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Over the coming spring and summer, I will be getting some opportunities to play 40k that I haven't really had since leaving school. I have been putting together some Eldar, and this is going to be my first real, honest-to-the-emperor, properly painted and lore-fleshed-out army. I will be looking to play rather small games (250 pts to 1000 pts), plus or minus friends as allies. And this leads me to a problem. I have not really had a chance to test out my Eldar above 500 points, and I will be investigating two gaming groups. I have no idea how my army will really play, and I am concerned that I will immediately be taken as a powergaming donkey-cave.

My question for you fine fellows is this, how can I play Eldar without ruining the experience for myself and the players around me?
Cheese will preferably be avoided, but I am concerned that anything I find to be effective in the Eldar codex will be labelled as such, and just piss people off.

Items of concern in my army:

-I would like to bring an Avatar of Khaine, but it's a Lord of War in a 1000-point game
-Due to issues relating to one of my friends having the ability to table me by turn 3 since I started gaming, I am looking at taking D-Cannon Vaul's Wrath batteries in my collection
-I have a Farseer on Jetbike (because elder trickery is funny)
-I have a unit of three jetbikes, because they came with the 'seer. They only have one shuriken cannon amongst them, but a Telepathy Farseer can use them to do almost anything.

Am I already a powergamer just for those?

EDIT: Link related: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/719475.page

No. You'll be fine. I find "Eldar cheese" vastly overstated.

General rule: Don't be a dick.

Secondary rule: If you're not sure if you're being a dick...you probably are.

It may take a few games, but find an army you're comfortable with which is strong but doesn't kick people off the table in half of a turn. That should be do-able. And, seriously, ask for your friends input (if they're idiots...then maybe don't do this). A good, mature friend will admit when something is "too much" or ruining the game, but won't put the kibosh on every army choice you make out of selfishness.

Tell people to stop listening to internet sobbing and not to let the anecdotes of total strangers influence what they actually see on the table.

There are few bad choices in the elder codex, but the ones you mention aren't bad.

Avatar is decent, but in the end, T6, 5W, 3+ 5++, basically a carnifex statline. Far from overpowered.

D-cannons are interesting. yes, they are true D, and barrage to boot, but are only 24" range, which is pretty poor for artillery. So, it's an artillery unit you have to get close to use.

I don't think they're OP, but definitely something to give some nasty units pause.

Jetbikes - it's rare to see eldar without jetbikes.

Overall, I wouldn't worry about it too much. Long as you don't show up first day with triple wraithknight, scatbike and warp spyder spam, it'll be fine.

Yes, eldar are OP, but I don't think people would shun you for just for showing up with any eldar army.

 Elbows wrote:
A good, mature friend will admit when something is "too much" or ruining the game, but won't put the kibosh on every army choice you make out of selfishness.

Eh.. I'm going to have trouble with that - I've been "called out" before for bringing *gasp* imperial guard. Admittedly, not with the gaming groups I'll be investigating, but I'm acutely aware of how easy it is for things to go that way.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kap'n Krump wrote:

Overall, I wouldn't worry about it too much. Long as you don't show up first day with triple wraithknight, scatbike and warp spyder spam, it'll be fine.

That'll be easy to do - I don't like the WK as a model, scatbikes are too expensive (in cashmoneys) and don't fit my theme very well, and I don't feel like painting spiders

Welcome to, and get used to, the "I've never played against this thing, and it killed my stuff, so it must be OP I can't have made a mistake my first time playing against it" effect.

People rage 500% more about any given Xenos faction/lesser seen faction than something that's common in the meta, even if it's strictly more powerful (Gladius/Skyhammer Marines).

This combines with "reputation rage" of people reading online or hearing that something or some faction is hideously broken, and as soon as it does practically anything in a game it confirms what they already thought without any justification.

Yes, the eldar codex contains a handful of the stronger unit combinations in 40k. Scatterlaser jetbikes, Wraithknights with sword or D-cannons, Scytheguard, and Warp Spiders are all potent, tournament quality units.


But I can't tell you how many times I've seen someone go "UUUUURGH eldarrrrrr" in response to something like a Dark Reaper ignoring jink saves, or a warlock having S9 on his singing spear.

People will gladly complain that "Necrons/Tau/Eldar have too many special ruuuuuuules its so unfair" but they're completely A-OK with a Space Marine librarian who has ATSKNF, his choice of 8 chapter tactics, 6 unique psychic disciplines nobody else has access to, 9 different decurion detachments he might be part of, 563 different formations he might be part of, and 17 relic lists across 5 supplement books and codexes he might choose his equipment from, because "Everyone knows Space Marine stuff!"

This is going to happen. You can't do anything beyond abstaining from a tournament level list and trying to construct what you bring to have roughly a 50% winrate against whatever you're playing against. Haters will hate on Eldar, Necrons, Tau, Tyranids, Dark Eldar, and Harlequins alike, because anything that's not the standard MEQ or usually Guard is weird and scary.

I've recieved nasty comments for playing Tau before, and my response was mostly "Look at my list". Regardless of what you play, people will always bitch. The objective is not to make them love Eldar, it's to shut them down quickly and just play against someone else.

Did a mini-trial of my Eldar last summer, by using some Dire Avengers in a Kill Team game against a Marine player who is very "5th Edition is best edition", and does not at all like tings that operate any differently to marines.

Managed to convince him through that game that, while Eldar rules are tricksy, they can (usually) still die like a bitch when they're not careful.

"People will gladly complain that "Necrons/Tau/Eldar have too many special ruuuuuuules its so unfair" but they're completely A-OK with a Space Marine librarian who has ATSKNF, his choice of 8 chapter tactics, 6 unique psychic disciplines nobody else has access to, 9 different decurion detachments he might be part of, 563 different formations he might be part of, and 17 relic lists across 5 supplement books and codexes he might choose his equipment from, because "Everyone knows Space Marine stuff!"

Said librarian means nothing when he's shot off the table turn 1 before he can do anything. There is no formation that saves them from Eldar firepower. (Gladius, I know)

Martel732 wrote:
"People will gladly complain that "Necrons/Tau/Eldar have too many special ruuuuuuules its so unfair" but they're completely A-OK with a Space Marine librarian who has ATSKNF, his choice of 8 chapter tactics, 6 unique psychic disciplines nobody else has access to, 9 different decurion detachments he might be part of, 563 different formations he might be part of, and 17 relic lists across 5 supplement books and codexes he might choose his equipment from, because "Everyone knows Space Marine stuff!"

Said librarian means nothing when he's shot off the table turn 1 before he can do anything. There is no formation that saves them from Eldar firepower. (Gladius, I know)

There it is, popping out of the woodwork to make my point for me.

Because remember kids: Every Eldar list consists SOLELY of long range shooting units with OP levels of firepower. The only units that exist are one troop unit equipped in one particular configuration, and one superheavy in one particular configuration (and what the heck, we'll pretend that the rest of the units can do that exact thing too despite most of the wargear in the codex having 12-24" range)

People will do this regardless of what you do. Let me tell you from experience, it does not matter if your army is a guardian stormhost buffed up by an avatar of khaine with a Striking Scorpion aspect host, people WILL complain about OP eldar firepower when the scatter laser on your vyper kills a tactical marine turn 1. They WILL complain about the broken special rules eldar get even when they win, and tbh, they'll probably do it more when you purposefully construct your list with a variety of units rather than the few everyone knows about because that means they'll be facing things they've never faced before. All you can do is pay attention to your own win/loss ratio, shoot for 50%, and ignore this stuff.

the_scotsman wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"People will gladly complain that "Necrons/Tau/Eldar have too many special ruuuuuuules its so unfair" but they're completely A-OK with a Space Marine librarian who has ATSKNF, his choice of 8 chapter tactics, 6 unique psychic disciplines nobody else has access to, 9 different decurion detachments he might be part of, 563 different formations he might be part of, and 17 relic lists across 5 supplement books and codexes he might choose his equipment from, because "Everyone knows Space Marine stuff!"

Said librarian means nothing when he's shot off the table turn 1 before he can do anything. There is no formation that saves them from Eldar firepower. (Gladius, I know)

There it is, popping out of the woodwork to make my point for me.

Because remember kids: Every Eldar list consists SOLELY of long range shooting units with OP levels of firepower. The only units that exist are one troop unit equipped in one particular configuration, and one superheavy in one particular configuration (and what the heck, we'll pretend that the rest of the units can do that exact thing too despite most of the wargear in the codex having 12-24" range)

People will do this regardless of what you do. Let me tell you from experience, it does not matter if your army is a guardian stormhost buffed up by an avatar of khaine with a Striking Scorpion aspect host, people WILL complain about OP eldar firepower when the scatter laser on your vyper kills a tactical marine turn 1. They WILL complain about the broken special rules eldar get even when they win, and tbh, they'll probably do it more when you purposefully construct your list with a variety of units rather than the few everyone knows about because that means they'll be facing things they've never faced before. All you can do is pay attention to your own win/loss ratio, shoot for 50%, and ignore this stuff.

But were you going to say 'make my point for me' to anybody who disagreed and use an example?

Martel732 wrote:
"People will gladly complain that "Necrons/Tau/Eldar have too many special ruuuuuuules its so unfair" but they're completely A-OK with a Space Marine librarian who has ATSKNF, his choice of 8 chapter tactics, 6 unique psychic disciplines nobody else has access to, 9 different decurion detachments he might be part of, 563 different formations he might be part of, and 17 relic lists across 5 supplement books and codexes he might choose his equipment from, because "Everyone knows Space Marine stuff!"

Said librarian means nothing when he's shot off the table turn 1 before he can do anything. There is no formation that saves them from Eldar firepower. (Gladius, I know)

There is something: don't get in range of it. Most eldar firepower (if you're not playing FW) is limited in range, it's their biggst disadvantage. Don't put your librarian in the first line of fire (and if you do you royally derve what is coming to you) and he should get his powers of at least once.

Also who runs 1 lonely vulnerable librarian with no alpha strike protection? That's asking for trouble even against DE, harlequins hell ORKS could propably kill that.

Martel732 wrote:
"People will gladly complain that "Necrons/Tau/Eldar have too many special ruuuuuuules its so unfair" but they're completely A-OK with a Space Marine librarian who has ATSKNF, his choice of 8 chapter tactics, 6 unique psychic disciplines nobody else has access to, 9 different decurion detachments he might be part of, 563 different formations he might be part of, and 17 relic lists across 5 supplement books and codexes he might choose his equipment from, because "Everyone knows Space Marine stuff!"

Said librarian means nothing when he's shot off the table turn 1 before he can do anything. There is no formation that saves them from Eldar firepower. (Gladius, I know)

No unit means anything turn when when shot off the board, and SM pod alpha strikes are notorious for erasing units.

36" range on a fast platform is limited?

I would think, as someone planning to build some Eldar soon (TM) myself: Don't go overboard.

For instance, 1 scatter laser or shuriken cannon is fine; you don't need every jetbike to have one (I've been told that going all in on shuriken cannons are fine, it's just the scatter lasers that are the problem). Maybe one-per-three as a guideline. Take Guardians or Dire Avengers or the lesser-used Aspects instead of spamming the Warp Spiders. If you take a Wraithknight, take 1 and only use it at higher points, don't abuse it.

Generally, if you build a fluffy list and don't go overboard, you won't run into the problems from people who aren't just out to call anything they lose to cheese.

Play what you want and just wait for other codices to become overpowered.

The thing you have to understand about PvP psychology is that, it doesn't matter what units you use. Your codex has a reputation for being overpowered, so even if you win using nothing but banshees, stormguardians and an avatar, cognitive dissonance is going to make them assume that those units are overpowered.

Most people who lose to Eldar, lose because they're either bad at the game or poor at list making. So just play what you want.

the_scotsman wrote:


People will gladly complain that "Necrons/Tau/Eldar have too many special ruuuuuuules its so unfair" but they're completely A-OK with a Space Marine librarian who has ATSKNF, his choice of 8 chapter tactics, 6 unique psychic disciplines nobody else has access to, 9 different decurion detachments he might be part of, 563 different formations he might be part of, and 17 relic lists across 5 supplement books and codexes he might choose his equipment from, because "Everyone knows Space Marine stuff!"

My urge to facepalm is rising.

Lotta weird Eldar Apologism going on here.

Not to say that every bit of Eldar is OP, but on general the average Eldar codex has alotta tricks compared to some of the lower tiers (Orks mostly ).

As a fellow Eldar player, you're gonna hear people moan no matter what you bring.

They'll whine about your HW platform in your Guardian squads, ignoring that you had to take Guardians to use it.

They'll whine about Bladestorm getting AP2 on 6s to wound. Even though most of your units with shuriken weapons will have a 12"-18" range and be paper tough.

You could bring ONLY the sub-optimal units in the codex (guardians or storm guardians, vypers, falcons, banshees, etc) and people will whine.

It's just the mentality against Eldar these days. They don't remember that there are a good chunk of us who played when Eldar were the finesse army that was hard to use well. They forget that codexes go through a cycle of power and it just happened to be our turn. They just want to whine that theirs isn't the top right now. Or is, if they play Gladius!

 Jathom wrote:
As a fellow Eldar player, you're gonna hear people moan no matter what you bring.

They'll whine about your HW platform in your Guardian squads, ignoring that you had to take Guardians to use it.

They'll whine about Bladestorm getting AP2 on 6s to wound. Even though most of your units with shuriken weapons will have a 12"-18" range and be paper tough.

You could bring ONLY the sub-optimal units in the codex (guardians or storm guardians, vypers, falcons, banshees, etc) and people will whine.

It's just the mentality against Eldar these days. They don't remember that there are a good chunk of us who played when Eldar were the finesse army that was hard to use well. They forget that codexes go through a cycle of power and it just happened to be our turn. They just want to whine that theirs isn't the top right now. Or is, if they play Gladius!

I hope this isn't true.

You don't even need to go 1 per 3. Just don't have 10 squads of 3 scatterbikes, 3 squads of warp spiders, and 2 WKs. Two squads of five scatterbikes is fine.

 Jathom wrote:
It's just the mentality against Eldar these days. They don't remember that there are a good chunk of us who played when Eldar were the finesse army that was hard to use well. They forget that codexes go through a cycle of power and it just happened to be our turn. They just want to whine that theirs isn't the top right now. Or is, if they play Gladius!

5th, 5th is the only edition that had lower tiered Eldar and that was because they weren't updated. Eldar have ALWAYS been a higher tier army otherwise once they've been updated.

Bring other troop choices besides jetbikes. I like the look of guardians and dire avengers, but rangers are cool too. If you want a jetbike army that's cool, just try to limit your scatter lasers, or bring shuriken cannons instead.

When using superheavies I make sure my opponent is bringing one or at least knows what superheavy I'm bringing.

Staying away from forgeworld helps a ton too. The second I see hornets I immediately know what kinda player that is, IE, not a casual one.

But that's just my 2 cents. The 3rd edition eldar codex was one of my first 40k books I ever got, so I've always been accustomed to the look of footdar with aspect warriors and some artillery. I play orks so I know the ork codex sucks, but that doesn't mean all eldar players shouldn't be able to enjoy themselves.

edit: overall I don't think its about taking less overpowered units, I think you should just build what models you think are cool, regardless of stats. That's why I play orks in the first place.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Marmatag wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:


People will gladly complain that "Necrons/Tau/Eldar have too many special ruuuuuuules its so unfair" but they're completely A-OK with a Space Marine librarian who has ATSKNF, his choice of 8 chapter tactics, 6 unique psychic disciplines nobody else has access to, 9 different decurion detachments he might be part of, 563 different formations he might be part of, and 17 relic lists across 5 supplement books and codexes he might choose his equipment from, because "Everyone knows Space Marine stuff!"

My urge to facepalm is rising.

I mean, according to tournaments Space Marines and Eldar are the top tier. Tau and Necrons are behind them. Kind of hard to deny how strong grav spam and bike deathstars are.

 Don Savik wrote:
Bring other troop choices besides jetbikes. I like the look of guardians and dire avengers, but rangers are cool too. If you want a jetbike army that's cool, just try to limit your scatter lasers, or bring shuriken cannons instead.

When using superheavies I make sure my opponent is bringing one or at least knows what superheavy I'm bringing.

Staying away from forgeworld helps a ton too. The second I see hornets I immediately know what kinda player that is, IE, not a casual one.

But that's just my 2 cents. The 3rd edition eldar codex was one of my first 40k books I ever got, so I've always been accustomed to the look of footdar with aspect warriors and some artillery. I play orks so I know the ork codex sucks, but that doesn't mean all eldar players shouldn't be able to enjoy themselves.

edit: overall I don't think its about taking less overpowered units, I think you should just build what models you think are cool, regardless of stats. That's why I play orks in the first place..

Certainly advice I can take to heart; I plan on getting two units of guardian defenders to go with my DA unit, and bringing my Avatar forces me to use footdar trickery to make him survive turns 1 and 2

Generally it is also depends on the group you play with.

 Selym wrote:
Cheese will preferably be avoided, but I am concerned that anything I find to be effective in the Eldar codex will be labelled as such, and just piss people off.

If you encounter someone who whines and kvetches about facing Eldar regardless of what's actually in your list, about the only thing you can do is play them and hope experience changes their mind. If they're really obstinate and don't want to play you, I think you're probably better off that way anyhow.

-I would like to bring an Avatar of Khaine, but it's a Lord of War in a 1000-point game

So is Gabriel Seth, I wouldn't put much emphasis on LoW status. The Avatar isn't terrible, but in an era of Destroyer and Grav spam he's pretty far removed from game breaking.

-Due to issues relating to one of my friends having the ability to table me by turn 3 since I started gaming, I am looking at taking D-Cannon Vaul's Wrath batteries in my collection

They are D weapons which some people might object to, but honestly they're more on the tame end of the Eldar D weapons. They're relatively vulnerable and not mobile or super long ranged. As long as you're not spamming a mess of them I wouldn't sweat it.

-I have a Farseer on Jetbike (because elder trickery is funny)
-I have a unit of three jetbikes, because they came with the 'seer. They only have one shuriken cannon amongst them, but a Telepathy Farseer can use them to do almost anything.

No one should object to a single Jetseer and single shuriken cannon. If they do they're just whining. If you're worried about the Farseer at all don't roll on Telepathy. Runes of Fate is far more all-around useful and doesn't have any single super-spell that people despise.

If there's one thing I've learned about 40k players in general you're going to get someone no matter where you go that complains about your army for some reason no matter what you bring or do. I've had people tell me that my guard are cheese! The only one I see even a scrap of argument against is the wyvern because it is insanely good for its cost, but I was told Pask (period) is cheese, the deathstrike is cheese, conscripts are cheese, demolitions on vets is cheese, priests are cheese, having my entire army in chimeras (which are not free like the gladius they compared it to) is cheese, yarrick is cheese...

I really don't get the immense hate for D weapons that some people have..

Really the majority of the time it is no more powerful then a lazcannon

GodDamUser wrote:
I really don't get the immense hate for D weapons that some people have..

Really the majority of the time it is no more powerful then a lazcannon

If you only shoot StrD at normal infantry sure

But against the right targets it massively destructive. Even the 2-5 result has a decent chance of one shooting most vehicles and 2-3 hits kill pretty much every MC in the game. A 6 one shots almost everything in the game including super heavies

GodDamUser wrote:
I really don't get the immense hate for D weapons that some people have..

Really the majority of the time it is no more powerful then a lazcannon

People often exaggerate D, but that's a very mild understatement. Lascannons are an anti-vehicle weapon, so we'll compare using those. Against AV 14 you have a 1 in 36 chance of deleting the vehicle (6 to pen and 6 to explode),or get 3 glances and non-explode pens that need a 5+ each shot. To reliably wreck a russ, for example, you need 9 lascannon hits.

A D weapon, on the other hand, has a 1 in 6 chance of outright deleting the tank (6 times more likely than a lascannon already) and ignores the cover save. It pens on a 2+, which on the table has another chance of an explodes result (1 in 6), and deals d3 HP, so a 1/3 chance of outright deletion there as well. In the end you wreck a russ about half the time that you hit, which is just a tad more than 1 in 36.

D may not be the kill-all-end-all that some think it is, but calling it a lascannon is not acceptable. D is the same as a lascannon against T4 or less models without an invuln and that's it.