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Yes but D weapons also tend to cost considerably more then a lascannon. and then themselves are only a single target to get shot as opposed to the 9 lascannons which would be over a minimum of 3 targets

There is a balance to it, while not the most balanced.. (what is in this game anyway)

GodDamUser wrote:
Yes but D weapons also tend to cost considerably more then a lascannon. and then themselves are only a single target to get shot as opposed to the 9 lascannons which would be over a minimum of 3 targets

There is a balance to it, while not the most balanced.. (what is in this game anyway)

Vaul's wrath triple D 165
6 devs w/ 4 las 164

The artillery has 6 T7 3+ wounds, the devs have 6 T4 3+ wounds.

So outside of range, what do the devs have going for them?

Oh, and as you pointed out to match the firepower of the D cannons you need 9 lascannons, which costs 390 points. But wait, that was 9 lascannon hits I said, you actually need 14 lascannons to reliably take out a single leman russ in a turn.

Every time you win a game, set one of your models on fire. If you win a game without losing a single model, set yourself on fire. Guaranteed popcorn worthy endgame for your opponent!

 kingbobbito wrote:

GodDamUser wrote:
Yes but D weapons also tend to cost considerably more then a lascannon. and then themselves are only a single target to get shot as opposed to the 9 lascannons which would be over a minimum of 3 targets

There is a balance to it, while not the most balanced.. (what is in this game anyway)

Vaul's wrath triple D 165
6 devs w/ 4 las 164

The artillery has 6 T7 3+ wounds, the devs have 6 T4 3+ wounds.

So outside of range, what do the devs have going for them?

Oh, and as you pointed out to match the firepower of the D cannons you need 9 lascannons, which costs 390 points. But wait, that was 9 lascannon hits I said, you actually need 14 lascannons to reliably take out a single leman russ in a turn.

"Outside of range" 24" isn't a limitation at all on a unit that can't just not move and shoot, but can hardly move at all, and gets instantly deleted in any kind of melee (3 t3 sv5+ wounds)

What else have the devs got? ATSKNF and higher leadership, for one thing. Remember, if the guardian crew runs (3 wounds for a ld7 morale check) the guns are gone. They've also got 3 wounds that are T7 5+, and each time they lose one of those say to a precision shot or barrage weapon, they can't fire one of the guns because you need to have 1 crewman per gun minimum to fire. RAW, the guy modeled on the gun actually does not allow the gun to shoot, he's just part of the gun model.

Worth noting that the devs also get chapter tactics. But yeah, the big one is definitely range here, lasdevs can be deployed in the absolute corner of the board, outside of the range of most small arms and outside of melee threat. the D-cannons have to be deployed on your deployment line in the center of the board if they want to possibly get a shot (and that's only if the enemy is coming to them, otherwise they can't get one because they will never reach across the no-mans land.)

It is extremely easy to deny D-cannons a shot on something valuable. Mark out their range with pennies if you have to, if you're outside it, they can't do gak to you because they can't move and shoot you, they have to spend the whole turn repositioning. A leman russ should never get shot by one.

I get most greif for playing eldar when I use a lot of D weapons.

People complain about the hemlock wraith fighter (even though its 195 points and has no anti air protection)

People complain about the D cannons (even though in order to be shot by them you basically have to be asking for it with 24" range)

People complain about the wraithgard even though they are expensive and slow and low ranged.

The going theme here is people complain. When the cady crap they take (huge deathstars - OP MC - Superheavies) get annihilated by their counter. I say bring the D. Bring lots of D. Teach them a lesson. Maybe they will bring some infantry next game.

 Xenomancers wrote:

When the cady crap they take (huge deathstars - OP MC - Superheavies) get annihilated by their counter. I say bring the D. Bring lots of D. Teach them a lesson. Maybe they will bring some infantry next game.

So that you could bring scatbikes to annihilate their infantry and teach them a lesson!

 Xenomancers wrote:
. I say bring the D. Bring lots of D. Teach them a lesson. Maybe they will bring some infantry next game.

Because nothing counters D-Wraithknight stomps like massed infantry getting D3 potential SD templates put on them a turn by a unit they cannot possibly hurt.

And nothing counters D-scythes like massed infantry.

Wait, no, that's not quite right.

When your D is coming in blast and template form and is backed up by, wait for it, massed S6 shooting from units perpetually outside range of retaliation then infantry aren't going to matter for squat.

To the OP - you want to play Eldar without feeling like a tool?

Look at the LVO and other event reports. Don't bring those Eldar armies. And generally, you will be fine. You haven't got a weak codex in the slightest. Even your 'bad' units are bloody good compared to what others get. So respecting that make an army that is themed, make an army that is generally fun.

If you show up with the same cut and paste net-list of Bikeseers,Scatbikes, Hornets, Warp Hunters and Wraithknight then you will find your opponents growing bored and passing up games. Because really, no one likes playing the same god damn list multiple times. And seriously, Eldar have enough flexibility to make much more varied and successful lists.

You're not forced to take Bikeseers - you do so because they're the most points efficient - your other HQ choices are quite solid as well.
You're not forced to take Scatbikes - you do so because they are so underpointed it's not even funny. Your other troops choices are valid.
You're not forced to take Hornets or Warp Hunters either.
Or Wraithknights.

So perhaps, looking at other options beyond the standard GOTTA WIN HARD net list will lead to a better experience for both you and your opponent. Not every game you play should be GOTTA WIN HARD. There's no prize money on the table. There's no standings at risk. In the average casual game at a club or the average pick up game it's just two people wanting to have fun - perhaps having had a crap day at college or work or at home. No need to come in and piss all over them when there's nothing worth pissing for.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Lotta weird Eldar Apologism going on here.

Not to say that every bit of Eldar is OP, but on general the average Eldar codex has alotta tricks compared to some of the lower tiers (Orks mostly ).

That the Ork Codex is noncompetitive against 20 of the 27 or so armies in the game suggests the problem is with Orks, not with Tau, Eldar, Marines, Necrons, Chaos, etc.

 Asmodai wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Lotta weird Eldar Apologism going on here.

Not to say that every bit of Eldar is OP, but on general the average Eldar codex has alotta tricks compared to some of the lower tiers (Orks mostly ).

That the Ork Codex is noncompetitive against 20 of the 27 or so armies in the game suggests the problem is with Orks, not with Tau, Eldar, Marines, Necrons, Chaos, etc.

Nah, it suggests that GW have this bizarre design philosophy that's persisted since 3rd/4th ed.

You have the Holy Trinity - Eldar, SM, Tau.
You have the Either/Or- sometimes they're great, sometimes they're arse, all the time they're one trick ponies - Necron, Daemons, Tyranids
Then you have Those Dumped After An Edition Of Actually Being 'Good' - AM, Orks, CSM, Sisters, GKs.

And to be fair, it's almost always the same.

New edition comes out.

First few books are relatively tame and soft.

Then SM, Tau and Eldar come along, bugger the balance all up to hell.

Sometimes another army sneaks in just before or after this buggering of the balance.

Then the writers get slapped on the wrist and subsequent armies fall down a tier, but not as bad as the initial few that came out.

DarkStarSabre- you can add Crons to the top tier, they havent had a bad codex in years and have some very competitive builds.

To the OP- build the models you like and see what your opponents play. Sure there are some very competitive builds for eldar but there are some very competitive builds for other factions as well. Once you get to know the other folks, you'll have a better idea of what you can and can't bring without causing an issue.

sturguard wrote:
DarkStarSabre- you can add Crons to the top tier, they havent had a bad codex in years and have some very competitive builds.

Eh, their 3rd ed existence and much of 4th ed was mediocre. They really spiked up with 5th ed. So for that reason I stick them in the second tier over time - they've had 2 editions where they were utter arse and then suddenly spiralled out of control.

Tyranids on the other hand were wonderful through 3rd and 4th then gakpanned from 5th onwards.

Daemons go back and forth depending on the FotM gimmick rule and which Imperial unit comes out to completely counter it.

Vanilla marines have never been top of the pile until 6th/7th.

Martel732 wrote:
Vanilla marines have never been top of the pile until 6th/7th.

Except when Chapter Traits came in with 4th that was the origin of the Bikestar and then you look at 5th and realise that Chapter Tactics started there and that was basically Chaos 3.5 released after Chaos was gutted completely.

6th gave you Grav weapons.

7th gave you the Gladius.

Marines have always sat around the same spot and improved with every edition, unlike CSM who have stagnated with every edition and Orks who literally only peaked with late 4th/early 5th and then went back down the pan as the tail end of 6th.

the_scotsman wrote:

 kingbobbito wrote:

GodDamUser wrote:
Yes but D weapons also tend to cost considerably more then a lascannon. and then themselves are only a single target to get shot as opposed to the 9 lascannons which would be over a minimum of 3 targets

There is a balance to it, while not the most balanced.. (what is in this game anyway)

Vaul's wrath triple D 165
6 devs w/ 4 las 164

The artillery has 6 T7 3+ wounds, the devs have 6 T4 3+ wounds.

So outside of range, what do the devs have going for them?

Oh, and as you pointed out to match the firepower of the D cannons you need 9 lascannons, which costs 390 points. But wait, that was 9 lascannon hits I said, you actually need 14 lascannons to reliably take out a single leman russ in a turn.

"Outside of range" 24" isn't a limitation at all on a unit that can't just not move and shoot, but can hardly move at all, and gets instantly deleted in any kind of melee (3 t3 sv5+ wounds)

What else have the devs got? ATSKNF and higher leadership, for one thing. Remember, if the guardian crew runs (3 wounds for a ld7 morale check) the guns are gone. They've also got 3 wounds that are T7 5+, and each time they lose one of those say to a precision shot or barrage weapon, they can't fire one of the guns because you need to have 1 crewman per gun minimum to fire. RAW, the guy modeled on the gun actually does not allow the gun to shoot, he's just part of the gun model.

Worth noting that the devs also get chapter tactics. But yeah, the big one is definitely range here, lasdevs can be deployed in the absolute corner of the board, outside of the range of most small arms and outside of melee threat. the D-cannons have to be deployed on your deployment line in the center of the board if they want to possibly get a shot (and that's only if the enemy is coming to them, otherwise they can't get one because they will never reach across the no-mans land.)

It is extremely easy to deny D-cannons a shot on something valuable. Mark out their range with pennies if you have to, if you're outside it, they can't do gak to you because they can't move and shoot you, they have to spend the whole turn repositioning. A leman russ should never get shot by one.

Like I said, D cannons aren't as insane as some people think they are, just pointing out that a lascannon is a terrible comparison. Things like land raiders that do want to move up the center of the board liquefy when a D cannon gives them a stern glance, and my punishers too want to move up the board (to try and kill the scatbikes chilling out behind the D cannons). Dreadnoughts are notoriously pretty squishy, but I'd rather drop pod one next to a las dev squad than a single D cannon. Lascannons have their uses, but the fact that D just says "oh, your tank is gone 50% of the time" is a bit of a slap in the face in an edition where tanks are already kind of bad.

just be ready for TFG to say no matter what you bring that it is cheesy while they bring the most powerful netlist they can find... seriously, it will be the Necron Decurian and Gladius with attached Librarian conclave players saying your list with an Avatar is OP.

I have friends like this, one who brought a armored company this past week (basically all leman russes) str 8 ap3 pie plates ignoring cover on a 4+ (HQ being instant death) and because I brought 1 wraithknight alongside 2 fire prisms (one of our worst tanks) some dark reapers, a wraith seer, some dire avengers in wave serpants and 2 bike squads I am suddenly a power gamer

This could literally be boiled down to just being a good opponent. If you're in a group, know what your army can do, what other armies can do and the kinds of players your opponents are it is on you to make a fun game.

When I play my Eldar, post game, my opponent always says "that was a lot of fun, we should have a rematch." I don't spam Warpspiders, I don't spam Wraithknights, I often feed a few units for fun to my opponent to make sure they didn't get wiped out if things are too lopsided. They want to play too you know

It is just basic social gaming.

Play a CAD
Don't spam units
Don't run powerhouse formations.

It's pretty easy to play a rounded eldar list.

I've not really got to put my Sisters up against the Eldar, and I'll admit to taking some of the internet memes at face value. Since I enjoy losing, I do want to go 1v1 with my un-optimized Sisters against some Eldar . . . cheese.

I did look through the Eldar codex recently. It was interesting. Everything felt competitively costed (I aaaaalmost started a Howling Banshee themed force led by Jain Dar).

After reading the responses here, and trying to think about this without resorting to memes, I still think it's clear that most of the units in the Eldar codex are at least decent. So, you should be able to play what you want and have room to still play competitively. Plus you'll have a variety of units you can use, whereas I, if I want to have a shot at winning, will almost always add 2+ units of melta Dominions to my list right away.

The Eldar to me, look like a really interesting codex, and I think they should be very interesting to play against as long as you aren't getting curb stomped.

I agree if someone says it's impossible to bring a "non-cheesey" Eldar list they're being silly, but I'm not going to pretend I don't look at some of the units the Eldar have and shake my head.

Not sure if this is helpful in the slightest, since I don't play Eldar, but I wish you luck. They look like a lot of fun to play!

To the OP.

Honestly don't worry about it. You have to bare in mind that a vast majority of the people that play this game are lazy as hell and don't adapt their thinking or tactics. I could take an all ranger army and most of the community would still complain that eldar rangers are over powered. Reality is that the eldar dex has been out for awhile now and if you cant beat it you probably need to reassess your tactics because at this point I can do it with my eyes closed, imperial players especially have zero excuses.

Take what you want and find a group that will accept that. Playing buzz kills just hurts your hobby and your enjoyment of your free time.

What you allow is what will continue.

I got some mad hate for my ynari this friday.

I walk into my store, with the intention of finding a game, or entering a mini in the monthly painting comp.

I tell the manager, introduces me to a very kind sir name Nate and we agree on 1850 maelstrom, I say I'm playing my Ynari and pull out my mostly (nicely) painted and very friendly army.

He is playing tyranids, a very old school tyranid list, but it worked well and he knew how to play it well.

As we get the game going, another donkey cave continuously teases me for playing Eldar from another table. I don't really care, I assume he is being freindly. But when he sees the yncarne on my table (its a good unit, but its a stretch to call it cheese. It's only good if its played correctly) he starts talking about how much tyranids suck and how my army is 'no skill' (my Ynari list is focussed on Harlies, two units of harlies are the ones that do the heavy lifting in the list, without them I lose significant teeth).

I won, by a single point. The game went onto a grueling turn 7, and afterwards I made sure to compliment his generalship.

I still got rude comments until the donkey cave left.

Still love my Ynari though, and would love to destroy the guy with my Deathwatch.

I don't mind playing Eldar, i just gave my tournament opponent snarky comments after he said his Eldar was weak and then decimated my army with 20 dice re-roll-able attacks

so when I start to play in 8th edition.....should I have the 7th edition elder codex?

And as a 2nd / 3rd edition player.... I have old style wraithlords, reapers, some bikes, vypers, guardians, tons of dire avengers, seers walkers,and only 2nd edtion tanks.

I never liked to use warp spiders or expensive pieces(like wraithguard) much except for my harlequins.

I am not investing in the new tanks so what should I need or focus on gummyofallbears?

 gummyofallbears wrote:
I got some mad hate for my ynari this friday.

I walk into my store, with the intention of finding a game, or entering a mini in the monthly painting comp.

I tell the manager, introduces me to a very kind sir name Nate and we agree on 1850 maelstrom, I say I'm playing my Ynari and pull out my mostly (nicely) painted and very friendly army.

He is playing tyranids, a very old school tyranid list, but it worked well and he knew how to play it well.

As we get the game going, another donkey cave continuously teases me for playing Eldar from another table. I don't really care, I assume he is being freindly. But when he sees the yncarne on my table (its a good unit, but its a stretch to call it cheese. It's only good if its played correctly) he starts talking about how much tyranids suck and how my army is 'no skill' (my Ynari list is focussed on Harlies, two units of harlies are the ones that do the heavy lifting in the list, without them I lose significant teeth).

I won, by a single point. The game went onto a grueling turn 7, and afterwards I made sure to compliment his generalship.

I still got rude comments until the donkey cave left.

Still love my Ynari though, and would love to destroy the guy with my Deathwatch.

Yikes that sounds awful and relatable. I bet he thinks gladius strike force/skyhammer with grav and bike spam is fun and enjoyable and totally not in any way 'OP' like those stupid cheesy eldar. I find that to be the case most of the time.

A lot of eldar players have a pretty good understanding of how boring scatbike/wraithknight/warp spider lists are to fight and the others are only in it for the tournament play. Both are fine. Both are also not the same person. Not many people seem to get this apparently.

 admironheart wrote:
so when I start to play in 8th edition.....should I have the 7th edition elder codex?

And as a 2nd / 3rd edition player.... I have old style wraithlords, reapers, some bikes, vypers, guardians, tons of dire avengers, seers walkers,and only 2nd edtion tanks.

I never liked to use warp spiders or expensive pieces(like wraithguard) much except for my harlequins.

I am not investing in the new tanks so what should I need or focus on gummyofallbears?

I think dire avengers are the 'perfectly freindly' eldar unit, squishy on foot, expensive in a transport, hit like bricks and are very fast.

honestly the great majority of the eldar codex is strong, but very little is overpowered. Bikes with all heavy weapons, warp spiders, and wraithknights are stupid broken. Most other stuff is on varying levels of awesome, but its all awesome.

There is very little in your collection that is unfun to play against or weak in game.

 admironheart wrote:
so when I start to play in 8th edition.....should I have the 7th edition elder codex?

At this point, we're not sure how major the changes are going to be from 7th to 8th. It could completely negate all codexes (like the jump from WHFB8 to AoS), or it could just be changes / streamlining of the main rulebook, and the codexes will still function with possibly another round of errata. We're also not sure when (rumours suggest sometime in the next 6 months or so). I'd suggest trying to pick up a second-hand one if you're worried about wasting money.