister and Military chiefs he would get told to FO as well.

I agree. I recall an incident whereby an RAF Pilot was ordered to shave his moustache by the American Officer commanding the a squadron he was on exchange with. The US officer insisted he follow US regulations, so the pilot in question dug out the Queen's regulations and went to his own British CO to prove his point. The US Officer was informed in no uncertain terms that he had no right, nor any authority to order the RAF Pilot to remove his facial hair. That is just how much authority the US has over British personnel - not even the ability to order them to shave. Hence, any reference to having' the slightest understanding of military, warzones, war, command structures, and authority' is inherently flawed - allied forces don't just surrender up control just on the say so of another general who thinks he's better than anybody else.

The article in question

 Therion wrote:

rawne2510 wrote:I can tell you straight up if President Trump tried to tell a British unit to start doing stuff off his own back without going through the Prime Minister and Military chiefs he would get told to FO as well. You are talking gak if you think any different and you think that current military context works any different.

The reason allies work together is because of the agreements made before hand. Gulliman wouldn´t be stupid enough to just order other chapters to do his bidding because he understand tactics and the art of diplomacy.

Will he have authority over other chapter? Only if he asks their leaders if he can (Of which very few would decline). It would be like saying that all the chaos legions would follow Magnus as he is a Primarch (I very much doubt they would)

Firstly, I have actually served in the military. Fired pistols, assault rifles, rocket propelled grenades, thrown grenades. Taken orders. Given orders. This is while you were playing with toy soldiers. I know a little bit about the military.

Secondly, your analogy is tragically bad. There is no Planet Earth spanning Imperium that protects its citizens from extragalactic predators and multidimensional gods. You can't even go there. It'll never work. What you should've tried to argue is that for example the Navy Seals don't need to take orders from the Delta Force. Instead you went the 'I'm twelve and proud of it' route and talked about Trump and what not as if there's even the slightest connection between some piece of paper pact between the UK and the US and the Space Marine chapters jointly defending humankind from extinction. Shamefully bad attempt by you, really. Roboute Guilliman is an eternal demigod, and Space Marines are born to fight and die, and for them the cream always rises to the top. The most qualified warrior is in charge, because it's not about ego, it's about winning.

What you should've understood from my message is that the Imperium's war machine is an army much like any other. There's navy in there, army, special forces units, reserves, and so on. You're still on the same side, and when the supreme demigod general, the son of your immortal emperor, the most succesful, lauded, loved, respected and feared general of the past ten millennia, gives orders, people take them, and in the army you don't 'ask anyone nicely'. You tell them what to do if you have the position to do so, and people do what they are told, because to do anything else, for example have a 'debate' about it, would be ineffective and outright dangerous for everyone. This is a fact you'll probably never understand.

Excellent, you've served in the army - just like a number of exceedingly more polite servicemen and women on this site. You aren't special because of it. Similarly, unless you're an officer or general officer or are in a position with a higher awareness of strategic and diplomatic nuances and how they play out on a geo-political background, I humbly suggest you sit back down and think about how to articulate yourself in a more friendly manner - we're arguing about plastic space men, so there's no reason to call people out and liken them to children. You're opinion is just that - opinion.

Oh and that 'piece of paper' pact between the UK and the US - it's responsible for, amongst other things, the creation of the atomic bomb, the resolution of the Second World War, the Korean War, Cold War and both Gulf Wars - pretty much the Western World for the last 70 years has hinged on that little bit of paper. Consider that next time you're riding in your M1 Abrams with British designed armour, covered by your F-35's with British designed avionics, But of course, you've served in the military, you know this.

 jhe90 wrote:
If he asked for help from the chapters and to take his grand strategy they would likely agree to the decision.
He is still a Primarch and they are far more likely to respect a Primarch than a human high lord or inquisition members.

Which would be contrary to his breaking up Legions into chapters: to compartmentalize authority.
He was the guy who came up with this as lessons learned from the Horus Heresy, the Codex Astartes.
Rogal Dorn would come back from the dead to beat him senseless otherwise (minus his hands... another story).

 Talizvar wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:
If he asked for help from the chapters and to take his grand strategy they would likely agree to the decision.
He is still a Primarch and they are far more likely to respect a Primarch than a human high lord or inquisition members.

Which would be contrary to his breaking up Legions into chapters: to compartmentalize authority.
He was the guy who came up with this as lessons learned from the Horus Heresy, the Codex Astartes.
Rogal Dorn would come back from the dead to beat him senseless otherwise (minus his hands... another story).

But commanding them for the duration of the battle does not compromise his breaking up of the chapters.

He would effectively be Supreme Allied Commander.

De jure, no. De facto, yes.