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Sorry if this is already dealt with, my initial smartphone search couldn't find anything

For the new Aeldari rules, they get a soulburst action when units die within range. It says a unit can only make one per turn.
So:
1: once per turn I assume means player turn? So example: my turn one, I shoot a unit with unit A, destroying it. Unit B is close by, and aoulbursts to move closer to another target. I then charge that unit, but don't kill it. Now it's his turn. When we reach combat, my unit B wipes him out. Can they then soulburst again to charge a nearby unit?

2: one of the new psychic powers makes a target unit immediatly perform a soulburst. Does this count as their "one per turn"? So would that disallow targeting a unit with the power if they have already done a soulburst?, or if they benefit from the power they can't soulburst from something else?

You might wanna change the title of the thread. There is no such thing as a "simple" question about Soulburst. Just kidding

But to answer your questions, Yes & Yes.
Soulburst is once per turn, so once in your turn, once in you opponents turn. If you used the Psychic power to Soulburst, that is the unit's Soulburst for the turn.

Keep in mind that Soulburst lets you charge again, but not resolve attacks twice. This might even be irrelevant as a unit that is locked in combat may not Soulburst anyway and there is some debate as to when a unit is "unlocked" from combat. Is it once they wipe a unit, or at the end of the Assault phase?

The soulburst rules say that if the triggering event happens in fight subphase - the soulburst action happens end of that initiate step. So if I charge a unit and wipe it out at init step 7, at the end of that init step 7, before 6, I can soulburst, potentially charging another unit, then progesing that fight at step 6. (Really handy when charging units in cover. Wipe them out at step 1, then charge and start the next fight at 0, so the other guy can't hit you >

Makes sense about the psychic power not giving a second one. That would be crazy!

Caedes wrote:
The soulburst rules say that if the triggering event happens in fight subphase - the soulburst action happens end of that initiate step. So if I charge a unit and wipe it out at init step 7, at the end of that init step 7, before 6, I can soulburst, potentially charging another unit, then progesing that fight at step 6. (Really handy when charging units in cover. Wipe them out at step 1, then charge and start the next fight at 0, so the other guy can't hit you >

Makes sense about the psychic power not giving a second one. That would be crazy!

I believe that people are seriously misunderstanding the 'end of Initiative step' rule. There is only one instance where it would be relevant: If a unit uses its Soulburst action to charge into a combat that is partway through resolution. Even if you could wipe a unit, then charge another one, (you can't because you're locked until the end of the Phase) there is no rule that says that the Initiative step carries over from one combat to another.

I think it's pretty simple. Here's my thoughts on he process:

Let's say I have the visarch with 5 wraithblades. I charge a unit of 10 tau fire warriors. Assuming I make the charge, no other soulburst for that unit this turn, unit is not in cover, and no overwatch casualties:
First to act is the visarch at init 7. He gets 5 attacks plus whatever for rampage, etc. he kills 4.
The wraithblades go next At init 4 and wipe the remainder of the tau unit.
At the end of step 4 soulburst triggers. The unit is no longer in combat because the enemy is dead. I can charge the nearby broadside. That charge works, and the fight continues at init step 3, so my guys can't fight, but the broadside at init 2 can. Once his attacks are done, combat ends and game progresses as normal.

I think the bigger confusion is when a Aeldari unit is getting shot up, and it has characters. Since those characters are "a seperate unit" if they die does that trigger it? And do you resolve wounds/saves before making the soulburst action, if you do immediatly, can that unit then move into cover and now claim a cover save against the shots, OR return fire and potentially kill the attacking unit...

OP's questions are really easy, considering Soulburst is a mess.

I'm also with the first answer: Yes and yes.


My biggest problem is with going to the end of a close combat phase, resolving it at the end, and killing the unit with sweeping advance (which is highly possible with all the leadership effects and high initiative).
If I kill the enemy unit with sweeping advance, and use Soulburst to charge into another unit, does it go on:

A) After Init 1 - nothing happens, we are just locked in combat
B) After the last Init step of the wiped unit
C) Init 10 - a whole new fight sub-phase

I'm thinking it's C, because the fight sub-phase finished the "Fight Close Combat" part with the Initiative's, and went into the "Determine Assault Results" part which covers sweeping advance and consolidation.



As for charging into another, ongoing fight to skip some initiative steps, that is unfair play, but confirms to RAW.

Tyrpak wrote:

As for charging into another, ongoing fight to skip some initiative steps, that is unfair play, but confirms to RAW.

It wouldn't quite be rules as written.
A unit cannot charge if locked in combat and you are locked in combat until the end of the phase.
Therefore a unit that killed a unit in CC couldn't use soutburst to charge. This would mean it is very unlikely you skip initiative steps as only an enengaged unit could charge from this.

Now other unengaged units could charge into an ongoing combat, but you would keep that combats initiative so just make sure the unit could attack.

And the best use of charging is if you throw 2 CC units up front fast via like a raider your opponent now has to choose which one to kill, then the other is safe as they then charge avoiding shooting.

Case A) : GW doesn't know it's rules, doesn't know that the unit is locked until the end of the phase.

Then you are right, and the unit cannot charge a second time. And a whole sentence of the rule doesn't make sense and shouldn't be in the codex.

Case B) : GW knows what they are doing, the units are unlocked the instant they kill the last modell of the enemy, and they can charge again.

Then the wording of their Stength from Death rule makes sense with close combat going on at the end of the Initiative step.


Besides rules lawyering, which case is more probable?

I think it's only the unit that charges from a soulburst in combat that "skips" steps. But not really. Since fights are supposed to be same time.

My unit A charges enemy unit 1. And my unit B charges enemy unit 2.

(Unit A has visarch and 5 wyches, unit B has an archon and 5 incubi, units 1 and 2 are 5 man marine tac squads)

So since it's impossible to resolve 2 separate fights at once, let's do the visarchs first.
At init 7, the visarch kills the enemy marines. They don't get to swing, and the wyches (init 6) have not gone yet. They soulburst to charge and join the combat with archon and friends.

Now that fight starts. The archon goes first, at init 7, and kills 3 marines. Now since the other units soulburst happened at end of 7, init 6 gets to go. (So that means the wyches) they fail to kill anything. The incubi go next at 5, wiping out the remaining marines. Unit B can now soulburst to move or charge (at end of init 5)

The reason the rule states the charge action happens at end of init step is to prevent models from attacking twice - even though they may be involved in separate and multiple combats. Pretty straight forward I think.

Caedes, I like your approach, please could you elaborate some special cases :

1.) You charge something that is not space marine (don't have ATSKNF), and only kill it at combat resolution, with sweeping advance. You fire up your soulburst and charge a new unit that is not in combat with anybody. They shoot overwatch, as soulburst says, and you go on with the fight sub-phase...

But at which Initiative step?

A) I10
B) After I1, so nothing happens
C) After the last I that happened in the last fight.

2.) Your B Unit from your example fail their charge. A Unit charges. There is no overwatch, because they already fired on B Unit. A Unit gets in close combat and go on with I6.

Right or wrong?

Thanks

So if you make it to init step 0 and win through combat res, they fail you chase and wipe them out, i would assume its init step 0. So you charge the new unit, they overwatch (if they can) then you lock up and that's it. Next turn, combat as normal but no one counts as charging.

However if your over run allows another unit that has not fought to make a soulburst, then they could charge and start the fight process from init 10, since they haven't had a combat sub phase yet.

For question 2 - yea. Unit 2 already fired overwatch so they can't a second time. But say unit B was a good ways off (had long odds to make it and the unit 2 player gambles and doesn't shoot overwatch) then unit 2 could overwatch into unit A when it charges them. (Because they aren't in combat and haven't overwaycjed yet.)

Tyrpak I'm pretty sure it would never be option B after a sweeping advance, you would have already checked if there was anyone at each initiative step down to 1 and skipped them.
Personally I think it is I10 and it is just bad wording, units would only strike at current initiative if they charged into the combat you are currently resolving after a unit is killed by attacks.

Tyrpak wrote:
Case A) : GW doesn't know it's rules, doesn't know that the unit is locked until the end of the phase.

Then you are right, and the unit cannot charge a second time. And a whole sentence of the rule doesn't make sense and shouldn't be in the codex.

Case B) : GW knows what they are doing, the units are unlocked the instant they kill the last modell of the enemy, and they can charge again.

Then the wording of their Stength from Death rule makes sense with close combat going on at the end of the Initiative step.


Besides rules lawyering, which case is more probable?

Actually option A makes sense and is perfectly consistent with the rules. The reason the line about initiative is in there is if you have a combat with multiple enemy units and charge the Soulbursting unit into the ongoing combat. It makes it clear that the soulbursting unit doesn't get their higher initiative attacks.

If they soul burst into to an unrelated combat then that is resolved as normal after the current combat is resolved.

just got the book and trying to soak it up

a quick query, could you force vehicle to soulburst with the revenant powers

i know that 'triggered' strength from death rule excludes vehicles from soulbursting but the powers just state 'take a soulburst'

You are only consider Locked in combat if you are in base with other players models.

Pg 47 "If a unit has one or more models in contact with an enemy model (for any reason), then it is locked in combat"

Why are we arguing this? Right there you are only in combat if you are in base with an enemy model....

You killed the unit you are no longer in base, so therefor you can make soulburst actions.

The Int step part from RAW (How I read it and not RAI) you kill a unit at I6 step, if you make a 2nd charge you now start that 2nd combat at I5.

I'm going to play Harlequins with 4 Embraces (D3 S6 HoW AP-) if I killed that unit I then can charge another unit fighting at I9 as an example.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
You are only consider Locked in combat if you are in base with other players models.

Pg 47 "If a unit has one or more models in contact with an enemy model (for any reason), then it is locked in combat"

Why are we arguing this? Right there you are only in combat if you are in base with an enemy model....

You killed the unit you are no longer in base, so therefor you can make soulburst actions.

The Int step part from RAW (How I read it and not RAI) you kill a unit at I6 step, if you make a 2nd charge you now start that 2nd combat at I5.

I'm going to play Harlequins with 4 Embraces (D3 S6 HoW AP-) if I killed that unit I then can charge another unit fighting at I9 as an example.

The reason is the very next sentence,

Units are no longer locked in combat if, at end of any phase, they no longer have any models in base contact with an enemy model

Fragile wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
You are only consider Locked in combat if you are in base with other players models.

Pg 47 "If a unit has one or more models in contact with an enemy model (for any reason), then it is locked in combat"

Why are we arguing this? Right there you are only in combat if you are in base with an enemy model....

You killed the unit you are no longer in base, so therefor you can make soulburst actions.

The Int step part from RAW (How I read it and not RAI) you kill a unit at I6 step, if you make a 2nd charge you now start that 2nd combat at I5.

I'm going to play Harlequins with 4 Embraces (D3 S6 HoW AP-) if I killed that unit I then can charge another unit fighting at I9 as an example.

The reason is the very next sentence,

Units are no longer locked in combat if, at end of any phase, they no longer have any models in base contact with an enemy model

I understand now, but there are 2 parts that are saying when it is in and not in.

I still say RAW (not RAI) still argue in "when a unit is in base its in combat" if you are no longer in base you no longer are in combat, that was the 1st stipulations on rules if the 1st rule doesnt apply then neither does the others... tho i also am thinking more like a programmer than english b.c english isnt my strong suit.

I agree that the RAI is probably what your arguing. Its much like the old sweeping advances. I expect that a FAQ will come out sooner or later for this, but the RAW is that a unit is locked until the end of the phase.

So Soul Burst states that when an enemy unit is completely destroyed within 7" of one or more non-vehicle units...pick one unit to make a soul burst action. It doesn't state that you do this immediately, accordingly there is no reason for you not to complete other steps (such as consolidation).

Page 47 of the BRB stated that a unit in base to base contact with an enemy model, until the end of the phase however; page 54 under consolidation states that if an enemy unit is destroyed or with the combined consolidation moves cannot be brought back into base to base then "it is no longer locked in combat".

If a unit wipes out an enemy unit in the assault phase, completes the consolidation step as required under the assault phase and is therefore deemed not to be locked in combat by the expressed wording, it seems you can grant the unit a soul burst action to assault again.

The soulburst action must be conducted immediately once selected, but there doesn't appear an imperative to abandon steps to chose the unit to complete a soulburst action thereby depriving a unit of consolidation as appropriate.

I posted this https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/717991.page#9210603

But will show you too

age 53: Consolidation "if a unit's opponents are all either destroyed or falling back, or the end of combat pile in move was insufficient so that it is no longer "locked in combat", that unit my consolidate.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Page 53: Consolidation "if a unit's opponents are all either destroyed or falling back, or the end of combat pile in move was insufficient so that it is no longer "locked in combat", that unit my consolidate.

Going back to page 47 : Locked in Combat "If a unit had one or more models in base contact with an enemy unit, then it is locked in combat"

Now reading the "assault phase"
1. choose a combat
2. fight close combat
3. determine assault results
4. choose next combat or finish assault phase

If you look at it all, you dont finish assault phase until all combats has been resulted and you no longer can choose another combat.

B.c you Determine assault results before the phase is over, after you determine assault result you consolidate, consolidate says you are no longer locked in combat.

So all I am 100% sure the rules are saying you CAN make 2 charges a turn.

DeSheja wrote:
So Soul Burst states that when an enemy unit is completely destroyed within 7" of one or more non-vehicle units...pick one unit to make a soul burst action. It doesn't state that you do this immediately, accordingly there is no reason for you not to complete other steps (such as consolidation).

Ok, if soulburst doesn't occur immediately after a unit is destroyed, please tell me how you resolve "A unit that resolves a charge in the fight sub-phase does so at the end of the current initiative step"?

I think that the soulburst triggers after that fight sub-phase in all cases, and that you never get a second fight sub-phase.

Or you always get a second fight sub-phase, starting at I10 with HoW.

Anything in between has no rules support.

I think this is sequencing issue more than anything else.

Eg. In movement phase vehicle "x" tank shocks enemy unit "y". If an enemy unit is reached it must take a morale check. If the unit is already falling back, it automatically fails. If that unit runs off the table, do you stop moving your model in order to execute a Soulburst action from "strength from death", or do you finish moving vehicle "x" and remove the models from unit "y" before resolving the soulburst action or do you finalise the steps from tank shock? As there no imperative with the word immediately, either you either finalise the current actions before beginning a new one or the controlling player chose's the order of events where they co-exist.

In the same vein I suggest the same applies for assault sub-fight being:-

If a unit is currently locked in combat it is not able to soulburst per page 47, being defined as a unit locked in close combat.

A combat takes place, wherein after the results of the combat either in a unit being wiped out or the combined pile in moves being unable to bring the combatants into base to base contact, then the unit/s make a consolidation move as detailed on page 53 which then states they are no longer locked in combat at which point they can be affected by soul burst.

I agree with the earlier poster, Jake Siren, that the reference to initiative step would only reference to a multi-unit combat, in which unit "a" is engaged with units "b" and "c", unit "a" wipes out unit "b" after direct all the attacks towards said unit, granting a Soulburst action to a nearby squad allowing them to charge into the combat. The combat would continue to take place at the initiative step rather than going back to earlier stages which would allow units in *that* to launch multiple attacks within the same combat.

A curiosity in these rules i find revolves around independent characters, on pg 166 IC are classed as being part of the unit for all rule purposes, to the extent that if the unit is wiped out then he resumes being a unit of one model in the following phase which makes me wonder - when is the unit wiped out? Is it in the phase the last model of the unit removed other than the IC or the next phase effectively granting a Soulburst action at the commencement of the next phase (potentially in the enemy's movement phase)!

DeSheja wrote:
I think this is sequencing issue more than anything else.

Eg. In movement phase vehicle "x" tank shocks enemy unit "y". If an enemy unit is reached it must take a morale check. If the unit is already falling back, it automatically fails. If that unit runs off the table, do you stop moving your model in order to execute a Soulburst action from "strength from death", or do you finish moving vehicle "x" and remove the models from unit "y" before resolving the soulburst action or do you finalise the steps from tank shock? As there no imperative with the word immediately, either you either finalise the current actions before beginning a new one or the controlling player chose's the order of events where they co-exist.

In the same vein I suggest the same applies for assault sub-fight being:-

If a unit is currently locked in combat it is not able to soulburst per page 47, being defined as a unit locked in close combat.

A combat takes place, wherein after the results of the combat either in a unit being wiped out or the combined pile in moves being unable to bring the combatants into base to base contact, then the unit/s make a consolidation move as detailed on page 53 which then states they are no longer locked in combat at which point they can be affected by soul burst.

I agree with the earlier poster, Jake Siren, that the reference to initiative step would only reference to a multi-unit combat, in which unit "a" is engaged with units "b" and "c", unit "a" wipes out unit "b" after direct all the attacks towards said unit, granting a Soulburst action to a nearby squad allowing them to charge into the combat. The combat would continue to take place at the initiative step rather than going back to earlier stages which would allow units in *that* to launch multiple attacks within the same combat.

A curiosity in these rules i find revolves around independent characters, on pg 166 IC are classed as being part of the unit for all rule purposes, to the extent that if the unit is wiped out then he resumes being a unit of one model in the following phase which makes me wonder - when is the unit wiped out? Is it in the phase the last model of the unit removed other than the IC or the next phase effectively granting a Soulburst action at the commencement of the next phase (potentially in the enemy's movement phase)!

One point I would like to add here with regards the the tank shock example is that you don´t get to soulburst if a unit is removed from play by running off the board.


To add to the combat problem I would like to take note that any single combat is not finished unit the unit has consolidated from combat. This would occur after the activation of soulburst which happens immediately after the unit dies. Therefore the unit that has wiped out its opponent may not soulburst as it still has an action to complete. However after completing its consolidation I would agree that it is then able to soulburst if another unit is destroyed nearby later during the assault phase. So it would be able to charge for a second time during that phase and start the subfight phase from the beginning because each fight is considered a completely seperate unless the unit is charging into an enemy that has just killed its opponents because the charge occurs before the consolidation and therefore that fight has completed, which also means the unit wouldn´t be able to overwatch.

Pg 57 "If any model from a unit that is Falling back moves into contact with a table edge, the entire unit is removed from the game as casualties, as it scatters and flees the battle."

Soulburst "Whenever a unit is completely destroyed within 7"..." I would suggest these would be the same as the unit is destroyed. You could try making an argument re: removed from play v removes as casualty but i would suggested they are in fact the same in this instance.

Insofar as the combat, the immediate condition is only once you select the unit to make use of the soul burst action and not when you need to make unit for the soulburst nomination.

Accordingly, if you destroy a unit, make your consolidation action, the chose the same unit you could make a further charge. This would be a sequencing argument.

If you agree that immediately isn't referenced until after you select the unit the only question is do you resolve the consolidation action in the combat before or after the nomination of the soulburst. This would be the 64 million dollar/pound question.

DeSheja wrote:
Pg 57 "If any model from a unit that is Falling back moves into contact with a table edge, the entire unit is removed from the game as casualties, as it scatters and flees the battle."

Soulburst "Whenever a unit is completely destroyed within 7"..." I would suggest these would be the same as the unit is destroyed. You could try making an argument re: removed from play v removes as casualty but i would suggested they are in fact the same in this instance.

Insofar as the combat, the immediate condition is only once you select the unit to make use of the soul burst action and not when you need to make unit for the soulburst nomination.

Accordingly, if you destroy a unit, make your consolidation action, the chose the same unit you could make a further charge. This would be a sequencing argument.

If you agree that immediately isn't referenced until after you select the unit the only question is do you resolve the consolidation action in the combat before or after the nomination of the soulburst. This would be the 64 million dollar/pound question.

That's correct... if it's removed as casualties, it's also completely destroyed.

I think that people try too hard to prevent anything non IoM-ish from being actually as good as the wording says.

It's like the common belief that farseer runes don't allow you to re-roll your opponent's dice when that's exactly what's written...

Fact of the matter is that the combat ends exactly when the enemy unit is destroyed, then you consolidate, then you soulburst.

Both soulburst and consolidate happen exactly after the enemy unit is destroyed in assault, and the controlling player chooses which one goes first.


There's no such thing either as continuing the same fight sub-phase across two combats or anything.

If you're in the assault phase and you get to make a second charge, you get a second overwatch and a second fight sub-phase.
If you're not in the assault phase, you just get a charge, overwatch and then you'd have to remember about the HoW for the next fight sub-phase.

DeSheja wrote:
Pg 57 "If any model from a unit that is Falling back moves into contact with a table edge, the entire unit is removed from the game as casualties, as it scatters and flees the battle."

Soulburst "Whenever a unit is completely destroyed within 7"..." I would suggest these would be the same as the unit is destroyed. You could try making an argument re: removed from play v removes as casualty but i would suggested they are in fact the same in this instance.

Insofar as the combat, the immediate condition is only once you select the unit to make use of the soul burst action and not when you need to make unit for the soulburst nomination.

Accordingly, if you destroy a unit, make your consolidation action, the chose the same unit you could make a further charge. This would be a sequencing argument.

If you agree that immediately isn't referenced until after you select the unit the only question is do you resolve the consolidation action in the combat before or after the nomination of the soulburst. This would be the 64 million dollar/pound question.

No what I mean is I am sure that that was one of the exceptions for a unit dying is that this method doesn´t activate soulburst. Not implying it doesn´t but I believe it is actually written in the rule.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
My point is until the complete combat phase is finished which includes consolidation then it would be possible to argue that a unit couldn´t over-watch because at that specific point they are ineligible. You might consider it a dick move but there are many dick moves available out there that occur.

Totally unrelated - but wow. I just noticed that farseer runes thing.

"Once per psychic phase, a model with this special rule can reroll any number of dice used in a single deny the witch or psychic test..."

So that enemy caster making nasty spell ... reroll his sucsesses. (Not his fails)... damn. And every psychic phase means each players phase... so that is pretty strong.

morgoth wrote:
I think that the soulburst triggers after that fight sub-phase in all cases, and that you never get a second fight sub-phase.

Or you always get a second fight sub-phase, starting at I10 with HoW.

Anything in between has no rules support.

I disagree with "all cases", as the example about killing one unit in a multiple combat while the second unit on that side lives, and a nearby unit can soulburst into the ongoing combat has shown.

Considering the soulburst rule directly inidicates what happens if you charge during the fight sub phase:
1: that it happens at end of current initiative step (so you wipe the enemy and trigger on init step 5, soulburst occurs at the end of step 5 and resumes the resulting (if applicable charge+fight at step 4)
It actually tells you when the soulburst happens and how to handle subsequent charges / new combats. And the RAI is to stop a high initiative unit charging, wiping a unit out, then recharging a new one and doing it again in the same turn.

Even back in 3rd all you could do was conosolodate into the next, locking the unit. Next turn no charge bonus and no "extra fighting" - they got rid of that (for the better I believe) and even though this gets back into that territory - allowing a full fresh fight to occur and models to essentially attack twice - that would be game breaking.