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snip.

Caedes wrote:
Totally unrelated - but wow. I just noticed that farseer runes thing.

"Once per psychic phase, a model with this special rule can reroll any number of dice used in a single deny the witch or psychic test..."

So that enemy caster making nasty spell ... reroll his sucsesses. (Not his fails)... damn. And every psychic phase means each players phase... so that is pretty strong.

The point being you had to use that model with effect to rolling the dice. You can´t reroll deny the witch rolls against blessings because you haven´t used that model.

Caedes wrote:
Considering the soulburst rule directly inidicates what happens if you charge during the fight sub phase:
1: that it happens at end of current initiative step (so you wipe the enemy and trigger on init step 5, soulburst occurs at the end of step 5 and resumes the resulting (if applicable charge+fight at step 4)
It actually tells you when the soulburst happens and how to handle subsequent charges / new combats. And the RAI is to stop a high initiative unit charging, wiping a unit out, then recharging a new one and doing it again in the same turn.

Even back in 3rd all you could do was conosolodate into the next, locking the unit. Next turn no charge bonus and no "extra fighting" - they got rid of that (for the better I believe) and even though this gets back into that territory - allowing a full fresh fight to occur and models to essentially attack twice - that would be game breaking.

Except that you are considered locked in combat until you have consolidated. At which point it is too late to Soulburst with the unit that was in the combat. I suggest you re-read the thread as to the reasons why.

Caedes wrote:
Totally unrelated - but wow. I just noticed that farseer runes thing.

"Once per psychic phase, a model with this special rule can reroll any number of dice used in a single deny the witch or psychic test..."

So that enemy caster making nasty spell ... reroll his sucsesses. (Not his fails)... damn. And every psychic phase means each players phase... so that is pretty strong.

Actually, it makes sense that you can't re-roll your opponents DtW. In the same way that unless the Psyker is targeted by a psychic power, you can't use their bonuses to DtW. Unless you are trying to DtW on your own powers :S

JakeSiren wrote:

Caedes wrote:
Considering the soulburst rule directly inidicates what happens if you charge during the fight sub phase:
1: that it happens at end of current initiative step (so you wipe the enemy and trigger on init step 5, soulburst occurs at the end of step 5 and resumes the resulting (if applicable charge+fight at step 4)
It actually tells you when the soulburst happens and how to handle subsequent charges / new combats. And the RAI is to stop a high initiative unit charging, wiping a unit out, then recharging a new one and doing it again in the same turn.

Even back in 3rd all you could do was conosolodate into the next, locking the unit. Next turn no charge bonus and no "extra fighting" - they got rid of that (for the better I believe) and even though this gets back into that territory - allowing a full fresh fight to occur and models to essentially attack twice - that would be game breaking.

Except that you are considered locked in combat until you have consolidated. At which point it is too late to Soulburst with the unit that was in the combat. I suggest you re-read the thread as to the reasons why.

Caedes wrote:
Totally unrelated - but wow. I just noticed that farseer runes thing.

"Once per psychic phase, a model with this special rule can reroll any number of dice used in a single deny the witch or psychic test..."

So that enemy caster making nasty spell ... reroll his sucsesses. (Not his fails)... damn. And every psychic phase means each players phase... so that is pretty strong.

Actually, it makes sense that you can't re-roll your opponents DtW. In the same way that unless the Psyker is targeted by a psychic power, you can't use their bonuses to DtW. Unless you are trying to DtW on your own powers :S

Read the rules for the Farseer runes.

It's not about making sense, it's about what's written.

Farseers can reroll any DtW and any cast dice.

They can even make you peril on purpose.

No.

You can only use modifications or effects if you can choose a model in your army to do it. The specific point where it states that a model with the rule can reroll. Trying to deny a blessing doesn´t allow you to select a model to deny with. Therefore they can´t re-roll anything.

You can´t reroll your opponents dice and this doesn´t allow you to make your opponent re-roll theirs.

 rawne2510 wrote:
No.

You can only use modifications or effects if you can choose a model in your army to do it. The specific point where it states that a model with the rule can reroll. Trying to deny a blessing doesn´t allow you to select a model to deny with. Therefore they can´t re-roll anything.

You can´t reroll your opponents dice and this doesn´t allow you to make your opponent re-roll theirs.

And that is your opinion, thanks for sharing.

All the while, the book contains very precise rules which are undeniably stating what I explained in detail:

Runes of the Farseer: Once in each Psychic phase, a model with this special rule can re-roll any number of dice used in a single Deny the Witch test or Psychic test (potentially negating Perils of the Warp in the process).

The model can re-roll any number of dice that were used in a single test.

Nothing limits this to the Farseer's own tests, that's just an assumption many people made.

Craftworlds FAQ
Q: Does the Runes of the Farseer special rule allow Deny the
Witch even when the Farseer is not directly targeted or in range?
A: No.

When making a deny the witch roll on a blessing you do not pick a model to roll.

The rule does not let you reroll your opponents dice. You are not given permission to do that in that rule anywhere. If it does can you please provide proof. The reference written by Caedes doesn´t allow it

I totally missed that FAQ, thanks rawne.

It doesn't respect the word of the original rule, but then it's a FAQ so that's the whole idea

Also - I didn't mean to detail the thread with the farseer thing. More of just a "wow I didn't notice that before"

Let's stay on topic please.


Reading the gathering storm book II now. As I have been - and it seems pretty straight forward. A unit dies, it triggers a soulburst which interrupts or pauses the main sequence, once the soulburst resolves the main sequence resumes where it left off. Much like pausing a michael bay movie to go vomit, then come back and resume the movie.

Things like consolidate etc whatever are all done as normal. And based on the fact that the strength from death rule has 2 whole paragraphs and majority of its text to what happens when it's triggered in an assault - this is not a case of gw "missing" or not getting something. Seems pretty intentional and anyone trying to argue otherwise is imho being either overly literal and legalistic, hating on the new eldar 3 cheese pizza special or both.

(I will agree that the eldar definitely got lots of love and extra no charge toppings for the pie when they already had one of the best pies in the window. Maybe orcs and nids will get a piece with book 4?)

Let me mess with you a bit here:

Yvraine and the Visarch are in a unit together (just those two). A unit of 5 marines wants to shoot them, 1 with a missile launcher and 4 with bolters. The missile launcher shoots, and kills the Visarch. Now that he's dead and he's a unit, Yvraine can charge as she gets a Soulburst by being within 7" of a dead unit.

Can Yvraine now charge the marines and lock them in combat before they've got to fire their bolters, just because of the "choose a weapon that has yet to fire this turn" rules from the shooting rules in the BRB?

Warhanna wrote:
Let me mess with you a bit here:

Yvraine and the Visarch are in a unit together (just those two). A unit of 5 marines wants to shoot them, 1 with a missile launcher and 4 with bolters. The missile launcher shoots, and kills the Visarch. Now that he's dead and he's a unit, Yvraine can charge as she gets a Soulburst by being within 7" of a dead unit.

Can Yvraine now charge the marines and lock them in combat before they've got to fire their bolters, just because of the "choose a weapon that has yet to fire this turn" rules from the shooting rules in the BRB?

You roll all to hits from 1 unit at the same time, then you roll all the to wounds at the same time, you keep the weapon profiles and wound pools separate, not at different time tho.

So no.

Edit: IDK how it would work with split fire, I would think you get a soulburst action sense it says resolve this shooting attack then make the shooting attacks with the rest of the unit.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Warhanna wrote:
Let me mess with you a bit here:

Yvraine and the Visarch are in a unit together (just those two). A unit of 5 marines wants to shoot them, 1 with a missile launcher and 4 with bolters. The missile launcher shoots, and kills the Visarch. Now that he's dead and he's a unit, Yvraine can charge as she gets a Soulburst by being within 7" of a dead unit.

Can Yvraine now charge the marines and lock them in combat before they've got to fire their bolters, just because of the "choose a weapon that has yet to fire this turn" rules from the shooting rules in the BRB?

You roll all to hits from 1 unit at the same time, then you roll all the to wounds at the same time, you keep the weapon profiles and wound pools separate, not at different time tho.

So no.

Edit: IDK how it would work with split fire, I would think you get a soulburst action sense it says resolve this shooting attack then make the shooting attacks with the rest of the unit.

Incorrect. You roll to hit - to wound - resolve damage before moving to the next weapon. So yes I would suggest that soulburst would activate and they just get to overwatch. If you fail the charge they then get to continue to shoot as normal.

 rawne2510 wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Warhanna wrote:
Let me mess with you a bit here:

Yvraine and the Visarch are in a unit together (just those two). A unit of 5 marines wants to shoot them, 1 with a missile launcher and 4 with bolters. The missile launcher shoots, and kills the Visarch. Now that he's dead and he's a unit, Yvraine can charge as she gets a Soulburst by being within 7" of a dead unit.

Can Yvraine now charge the marines and lock them in combat before they've got to fire their bolters, just because of the "choose a weapon that has yet to fire this turn" rules from the shooting rules in the BRB?

You roll all to hits from 1 unit at the same time, then you roll all the to wounds at the same time, you keep the weapon profiles and wound pools separate, not at different time tho.

So no.

Edit: IDK how it would work with split fire, I would think you get a soulburst action sense it says resolve this shooting attack then make the shooting attacks with the rest of the unit.

Incorrect. You roll to hit - to wound - resolve damage before moving to the next weapon. So yes I would suggest that soulburst would activate and they just get to overwatch. If you fail the charge they then get to continue to shoot as normal.

I stand corrected.

We had an example of two IC, were if one of them died the other was able to do a soulburst action.
Would a normal unit also be able to use a soulburst action when an IC who had joined that unit dies?

I tried out a couple of games with the Ynnari rules and noticed that a Farseer on jetbike attached to a windrider squad was very difficult to kill with the soulburst ruling. As soon as his jetbike bodyguards died, he could immediately turbo boost 36" away and then hide and join another unit next turn. Repeat until all units are dead. The only way to catch him was in close combat or excessive shooting resolution.

Wraith2121 wrote:
I tried out a couple of games with the Ynnari rules and noticed that a Farseer on jetbike attached to a windrider squad was very difficult to kill with the soulburst ruling. As soon as his jetbike bodyguards died, he could immediately turbo boost 36" away and then hide and join another unit next turn. Repeat until all units are dead. The only way to catch him was in close combat or excessive shooting resolution.

That is actually pretty smart. But it is the opposite of what I sought to do, my idea was having a cheap IC character in an big unit windriders on the front, who then could be shot to death. Allowing the unit of windriders to turboboost far into enemy lines where they could target the rears of vehicles and threaten the enemy backline as a whole.
But I guess that if it works for a joined IC, then it should also work the other way around.

Accepting the fact that they could get charged as well. But are there really any cheap HQ choices that you can use and waste a HQ slot.

So adding to the discussion with another few questions:

1: if a unit is joined by some independent characters, and the base unit is wiped out, leaving the characters - does that qualify as a unit being wiped out and trigger a soulburst?

2: if a Aeldari unit with a psyker wipes out another enemy unit during the psychic phase and uses that to soulburst, and charge (successfully) I'm assuming that locks the unit in combat and ends the psychic phase (except for blessings/maels?)

3: for the Aeldari special characters - they all have a special rule "when a Aeldari model is removed they roll a dice and on x+ they regain wound etc" - when does this happen? Example: a unit of marines shoots my Aeldari unit, they have bolters, a plasma gun, and a multi melta. The marine player rolls his hits and wounds going: bolters, plasma, multi - if I start at full health and lose 2 to bolter fire, then 1 to plasma and finally take one on the Aeldari character, can that character then try to recover his wounds from his other Aeldari squad mates dying from the other shots? (I'm assuming all ranged fire happens at same time?)

Caedes wrote:
So adding to the discussion with another few questions:

1: if a unit is joined by some independent characters, and the base unit is wiped out, leaving the characters - does that qualify as a unit being wiped out and trigger a soulburst?
A: yes, an IC counts as a different unit then the one it joined

2: if a Aeldari unit with a psyker wipes out another enemy unit during the psychic phase and uses that to soulburst, and charge (successfully) I'm assuming that locks the unit in combat and ends the psychic phase (except for blessings/maels?)
A: yes, you would no longer be able to use psycic powers that you otherwise could have used outside of combat

3: for the Aeldari special characters - they all have a special rule "when a Aeldari model is removed they roll a dice and on x+ they regain wound etc" - when does this happen? Example: a unit of marines shoots my Aeldari unit, they have bolters, a plasma gun, and a multi melta. The marine player rolls his hits and wounds going: bolters, plasma, multi - if I start at full health and lose 2 to bolter fire, then 1 to plasma and finally take one on the Aeldari character, can that character then try to recover his wounds from his other Aeldari squad mates dying from the other shots? (I'm assuming all ranged fire happens at same time?)
A: All ranged weapons that belong to the same system shoot at the same time. So first would be the bolter systems then the plasma and after that the multi melta system. Which means that if the unit this character would have been in, died after the plasma shot. You would be allowed to use your soulburst action before the mulit melta gets to fire. See the Shooting Sequence in the BRB.

A big thing to remember is that the BRB specifically states that special rules trump general rules when they come in conflict. Soulburst details what happens when you get to charge after combat thereore stating you can do it. This makes the normal turn order, rules and limitations obsolete until an FAQ states it doesn't.

As to that the farseer question is weird. it says "does it allow deny the witch?" and that refers more to getting the bonus of psyker/higher level to the roll rather then the rerolling.

GW everyone: when they clean up they create more mess.

Edit; ignore what I said about soulburst explanation in a later post.

Caedes wrote:1: if a unit is joined by some independent characters, and the base unit is wiped out, leaving the characters - does that qualify as a unit being wiped out and trigger a soulburst?

Arlen wrote:A: yes, an IC counts as a different unit then the one it joined

This is being debated in this thread.

My view is that the unit does not count as completely destroyed that turn. The following turn the IC becomes a unit of one and I think we could retrospectively say the unit was wiped out the previous turn, but it is too late by then to trigger Strength from Death.

Upon rereading both the soulburst and the locked in combat rule I have changed my mind on the subject.

soulburst says that a unit locked in combat cannot make a soulburst action. It also says that happens at the exact moment the unit is wiped out= at the specific initiative step.

The combat rules say you are locked in combat until, there are no enemy models in base contact at the end of the phase, in this case the fight subphase of the assault phase. Pile in and consolidate happen during this subphase.

My conclusion wich seems to be the general one in the thread: A unit cannot make a soulburst action if it wipes out an enemy in CC. Only nearby units that were not in combat. Also if another unit does this to charge they don't make attacks if their initiative step is already past.

Fun fact: witches not having grenades works to their benefit since they can still strike if soulbursting in at I4. Very DE tactic there really.

And oh Boy are going to need the BRB at hand when playing the ynnari. I like the idea of more reactivity in the game but it really isn't designed for it (yet).

Edit: language

Don't Wyches have Plasma Grenades?

No. It's one of the biggest problems they have.

I think wyches in this case charge into a new combat that is resolved separately from the start. It does not transfer the initiative of the combat fought onto the one with wyches, unless its he one big combat.

Earth127 wrote:
No. It's one of the biggest problems they have.

Odd because I'm looking at my brand new Dark Eldar codex right now, and on page 79 under Wargear it clearly says "Plasma Grenades".

Incubi lack the grenades, wyches have them.

Wyches biggest problem is overwatch. They just die before they get into combat.



But the original one, Incubi benefitting from not having a grenade is true.

It's not like the old version of wyches getting the 4+ dodge save when in melee, that would have been great against overwatch. They should either get that rule back or just a rule that keeps them from being affected by overwatch.