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My friend and I are working on a system that will help players bring lists of similar power levels against each other in an effort to have fair and fun games. We sat down and worked out a system which assigns points to an army based on certain factors. Army/formations/LOW/magic dice ect. Interested to get Dakkas opinion on this. A few members in our group didn’t think it was such a great idea but I think with the right tweeks this will allows players to build whatever kind of list they want and expect a fair game in return.
The idea here is that players will agree on a power level whilst keeping the army they are bringing a secret (This will avoid unconsciously tailoring your list.) Here is the list of parameters we use to assign these “power points.”

Race
4 Points – Eldar/Daemons
3 Points – Space Marines(all derivitives minus those specifically listed)/Tau/ADmech-Skitari/Necron
2 Points – Greyknights/AM/Harlequins/Nids/CSM/Bloodangels
1 Point – Orks/ Dark Eldar

IK we don’t charge a race point because each model is technically a LOW and we charge for that differently.
Each LOW is 3 points and we don't charge them for their first if it is their primary detachment. (example an 1850 5 IK army with 5 knights would be 12 points instead of 15)

If you include a Decurion 3 points are added in the total
Each formation outside of your primary detachment is an additional 2 points
Formations that charge from deep strike 3 points.
If you include an ally – just add the race points into your total for the first deteachment instead of your formation points – additional formations from the same ally will cost 2 after the first.
For magic pool – 9WC or less is 0 points 10-14 is 1 point/ 15-19 is 2 points/ and 20+ is 3 points.

Here is an example.

An Eldar force using the reborn warhost an Yncarne an Aspect host with 2 farseers will be a power level 12.
4 (eldar) + 3 (decuirion) + 3(LOW) +2(additional formation) +0 (warpcharge 6)

A Gladius strike force with 2 demi companies and a suppression force would be a power level 12 as well.
3(Space Marines) + 3 (Gladius strike force) + 2x2 (2 demi companies) + 2 (suppression force).

Double Eldar CAD with a riptide wing and 2 WK
4(eldar) + 2 (additional formation) +3 (tau formation) + 3x2 (2 WK) that’s a 15 pointer.

So you get the idea of how it would work. So far I’ve worked out a bunch of combinations and typically power point levels seem to produce fair list by comparison. At around 1850 points – if you set a point restriction of say 8 points – you would seriously be limiting an armies ability to field cheese. If you move up to 12 points you would be able to field fully functional tournament level lists. Above that – and you are looking at completely insane lists that wouldn’t even be legal in a tournament.

Anyways Dakka – take a look at this and tell me what you think?
Do some values need to change? Is it being unfair to some armies – how would you fix it? Anything we are missing?

I made a few changes - reduced BA and CSM starting point values. Adjusted charge from deep strike formations to 3 points rather than 2.

Still considering certain units getting special point cost increase - IE tiggy.

Honestly, I think it'd be better to just talk it out. You're just among friends, right?

That being said, this seems like the beginning of a decent comp system, so you might as well finish it.

Any time you enforce restrictions like this, stronger armies only get stronger relatively. They can ignore the "limitations" your using and still be great, weaker armies cannot.

What about lists that are stronger without a decurion? i.e., eldar spamming scatbikes are better off with a CAD than a windrider host. At the same time, an eldar CAD using nothing but banshees, scorps, and storm guardians with vaul support batteries with MLs is fairly weak. A better idea is to tax specific units/combos/formations. (i.e. Archon with wraith guard, scatbike units with more than 1 per 3 heavy weapons, WKs under ~1000-1250).

Also, keep in mind you're taxing the IG decurion, one of the WORST in the game. It's like 1100 bare bones for very few bonuses.

(also you forgot Mil tempestus)

 JNAProductions wrote:
Honestly, I think it'd be better to just talk it out. You're just among friends, right?

That being said, this seems like the beginning of a decent comp system, so you might as well finish it.

Talking it out hasn't really been working for us. For example - when a friend tells me to bring a toned down list - I bring grey-knights. He claims I brought a tornament list but I would never bring GK to a tornament - I'd get waxed. It's just with a different perspective of power levels while still trying to avoid unconscious bias - something of a guideline to follow seem more reasonable that just talking it out and hoping for the best.

We went for something like this.
He said don't play Eldar - I said don't bring a Typhon. He asked what power level army I was bringing and I said 3.5 out of 5. My logic was I wa bringing primarily GK and the GK list I brought was not the strongest greyknight list I could make - so Greyknights is an automatic -1 on the power level scale and seeing how I could make the list stronger if took even less troops than I took - i said 3.5. I think reasonably when you consider my logic I was being fair. In the end I brought a much more powerful list than my friend.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wolfblade wrote:
What about lists that are stronger without a decurion? i.e., eldar spamming scatbikes are better off with a CAD than a windrider host. At the same time, an eldar CAD using nothing but banshees, scorps, and storm guardians with vaul support batteries with MLs is fairly weak. A better idea is to tax specific units/combos/formations. (i.e. Archon with wraith guard, scatbike units with more than 1 per 3 heavy weapons, WKs under ~1000-1250).

Also, keep in mind you're taxing the IG decurion, one of the WORST in the game. It's like 1100 bare bones for very few bonuses.

(also you forgot Mil tempestus)

My hope here is charging more for the base army will offset. Eldar CAD is strong BUT - its only strong because it unlock a WK which a CAD eldar with a WK is a minimum 7 points. Space marines could feild a CAD and 2 Skyhammers at that point level and I've pretty sure they would have a fair game.

How about:

Bring your army of x points. We'll play two games. First game list as brought. Second game play using your opponent's list.

stroller wrote:
How about:

Bring your army of x points. We'll play two games. First game list as brought. Second game play using your opponent's list.

Problem with that is who has time to play 2 games? My games tend to run around 5+ hours.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Any time you enforce restrictions like this, stronger armies only get stronger relatively. They can ignore the "limitations" your using and still be great, weaker armies cannot.

Give me an example - This system does take into count relative strength of armies. Eldar and daemons initial cost is higher - do you not think we are charging them enough?

 Xenomancers wrote:

stroller wrote:
How about:

Bring your army of x points. We'll play two games. First game list as brought. Second game play using your opponent's list.

Problem with that is who has time to play 2 games? My games tend to run around 5+ hours.

At what point level? My longest games even at 2000 points are 4 hours


Automatically Appended Next Post:
System to ensure fair games:
"Hey, are Lords of War allowed?"

"Do you want a tournament level game or a casual no-cheese game?"

And go.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Talking it out hasn't really been working for us. For example - when a friend tells me to bring a toned down list - I bring grey-knights. He claims I brought a tornament list but I would never bring GK to a tornament - I'd get waxed. It's just with a different perspective of power levels while still trying to avoid unconscious bias - something of a guideline to follow seem more reasonable that just talking it out and hoping for the best.

What is his perception of what amounts to 'toned down' versus your perception?

I find 'talk it out' works well for our group, but then it's a pretty easy going, casual approach. I find co-operative game/list building is a good way forwards for this kind of thing. Rather than each player being responsible for bringing one part of the equation to the table independently of the other, my preference would be to design both lists together (and it helps to do this on the understanding that either player could play either side of the game). It's in both players interests to have a good game, so I would argue it's in Both players interests to put the work in.

Good luck anyway.

My crappy IG/DA list
2 for guard CAD (primary)
3 for DA CAD (librarian, vets, 2x scouts or tacs)
3 for Azrael
2 for DW strike force (1 libarian and 2 units of termies)
2 for RW attack squadron (1 unit of standard bikes and a land speeder)

Adds up to 12 for a fun but overall underwhelming list.

vs an eldar list
4 points for CAD (that spams scatbikes and spiders)
WK (1st one in primary is free)
4 points for CAD (again w/ scatbikes/spiders)
3 for 2nd WK

Adds up to 11 points (so should be worse than my list) but will stomp me 90% of the time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

stroller wrote:
How about:

Bring your army of x points. We'll play two games. First game list as brought. Second game play using your opponent's list.

Problem with that is who has time to play 2 games? My games tend to run around 5+ hours.

At what point level? My longest games even at 2000 points are 4 hours

Seriously. 2000 usually takes 3 or 3 and a half hours, max 4.

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

stroller wrote:
How about:

Bring your army of x points. We'll play two games. First game list as brought. Second game play using your opponent's list.

Problem with that is who has time to play 2 games? My games tend to run around 5+ hours.

At what point level? My longest games even at 2000 points are 4 hours


Automatically Appended Next Post:
System to ensure fair games:
"Hey, are Lords of War allowed?"

"Do you want a tournament level game or a casual no-cheese game?"

And go.

Well we aren't trying to speed game or anything - it's understood we aren't getting 2 games in and we are happy to not rush as a result. The setup process probably takes almost an hour until turn 1. then it's probably 3-5 hours from there. Between 2000 - 3000 points.

the problem is cheese is not a factual thing. For some people a dreadknight is cheesy. For some people taking any kind of formation is cheesy. For some people including a weapon type in your army is cheesy. That's not a system that is going to allow two people with different concepts of power to have good games. Keep in mind that we aren't designing this specifically to have fair games between each other (most of the time thats not a problem anyways)- this is a system that we hope could allow complete strangers to have a fair game - without negotiating anything previous before the game other than an army power level number. That's what we are going for. Do you think it's fruitless? Or do you have any ideas to improve the system?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kingbobbito wrote:
My crappy IG/DA list
2 for guard CAD (primary)
3 for DA CAD (librarian, vets, 2x scouts or tacs)
3 for Azrael
2 for DW strike force (1 libarian and 2 units of termies)
2 for RW attack squadron (1 unit of standard bikes and a land speeder)

Adds up to 12 for a fun but overall underwhelming list.

vs an eldar list
4 points for CAD (that spams scatbikes and spiders)
WK (1st one in primary is free)
4 points for CAD (again w/ scatbikes/spiders)
3 for 2nd WK

Adds up to 11 points (so should be worse than my list) but will stomp me 90% of the time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

stroller wrote:
How about:

Bring your army of x points. We'll play two games. First game list as brought. Second game play using your opponent's list.

Problem with that is who has time to play 2 games? My games tend to run around 5+ hours.

At what point level? My longest games even at 2000 points are 4 hours

Seriously. 2000 usually takes 3 or 3 and a half hours, max 4.

LOW is always 3 points - you don't get a free one. Unless you are playing Imperial knights as a primary detachment - they get one free LOW - so an army of 5 kngihts at 1850 would be 12 points not 15.

Also - the potential of azreal in an IG army is actually very high. I'm not saying your army is cheesy but with DA and IG combined you can make some very competitive combinations. Think 4++ invo blobs spitting out 150 rending attacks...not even a WK has a chance.

-BA charged as much as codex marines.
-the first wraithknight or tau'nar in the primary detachment somehow doesn't up the power level of the army, despite being a couple of the most undercosted models in the game. A tau CAD with tau'nar, multiple riptides, yvahras, and markerlight support is a 3 point power level?

I think this one might need a little more time in the oven.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wolfblade wrote:
What about lists that are stronger without a decurion? i.e., eldar spamming scatbikes are better off with a CAD than a windrider host. At the same time, an eldar CAD using nothing but banshees, scorps, and storm guardians with vaul support batteries with MLs is fairly weak. A better idea is to tax specific units/combos/formations. (i.e. Archon with wraith guard, scatbike units with more than 1 per 3 heavy weapons, WKs under ~1000-1250).

Also, keep in mind you're taxing the IG decurion, one of the WORST in the game. It's like 1100 bare bones for very few bonuses.

(also you forgot Mil tempestus)

My hope here is charging more for the base army will offset. Eldar CAD is strong BUT - its only strong because it unlock a WK which a CAD eldar with a WK is a minimum 7 points. Space marines could feild a CAD and 2 Skyhammers at that point level and I've pretty sure they would have a fair game.

Wrong, the cad is strong because it has no tax. Scat bikes, bikeseer, warp spiders and a WK are all FAR from being taxes. And your example is flawed, as both are already fairly equal armies, but take kingbobbito's example. The armies have the same "point" value but the IG/DA one will get stomped 95% of the time. You shouldn't be comparing already similar armies and going "yup, my system works!", but rather compare armies of different levels (again, see kingbobbito's example)

But besides that. How about a daemon CAD? HQ is say, 4x heralds, both being ML1. 4WC there, then they take 5x pink horror units, max size. thats 19WC exactly, then flavor to taste with non WC units, which adds up to only 6pt. How do you account for the extra points of the horrors spawn JUST from dying, all of which will then die and spawn more AND they all generate warpcharges? Lets not forgot the obvious the daemon summoning which brings more WC?

Your system has massive flaws, a better idea is to talk with your opponent and compare army lists and tone up/down as needed.

 niv-mizzet wrote:
-BA charged as much as codex marines.
-the first wraithknight or tau'nar in the primary detachment somehow doesn't up the power level of the army, despite being a couple of the most undercosted models in the game. A tau CAD with tau'nar, multiple riptides, yvahras, and markerlight support is a 3 point power level?

I think this one might need a little more time in the oven.

BA have 2 formations that charge from DS and are easily among the top tier armies now. You are right though. Maybe charge BA less for race point but charge more for formations which can charge from DS?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wolfblade wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wolfblade wrote:
What about lists that are stronger without a decurion? i.e., eldar spamming scatbikes are better off with a CAD than a windrider host. At the same time, an eldar CAD using nothing but banshees, scorps, and storm guardians with vaul support batteries with MLs is fairly weak. A better idea is to tax specific units/combos/formations. (i.e. Archon with wraith guard, scatbike units with more than 1 per 3 heavy weapons, WKs under ~1000-1250).

Also, keep in mind you're taxing the IG decurion, one of the WORST in the game. It's like 1100 bare bones for very few bonuses.

(also you forgot Mil tempestus)

My hope here is charging more for the base army will offset. Eldar CAD is strong BUT - its only strong because it unlock a WK which a CAD eldar with a WK is a minimum 7 points. Space marines could feild a CAD and 2 Skyhammers at that point level and I've pretty sure they would have a fair game.

Wrong, the cad is strong because it has no tax. Scat bikes, bikeseer, warp spiders and a WK are all FAR from being taxes. And your example is flawed, as both are already fairly equal armies, but take kingbobbito's example. The armies have the same "point" value but the IG/DA one will get stomped 95% of the time. You shouldn't be comparing already similar armies and going "yup, my system works!", but rather compare armies of different levels (again, see kingbobbito's example)

But besides that. How about a daemon CAD? HQ is say, 4x heralds, both being ML1. 4WC there, then they take 5x pink horror units, max size. thats 19WC exactly, then flavor to taste with non WC units, which adds up to only 6pt. How do you account for the extra points of the horrors spawn JUST from dying, all of which will then die and spawn more AND they all generate warpcharges? Lets not forgot the obvious the daemon summoning which brings more WC?

Your system has massive flaws, a better idea is to talk with your opponent and compare army lists and tone up/down as needed.

19 warp dice and ally you are doing is casting flickering fire and maybe able to summon with a single herald if you are lucky. I mean the pink horror is a crazy unit but that army has almost 0 punch. It has no magnus - no fateweaver - and would be rolled in a single turn by a single wolf star...I mean I see where you are coming from - do you think daemons should have a higher starting value here? Maybe 5 or 6?

If you need a large complex system...you're not gaming amongst friends.

Clever.

However, Its a bit unnecessary, and my Ynari list is not 16 power level. Not at all.

Not sure about the Decurion/quantity of formations tax, there are a lot of meta-formations that are just better than others (compare the benefits of a Black Spear Strike Force (change Mission Tactics an extra time per game, Deep Strike to all units, reroll on the Deathwatch Warlord Traits table) to the benefits of a Gladius Strike Force (one instance of each Doctrine per game and 550pts of free transports)).

It's a decent quick-and-dirty approximation, but you should consider exceptions for single-squad formations and a price bump for using specific too-good formations (two-demi-company Gladius, Librarius Conclave, etc.) rather than a flat cost for all formations. There are also a few units that may deserve more of a points bump to your army for using too many (Hemlocks, Wraithknights, Riptides...) above and beyond the normal cost.

As for the psykers question it's an annoying one, because you're getting Warp Charge out of both Grey Knight Strike Squads (useless) and Tigurius (incredibly good). I'd say you should charge about a point for every three psykers in the list, but either not count low-ML models/squads with limited utility (Warlock squad leaders, most GK units, Zoanthropes) or count them as half a unit.

People will still go "that army wasn't anywhere close to my power level, it was way to high!" There's a huge difference between the CAD where I bring a drop pod army full of BA dreadnoughts, and the CAD where I bring foot troops of the standard SM variety with one Sanguinary Priest in there somewhere.

Your group needs to define their games better, pure and simple. If there is disagreement over what is fluffy, vs average, vs competitive, they need to figure that out. A system like this won't help.

As for the concept of it helping people in general have more fair games, it's going to run into the exact same issues. There's a reason units have point costs and armies don't(though formations arguably could use them), and the UNIT points are what need refined.

Hate to say it since you've put thought in, but this system simply won't work.

This is something many people try to get right but struggle with the specific details. As other posters have pointed out, there are some defects in non-obvious situations that may be hard to adjust for.

What I have seen done at a FLGS is multiplying points by the currency exchange rates to handicap certain lists. Eldar are the Great British Pound, Space Marines are the Euro, Chaos Space Marines are the US Dollar and Orks are the Canadian Dollar.

So, at 2000 points, Eldar can bring that amount, Space Marines can bring about 2300 points, CSMs can bring about 2500 points, and Orks can bring about 3200 points.

Worked fairly well until someone decided to declare the Imperial Guard Thailand. Any system can be gamed.

 techsoldaten wrote:
...Worked fairly well until someone decided to declare the Imperial Guard Thailand. Any system can be gamed.

Not to mention what happened when the Brexit folks came along to buff the Eldar.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Not sure about the Decurion/quantity of formations tax, there are a lot of meta-formations that are just better than others (compare the benefits of a Black Spear Strike Force (change Mission Tactics an extra time per game, Deep Strike to all units, reroll on the Deathwatch Warlord Traits table) to the benefits of a Gladius Strike Force (one instance of each Doctrine per game and 550pts of free transports)).

It's a decent quick-and-dirty approximation, but you should consider exceptions for single-squad formations and a price bump for using specific too-good formations (two-demi-company Gladius, Librarius Conclave, etc.) rather than a flat cost for all formations. There are also a few units that may deserve more of a points bump to your army for using too many (Hemlocks, Wraithknights, Riptides...) above and beyond the normal cost.

As for the psykers question it's an annoying one, because you're getting Warp Charge out of both Grey Knight Strike Squads (useless) and Tigurius (incredibly good). I'd say you should charge about a point for every three psykers in the list, but either not count low-ML models/squads with limited utility (Warlock squad leaders, most GK units, Zoanthropes) or count them as half a unit.

Thank you - this is the kind of response I was looking for.

Gladius is a minimum 12 points to feild - I feel like that is a fair price compared to what eldar can do with 12 points. It might not match up to the lower tiered armies - AT LEAST - if someone was fielding gladius with a 12 point restriction - they wouldn't be able to throw in a skyhammer or a conclave as well. So 0 psychic protection. Originally I wanted to charge for magic based on Psyker independent characters only. It's just didn't feel restrictive at all. Maybe special characters need to be taxed?

If you do, make it character by character. Lucious deserves no tax, Tigurius does.

"BA have 2 formations that charge from DS and are easily among the top tier armies now."

Are you serious? Neither of those hold a candle to raptor wing, which uses reasonably costed units. SG and Assault termies are overcosted in the BA codex and are both junk units. It's a scheme that has zero chance against a simple gladius.

"Maybe charge BA less for race point but charge more for formations which can charge from DS?"

Again, are you kidding? Those formations aren't even that good. Any good opponent can deploy to make it a suicide trip. Assuming you don't deviate too far to assault successfully. And don't get me started on how amusing the Tau find your assault from *mechanic that activates mass interceptor*. The armies that care about this were the ones already having problems.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Race
4 Points – Eldar/Daemons
3 Points – Space Marines(all derivitives minus those specifically listed)/Tau/ADmech-Skitari/Necron/CSM
2 Points – Greyknights/AM/Harlequins/Nids
1 Point – Orks/ Dark Eldar

So....you're putting CSM at the same tier as SM, Tau, Ad Mech Convocations and Necrons?

No no my son. No.

If anything CSM are a 2 point faction at best - at their very strongest.

In fact I'd say....

CSM combined with Traitor Legions - 2 points.
CSM without using Traitor Legions - 1 point.

Martel732 wrote:
"BA have 2 formations that charge from DS and are easily among the top tier armies now."

Are you serious? Neither of those hold a candle to raptor wing, which uses reasonably costed units. SG and Assault termies are overcosted in the BA codex and are both junk units. It's a scheme that has zero chance against a simple gladius.

"Maybe charge BA less for race point but charge more for formations which can charge from DS?"

Again, are you kidding? Those formations aren't even that good. Any good opponent can deploy to make it a suicide trip. Assuming you don't deviate too far to assault successfully. And don't get me started on how amusing the Tau find your assault from *mechanic that activates mass interceptor*. The armies that care about this were the ones already having problems.

I have seen these formations doing well on the table man - vs incredibly powerful stuff. Assault terms locked in combat all game are actually very points efficient.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Race
4 Points – Eldar/Daemons
3 Points – Space Marines(all derivitives minus those specifically listed)/Tau/ADmech-Skitari/Necron/CSM
2 Points – Greyknights/AM/Harlequins/Nids
1 Point – Orks/ Dark Eldar

So....you're putting CSM at the same tier as SM, Tau, Ad Mech Convocations and Necrons?

No no my son. No.

If anything CSM are a 2 point faction at best - at their very strongest.

In fact I'd say....

CSM combined with Traitor Legions - 2 points.
CSM without using Traitor Legions - 1 point.

Fair point - I think I agree with you too. Except still have access to the new marine powers which are exceptionally powerful.

"I have seen these formations doing well on the table man"

Are the opponents braindead? They can't look at the BA list and see a bunch of assaults coming from DS? This seems like the easiest thing ever to deploy against. It's inferior to the SW in every conceivable way. And raptor wing.

Martel732 wrote:
"I have seen these formations doing well on the table man"

Are the opponents braindead? They can't look at the BA list and see a bunch of assaults coming from DS? This seems like the easiest thing ever to deploy against. It's inferior to the SW in every conceivable way. And raptor wing.

Martel, how is the Raptor Wing better?

Follow-up statement: You're being really whiny. It's not all doom and gloom.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"I have seen these formations doing well on the table man"

Are the opponents braindead? They can't look at the BA list and see a bunch of assaults coming from DS? This seems like the easiest thing ever to deploy against. It's inferior to the SW in every conceivable way. And raptor wing.

Martel, how is the Raptor Wing better?

Follow-up statement: You're being really whiny. It's not all doom and gloom.

Raptor wing gets real melta guns and gets far more bodies on the table. Raptors in general are more fairly costed than SG or BA assualt terminators, making them better DS assaulters. SG in particular are a terrible unit in 7th ed. Are the BA formations good? Yes. Do they fix the fact that BA are overcosted and still not an effective assault army? No. SW still run all over us like we weren't even there.

Skyhammer is strictly better than what BA have access to as well. I forgot about that one temporarily.

Right, like Raptors and Warp Talons aren't overcosted...

 JNAProductions wrote:
Right, like Raptors and Warp Talons aren't overcosted...

Did I mention Warp Talons? Raptors are just assault marines. Assault marines are okay if they can assault from DS. Which... raptors can now. But BA can't. But all the vanilla ones can. They gave assault from DS to the two worst possible choices in the BA codex. SG? Really?

I see BA got updated on the list. That's more accurate, but I'm not sure about the rest of it.

Not all decurions are equally good. That's an issue.