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 Xenomancers wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:
-BA charged as much as codex marines.
-the first wraithknight or tau'nar in the primary detachment somehow doesn't up the power level of the army, despite being a couple of the most undercosted models in the game. A tau CAD with tau'nar, multiple riptides, yvahras, and markerlight support is a 3 point power level?

I think this one might need a little more time in the oven.

BA have 2 formations that charge from DS and are easily among the top tier armies now. You are right though. Maybe charge BA less for race point but charge more for formations which can charge from DS?


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 Wolfblade wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wolfblade wrote:
What about lists that are stronger without a decurion? i.e., eldar spamming scatbikes are better off with a CAD than a windrider host. At the same time, an eldar CAD using nothing but banshees, scorps, and storm guardians with vaul support batteries with MLs is fairly weak. A better idea is to tax specific units/combos/formations. (i.e. Archon with wraith guard, scatbike units with more than 1 per 3 heavy weapons, WKs under ~1000-1250).

Also, keep in mind you're taxing the IG decurion, one of the WORST in the game. It's like 1100 bare bones for very few bonuses.

(also you forgot Mil tempestus)

My hope here is charging more for the base army will offset. Eldar CAD is strong BUT - its only strong because it unlock a WK which a CAD eldar with a WK is a minimum 7 points. Space marines could feild a CAD and 2 Skyhammers at that point level and I've pretty sure they would have a fair game.

Wrong, the cad is strong because it has no tax. Scat bikes, bikeseer, warp spiders and a WK are all FAR from being taxes. And your example is flawed, as both are already fairly equal armies, but take kingbobbito's example. The armies have the same "point" value but the IG/DA one will get stomped 95% of the time. You shouldn't be comparing already similar armies and going "yup, my system works!", but rather compare armies of different levels (again, see kingbobbito's example)

But besides that. How about a daemon CAD? HQ is say, 4x heralds, both being ML1. 4WC there, then they take 5x pink horror units, max size. thats 19WC exactly, then flavor to taste with non WC units, which adds up to only 6pt. How do you account for the extra points of the horrors spawn JUST from dying, all of which will then die and spawn more AND they all generate warpcharges? Lets not forgot the obvious the daemon summoning which brings more WC?

Your system has massive flaws, a better idea is to talk with your opponent and compare army lists and tone up/down as needed.

19 warp dice and ally you are doing is casting flickering fire and maybe able to summon with a single herald if you are lucky. I mean the pink horror is a crazy unit but that army has almost 0 punch. It has no magnus - no fateweaver - and would be rolled in a single turn by a single wolf star...I mean I see where you are coming from - do you think daemons should have a higher starting value here? Maybe 5 or 6?

except the primaris is summoning, which while the horrors can't get anymore iirc, the heralds do. You have 4 of them rolling on mal, hoping for anything, that summons, plus the primaris power. Or worst case, drop the horrors to only generate 2x charges from 4 of the squads and pump the heralds up to ML2 for even better chances at good powers.

And no, the point is that your point system sucks. I can build a 7pt army which will stomp over something with much higher point value (again, kingbobbito's example, and that isn't even the worst that can be done to exacerbate the flaws.)

Ex:

Eldar CAD: Autarch, 2x storm guardians. 4pt, then rinse and repeat until out of points, each CAD after that adding SIX points for and autarch and storm guardians, upgrades and actual usefulness of units being ignored.

 jreilly89 wrote:
At what point level? My longest games even at 2000 points are 4 hours

When do you have 8 straight hours on a given day to play two straight games (including taking a break between games, bathroom breaks, getting food... probably two meals over 8 hours). I mean that turns 8 hours into anywhere from 10 to 11 hours.

Granted, I understand that these are games at people's houses, but my local GW store doesn't stay open for more than 8 hours straight. You wouldn't have time to finish two 2000 point games in a single day at the store.

SG

So out of curiosity, would you consider these two lists to be equal?

List 1 1500 pts Eldar CAD + Aspect Host formation
CAD
HQ
- Illic Nightspear
- Warlock Conclave (10x Warlocks)
Troops
- Rangers (10x Rangers)
- Storm Guardians (20x Guardians, 2 with Power Sword, Warlock)
Lord of War
- Avatar of Khaine
Aspect Host (+1 WS)
- 3x Howling Banshee (9x Banshee, 1 Exarch with Mirror Swords)

10 points (Eldar (4) + LoW (3) + Formation (2) + Warp Charge 11 (1))

List 2 1498 pts Eldar Craftworld Warhost
Windrider Host
- Farseer Skyrunner
- Warlock Conclave (1x Warlock Skyrunner)
- Vyper Squadron (1x Vyper)
- 3x Windriders (3x Windrider with Scatter Laser)
Warith Host
- Spiritseer
- 3x Wraithguard (5x Wraithguard)
- Wraithlord (Bright Lance, Ghostglaive)
- Skathach Wraithknight (2x Inferno Lance, 2x Starcannon)
10 points (Eldar (4) + Warhost (3) + Lord of War (3) + Warp Charges 4 (0))

This ranking mostly depends on your meta, as orks and dark eldar can be way better than armies like tyranids, GK and BA. Also SM not being top tiers is funny. But if in your area orks and DE are fluffy armies and SM don't abuse their gimmicks that ranking can be ok.

Not sure how to organize a tournament but in my group we have a way to make games balanced. We bring TAC lists with some other miniatures in reserve, and when we actually see what we have brought we fix our lists in order to make them on similar levels. It's ok if a list come clearly better than the other one but not if even a no brainer can table the opponent by turn 3. This way games are lot of fun most of the times, typically open to any result till turn 4 at least..

Raptors are Assault Marines... Except instead of ATSKNF, they get Fear. Woo-hoo. That's easily a 2 point per model rule right there they DON'T get, and get maybe a 1/2 point rule in its place.

They also HAVE to pay for a Champion.

But yeah, they're pretty similar to Assault Marines... Which are generally considered a poor unit.

BA get Sanguinary Guard, who, for just under twice the points cost, have twice the survivability against most things (2+ as compared to 3+), a better gun, a MUCH BETTER CCW, Fearless, and Furious Charge. Cry me a river.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Raptors are Assault Marines... Except instead of ATSKNF, they get Fear. Woo-hoo. That's easily a 2 point per model rule right there they DON'T get, and get maybe a 1/2 point rule in its place.

They also HAVE to pay for a Champion.

But yeah, they're pretty similar to Assault Marines... Which are generally considered a poor unit.

BA get Sanguinary Guard, who, for just under twice the points cost, have twice the survivability against most things (2+ as compared to 3+), a better gun, a MUCH BETTER CCW, Fearless, and Furious Charge. Cry me a river.

Have you ever tried to actually use SG? They're victims in 7th ed.

OP, why aren't you using a preexisting system like Community Comp?

Deadnight wrote:
Rather than each player being responsible for bringing one part of the equation to the table independently of the other, my preference would be to design both lists together.

This works even better if you're designing unique missions together, too.

40k is very customizable, it's just a question of getting everyone on the same wavelength.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I have seen these formations doing well on the table man - vs incredibly powerful stuff. Assault terms locked in combat all game are actually very points efficient.

That's my impression too. TH/SS is a very good profile once it's actually in CC.

 ServiceGames wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
At what point level? My longest games even at 2000 points are 4 hours

When do you have 8 straight hours on a given day to play two straight games (including taking a break between games, bathroom breaks, getting food... probably two meals over 8 hours). I mean that turns 8 hours into anywhere from 10 to 11 hours.

Granted, I understand that these are games at people's houses, but my local GW store doesn't stay open for more than 8 hours straight. You wouldn't have time to finish two 2000 point games in a single day at the store.

SG

Some Saturdays. My point wasn't about playing 2 games at once, but more *his games shouldn't be taking 5 hours*. I regularly complete an 1850-2000 point game in about 2 1/2 hours

Tweaking my suggestion a little if time is also an issue. Write your lists. Put one figure from each army in a hand behind your back. Your opponent chooses a hand. Play the army picked.

Yoyoyo wrote:

Deadnight wrote:
Rather than each player being responsible for bringing one part of the equation to the table independently of the other, my preference would be to design both lists together.

This works even better if you're designing unique missions together, too.

40k is very customizable, it's just a question of getting everyone on the same wavelength.

Unique missions and designed terrain do more toward inter-faction balance and quarrel-free enjoyment of 40K than comp/restriction system. Double/multi matches (which can be played over more than a single session - there is no need for 8-10 hours of play; terrain can be photographed and recreated next day/week/month) also make for much better experience, smoothing out lucky '6' and giving both players more time to meaningfully understand eachother lists. But they require mutual consent, design and cross faction understanding of 40K, things that relatively few players wish to do or learn how to do.

@OP: the main problem I have with blanket cost of any given faction is that it leads to "typical army lists" to not end up severly handicapped. I don't know about Daemons, but Eldar (contrary to popular belief) can be built to be "hard mode", especially when "negatively-tailored" against known enemy to reflect "glass cannon trying to tip the scales" kind of force. In your system you'll never see a fluffy Pale Courts army built predominantly with Guardians/Rangers and Guardian-manned machines backed up by less-effective Aspect Warriors or 1-in-3 bikes, because every Eldar list in your comp has to be at least 4 points effective to be fair. So you end up playing all the same every time, because you have ballanced your comp in certain, prejudiced way. This may work in your particular, closed group, because you have your own limited collections of models, but is "unscalable" for wider community.

And I really must back Elbows on this one - needing a comp system among "friends" does feel awfully lot like "you're not all that friendly after all"...


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 jreilly89 wrote:

 ServiceGames wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
At what point level? My longest games even at 2000 points are 4 hours

When do you have 8 straight hours on a given day to play two straight games (including taking a break between games, bathroom breaks, getting food... probably two meals over 8 hours). I mean that turns 8 hours into anywhere from 10 to 11 hours.

Granted, I understand that these are games at people's houses, but my local GW store doesn't stay open for more than 8 hours straight. You wouldn't have time to finish two 2000 point games in a single day at the store.

SG

Some Saturdays. My point wasn't about playing 2 games at once, but more *his games shouldn't be taking 5 hours*. I regularly complete an 1850-2000 point game in about 2 1/2 hours

Ever tried to play 2000pts Maelstrom over elaborate, fully 3D terrain? It can take as long as 8-10 hours if you have to realy think in-game, take time to carefully move models/units on heavily textured diorama with a lot of wobbly spots, actually check LOS/distances a lot and even a single side of game is a horde/summon/resurrecting army... Not all 40K is tournament-style Eternal War tailored for 3hr "blocks" of limited time. I had to switch to 1100-1500 pts games to fit more than one match over the entire weekend. And believe me, I know my game very well - some things just take time...

A tooled up orikanstar w/ 6 wraiths in a decurion is 6 points going by your system, as a decurion needs ancillary formation to be legal.

Reclamation legion

Zandrekh
5x immortals
10x lychguard w/ shields
3x tomb blades w/ scopes and vanes
10x warriors
10x warriors


Royal court
1x O/lord w/ shroud, shifter, scythe
1x cryptek w/ solar staff
1x Orikan
1x Lord w/ viel, shifter, scythe
1x Obyron

Aux
6x wraiths w/ coils
1x spyder
3x scarab's

thats 3 points for being necrons, 3 points for the decurion (canoptek harvest has to be included to form a legal decurion), and at most, 2 points for the ancillary royal court. 8 points for a very nasty death star?

On top of that, you could get 6x obsec troop units, still have the wraiths, have an even nastier deathstar (with the same resilience level as in the decurion) all by taking a triple CAD, therefor dropping it down to 3 points for basic necron point cost? all under 1850

 CrownAxe wrote:
OP, why aren't you using a preexisting system like Community Comp?

I had never heard of that before. I just checked it out for about 5 minutes. It's possibly a little too hardcore from what we are looking for.


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Klowny wrote:
A tooled up orikanstar w/ 6 wraiths in a decurion is 6 points going by your system, as a decurion needs ancillary formation to be legal.

Reclamation legion

Zandrekh
5x immortals
10x lychguard w/ shields
3x tomb blades w/ scopes and vanes
10x warriors
10x warriors


Royal court
1x O/lord w/ shroud, shifter, scythe
1x cryptek w/ solar staff
1x Orikan
1x Lord w/ viel, shifter, scythe
1x Obyron

Aux
6x wraiths w/ coils
1x spyder
3x scarab's

thats 3 points for being necrons, 3 points for the decurion (canoptek harvest has to be included to form a legal decurion), and at most, 2 points for the ancillary royal court. 8 points for a very nasty death star?

On top of that, you could get 6x obsec troop units, still have the wraiths, have an even nastier deathstar (with the same resilience level as in the decurion) all by taking a triple CAD, therefor dropping it down to 3 points for basic necron point cost? all under 1850

That list would be equal to a gladius strike force.

Necrons = 3 Decurion=3 3x single formations = 6

 Xenomancers wrote:

Formations that charge from deep strike 3 points.

Problem with this is some are better than others. space marines have a formation that can choose when to arrive and doesn't scatter within range of scouts and charges from deep strike without penalty. Chaos marines have the raptor talon that you still roll to enter and scatter from and can only make disorganised charges.

one is taxed too heavily, the other is only taxed enough because of the army tax itself.

Tristanleo wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Formations that charge from deep strike 3 points.

Problem with this is some are better than others. space marines have a formation that can choose when to arrive and doesn't scatter within range of scouts and charges from deep strike without penalty. Chaos marines have the raptor talon that you still roll to enter and scatter from and can only make disorganised charges.

one is taxed too heavily, the other is only taxed enough because of the army tax itself.

What would your suggestion be here? I think the simpler the system is the more likely people would want to use it. If you have a special price for every unique formation - playing the game becomes more of a job than this game already is. Simple is better I think.

I did a little research - Bringing fateweaver + some Icon managment you can deploy these boys pretty aggressively if they are warp talons. It's not automatic - but it's about as automatic as the space marine versions. It might be expensive but it rightfully should be. Assault from deep strike is probably the strongest ability in the game.

I think one of the issues you have is that you're trying to find a general point for point system that says this will work for all factions versus all factions. You might want to try doing it as a faction per faction point system wherein the points for factions versus each faction will change based on general difficulty. While this certainly won't solve issues like Decurions/Detachments being used, it'll give more flexibility to the general idea of what you're looking for in terms of equalization. Some races perform better or worse against other races. That is something that the current iteration of your project doesn't look like it might be handling very well. Another thought is to think of a handicap system based on the difference in points in your system to the army with the lower amount of total grade points in the range of 10-50 points.

Another possibility would be to take a look at the arm(y/ies) being used in your group and then talking about what was sorely lacking. or bad in the rules used in the game that lead to the outcome of the game. After this, perhaps assign point values in this system (Or in a player system) to house rules that can be bought in using player points (or maybe 1/4 of a point with some way to make up the fraction differences). This is where unique mission types, or house ruling could help to solve the issues that you might be experiencing in your group. The 40k rules try to encompass quite a few armies but fail when it comes to some over others (assault based armies being a glaring example) and maybe giving a one point system with things taking .25-.5 in order to be included in an army could work to help bridge some gaps for the time being while the players in your group work on tactical evaluation in the game.

Example
1 point player system
Player uses Blood Angels quite a bit and may not have the newer supplement to help out their army. They're stuck with deep striking in units that then have to sit there and get shot to death before being able to perform their role at all.

Player Options Available

.5 - Impact Arrival - Units arrive from deep strike with such heavy impact regardless of terrain that they kick up a minor crater in the ground they have learned to use through extensive training. All units arriving by deep strike that are identified as dedicated assault units prior to the start of the game, letting your opponent know which fall under this title, create a piece of crater terrain on their impact point supplying a 6+ cover save during the turn in which they arrive and are free to move out of the crater as if it were open terrain. Opponents attempting to charge the unit must roll as if charging into difficult terrain. Any further interactions with this terrain area for the rest of the game work normally as per the BRB

.75 - That Boulder - Enemy units hear the skies roar prior to the arrival of your forces who have learned to use the momentum of their arrival to their advantage, your units are now able to charge the turn they arrive via deep strike with -1 initiative and as a disorganized charge. Units arriving and charging this way gain the furious charge rule, or gain an additional +1 Strength if they already have the rule.

1.0 - Khorne's Blessed Blood Rain - Prior to the start of the game, roll a d6 and make a note of the result. During the terrain arranging phase, the player whose army consists mostly of Khorne Daemonkin, or, Marks of Khorne rolls a d6 and places that many large blase marker size blood pools anywhere in No Man's Land that is a minimum of 8" from the enemy's deployment zone.. These pools act as blessed markings of the arrival of the Blood God's wrath descending upon this world, allowing 1 non-vehicle unit to deploy in the blood pool area rather than your deployment zone. Units that are able to reach enemy units on your first turn charge as a disorganized charge, however the blood on their feet gives them the fleet rule until the end of your first turn.

While these might be a tad overpowered, asking about the weaknesses that the players see in each other's armies and then maybe being able to get feedback from the other players in the group could just help supply next level tactical advice that might make your system become irrelevant after enough understanding is gained. It sounds like you might have an experience gap that no amount of systems can cure.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Tristanleo wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Formations that charge from deep strike 3 points.

Problem with this is some are better than others. space marines have a formation that can choose when to arrive and doesn't scatter within range of scouts and charges from deep strike without penalty. Chaos marines have the raptor talon that you still roll to enter and scatter from and can only make disorganised charges.

one is taxed too heavily, the other is only taxed enough because of the army tax itself.

What would your suggestion be here? I think the simpler the system is the more likely people would want to use it. If you have a special price for every unique formation - playing the game becomes more of a job than this game already is. Simple is better I think.

I did a little research - Bringing fateweaver + some Icon managment you can deploy these boys pretty aggressively if they are warp talons. It's not automatic - but it's about as automatic as the space marine versions. It might be expensive but it rightfully should be. Assault from deep strike is probably the strongest ability in the game.

The problem you have in the system is that you're not looking at all the overarching abilities that stack in with these bonuses. being able to deploy when you choose, rather than when the dice dictate, is a massive bonus as this allows for a very precise attack exactly when and where the most effect would be. Nothing can compare to how immensely powerful this is in any deepstrike charge army.

this compared to a free jump pack for a lord as a mandatory requirement, all charges being disorganised the turn they deepstrike and -2 leadership if 2 of the units from the formation charge the same unit pales very much in comparison.

There should be stacking costs as to how the rule works.

Can the unit assault after deepstriking? 1 point
Does the unit have a formation bonus that affects the reserve roll? 1 point
Does the unit have a formation bonus that affects the scatter result? 1 point
does the unit suffer any negative modifiers after deepstriking? yes, 0 Point. No, 1 point.
Ect, ect.

also, as for assault after deepstrike seeming much stronger, this is mainly because assault has become less of a factor in most games with the changes to shooting in the recent editions so when units are tied up in combat, a lot of power is lost in terms of firepower.

Just use a simple handicap system. It's much simpler than what is being proposed here.

[(Number of points winner killed) - (Number of points loser killed)] / (Number of games) =
(Handicap points given to losing player)

There is no easy all covering solution but since you are playing amongst friends you need to bear the indivdual you're playing in mind and adjust naacording to that.

None of my friends have admech or necrons so no need to account for them eldar, DE and SM on the other hand.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Tristanleo wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Formations that charge from deep strike 3 points.

Problem with this is some are better than others. space marines have a formation that can choose when to arrive and doesn't scatter within range of scouts and charges from deep strike without penalty. Chaos marines have the raptor talon that you still roll to enter and scatter from and can only make disorganised charges.

one is taxed too heavily, the other is only taxed enough because of the army tax itself.

What would your suggestion be here? I think the simpler the system is the more likely people would want to use it. If you have a special price for every unique formation - playing the game becomes more of a job than this game already is. Simple is better I think.

I did a little research - Bringing fateweaver + some Icon managment you can deploy these boys pretty aggressively if they are warp talons. It's not automatic - but it's about as automatic as the space marine versions. It might be expensive but it rightfully should be. Assault from deep strike is probably the strongest ability in the game.

The problem is a simple solution won't work because of how unbalanced 40k is. IG decurion should not have the same point value as the SM/necron decurion. the system has to account for EVERYTHING in EVERY possible combination that might make it broken. Is Azrael broken if he gives a 4++ to an assault marine squad? No. To the barkstar? yes. Are psykers broken? Maybe, depends what they roll on and what they get. If they only roll for pyromancy they're basically glorified melta guns/heavy flamers. But if they get invisibility suddenly one unit is basically unkillable.

OP's problem is that some players are bringing weak armies and some are not. Since his system takes no account of the small subset of units/formations/detachments/LoWs that are much more powerful than the others it fails to fix that problem.

Making two armies with the same comp score that are vastly different power levels is trivial.

If all of his players were striving for powerful lists and this was an attempt to slow the arms race it might be okay but that is not the situation described.