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"An invul save can never be better than a 4+"
Similar but should be interesting in what it does too. It counters the rerollable 2++ however enables the rerollable 5++.


Screw the stormshield change from 4++ in combat only to 3++ for everything.

 Howscat wrote:
Here Is my attempt to fix 40k in one sentence: Erase the formation from existence and only play with the CAD. It would not fix all of the issues by any stretch of the imagination but, it is a good place to start.

Oh yeah, because everything outside the Gladius is sooooooo broken.

 Howscat wrote:
Here Is my attempt to fix 40k in one sentence: Erase the formation from existence and only play with the CAD. It would not fix all of the issues by any stretch of the imagination but, it is a good place to start.

I wasn't aware that the Battle Demi-Company was such a problem.

I mean, for all the stuff you need to take, which could be taken in a CAD anyway, you get a one-use version of the Ultramarine Chapter Tactics. Sure, it's alright, but you need 3 Tactical Squads, a fast moving squad, and a heavy support variant as well as a mandatory Captain or Chaplain. In a CAD, I could take a far better Librarian, two units of Scouts, and then max everything else out with grav Centurions, dropmelta Sternguard or grav bikers.

I think Formations are fine. They're fluffy and they're fun. I think the Formation and CAD should have no difference in benefits - as in, the only difference is that a CAD allows for your own combination of units, whereas a Formation limits your units, but you can afford to have multiple units that would be impossible in a CAD - multiple Librarians, for example, or Elites choices. Unbound then only exists if you want to break the CAD and refuse to use the fluffy organisation - ie, I want to bring a Riptide, Wraithknight and Dreadknight. They get no bonuses at all. The CAD and Formations would all retain ObSec and all have the reroll Warlord Trait ability.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Howscat wrote:
Here Is my attempt to fix 40k in one sentence: Erase the formation from existence and only play with the CAD. It would not fix all of the issues by any stretch of the imagination but, it is a good place to start.

I wasn't aware that the Battle Demi-Company was such a problem.

I mean, for all the stuff you need to take, which could be taken in a CAD anyway, you get a one-use version of the Ultramarine Chapter Tactics. Sure, it's alright, but you need 3 Tactical Squads, a fast moving squad, and a heavy support variant as well as a mandatory Captain or Chaplain. In a CAD, I could take a far better Librarian, two units of Scouts, and then max everything else out with grav Centurions, dropmelta Sternguard or grav bikers.

I think Formations are fine. They're fluffy and they're fun. I think the Formation and CAD should have no difference in benefits - as in, the only difference is that a CAD allows for your own combination of units, whereas a Formation limits your units, but you can afford to have multiple units that would be impossible in a CAD - multiple Librarians, for example, or Elites choices. Unbound then only exists if you want to break the CAD and refuse to use the fluffy organisation - ie, I want to bring a Riptide, Wraithknight and Dreadknight. They get no bonuses at all. The CAD and Formations would all retain ObSec and all have the reroll Warlord Trait ability.

I quite like minor benefits such as +1 initiative on the charge or similar. It's only when formations get crazy like Gladius or Skyhammer that formations are really set apart.

 kirotheavenger wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Howscat wrote:
Here Is my attempt to fix 40k in one sentence: Erase the formation from existence and only play with the CAD. It would not fix all of the issues by any stretch of the imagination but, it is a good place to start.

I wasn't aware that the Battle Demi-Company was such a problem.

I mean, for all the stuff you need to take, which could be taken in a CAD anyway, you get a one-use version of the Ultramarine Chapter Tactics. Sure, it's alright, but you need 3 Tactical Squads, a fast moving squad, and a heavy support variant as well as a mandatory Captain or Chaplain. In a CAD, I could take a far better Librarian, two units of Scouts, and then max everything else out with grav Centurions, dropmelta Sternguard or grav bikers.

I think Formations are fine. They're fluffy and they're fun. I think the Formation and CAD should have no difference in benefits - as in, the only difference is that a CAD allows for your own combination of units, whereas a Formation limits your units, but you can afford to have multiple units that would be impossible in a CAD - multiple Librarians, for example, or Elites choices. Unbound then only exists if you want to break the CAD and refuse to use the fluffy organisation - ie, I want to bring a Riptide, Wraithknight and Dreadknight. They get no bonuses at all. The CAD and Formations would all retain ObSec and all have the reroll Warlord Trait ability.

I quite like minor benefits such as +1 initiative on the charge or similar. It's only when formations get crazy like Gladius or Skyhammer that formations are really set apart.

Again, the Gladius isn't crazy. Getting a one-use Ultramarine Chapter Tactic isn't broken.

Getting free transports when taking two Demi Battle-Companies is.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Howscat wrote:
Here Is my attempt to fix 40k in one sentence: Erase the formation from existence and only play with the CAD. It would not fix all of the issues by any stretch of the imagination but, it is a good place to start.

I wasn't aware that the Battle Demi-Company was such a problem.

I mean, for all the stuff you need to take, which could be taken in a CAD anyway, you get a one-use version of the Ultramarine Chapter Tactics. Sure, it's alright, but you need 3 Tactical Squads, a fast moving squad, and a heavy support variant as well as a mandatory Captain or Chaplain. In a CAD, I could take a far better Librarian, two units of Scouts, and then max everything else out with grav Centurions, dropmelta Sternguard or grav bikers.

I think Formations are fine. They're fluffy and they're fun. I think the Formation and CAD should have no difference in benefits - as in, the only difference is that a CAD allows for your own combination of units, whereas a Formation limits your units, but you can afford to have multiple units that would be impossible in a CAD - multiple Librarians, for example, or Elites choices. Unbound then only exists if you want to break the CAD and refuse to use the fluffy organisation - ie, I want to bring a Riptide, Wraithknight and Dreadknight. They get no bonuses at all. The CAD and Formations would all retain ObSec and all have the reroll Warlord Trait ability.

I quite like minor benefits such as +1 initiative on the charge or similar. It's only when formations get crazy like Gladius or Skyhammer that formations are really set apart.

Again, the Gladius isn't crazy. Getting a one-use Ultramarine Chapter Tactic isn't broken.

Getting free transports when taking two Demi Battle-Companies is.

I forgot my vehicles when I took gladius to a GT in October. (Grabbed the wrong identical case.) My wife drove it up there in time for round 2, but I still had to play round 1 missing 9 pods, 5 razorbacks, and 2 dreads against an eldar double-CAD with wraithknight, a couple large scatbike squads escorting farseers, some minimum scatbike squads, and some warp spiders in a shrine formation.

I still won 7-5. Turns out getting rerolls to hit for half the game is still really good, especially when you're also getting the chapter tactic of your choice past that. (In this case good ol' hit and run.)

I use formations at events because everyone else is and trying to win without them when facing against them is dumb, but the overall game would be much better at this point if the tourney scene would've banned the firebase cadre the instant it showed up years ago.

Turns out when you take a game that's already not balanced, and then randomly distribute power-multiplying formations unevenly across the armies, you get a significantly more unbalanced game. CAD tactical marines have no place being on the same table across from riptides, but don't even belong in the same event as bunch of riptides that can double fire, almost never fail their reactor roll, and came without any squishy tax units.

Someday I hope either the competitive players wise up to how slowed formations are or that 8e kills them with fire. They are the worst thing to ever happen to the game.

I appreciate the mentality of the OP. I don't play current 40K so I can't bother with the argument, but anything which removes the silliness that plagues the current game gets a thumbs up from me.

A better solution to the OPs exact arguement could instead be something like
''if a unit for any reason obtains a rerollable save of any kind they instead pass that save on one lower (so a 4+ rerollable becomes a regular 3+). If this means they end up with a 1+ armour save they instead get a reroll on their 2+, with the reroll only passing on a 6+.
Rerollable effects can therefore stack, giving better and better saves. With saves that would be pushed to 1+ or even lower instead getting a reroll with modifers to that. So a would-be 0+ save in this system would be a 2+ followed by a 5+ save. (see BS6+)

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Again, the Gladius isn't crazy. Getting a one-use Ultramarine Chapter Tactic isn't broken.

Getting free transports when taking two Demi Battle-Companies is.

The Gladius is what gives the two Demi Battle Companies Free Transports. Its one of the two Gladius Special Rules.

Implement d10 system.

See above.

doktor_g's eratta = No rerollables.

The reason everyone is so upset is because it has been the biggest crutch / win button of the meta of the last 2 editions. If you dont have it, you are mid to bottom tier. Period.

Yet to have seen proof otherwise, other than personal attacks. Like calling me a troll.

Priests give rerolls to Sisters, Guard, and Inquisition. Are they top tier?

Orks have Da Lucky Stick. Are they top tier?

Rerollable 2+ is bad (2.7%).

Rerollable 3+ (11%) is less than a D10 facing.

Rerollable 4+ (25%) is less than a D6 facing.

GW just needs to reduce interlocking synergies, they even have rules designed just for that purpose (like Mark of Tzeentch).

JNAProd: c'mon brother. Orks have ONE unique option that only applies to one IC (that aint access). Not the same as super friends or screamers.

Who benefits from 2++ rerollables?

3++?

4++?

5++?

I suspect that the break down will look an awful lot like the current meta.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lets see the math folks. Millions of dice have been rolled.

No one is saying 2+ rerollable invulns are good.

What IS being said is that blanket banning a mechanic is not a good idea-it removes a good element from the game. One thing I and others have suggested is capping Invuln improvers at 3+ (and probably FNP at 4+) making the ABSOLUTE WORST CASE SCENARIO a 3+ rerollable by 4+, or a 1/18 chance of getting a wound if using the right (AP2 or Ignores Cover, as appropriate) weapon.

That would help balance the game without needlessly removing a good function.

Edit: Also, how in the hell does this fix all of 40k like you claim?

Mmmm. Its a one line balance. Its not gonna be rainbows and unicorns. Its the grimdark.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also... look at LVO top lists. Show me the math.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
7 out of 8 needed rerollables.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nix them. Meta shifts.

 Charistoph wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Again, the Gladius isn't crazy. Getting a one-use Ultramarine Chapter Tactic isn't broken.

Getting free transports when taking two Demi Battle-Companies is.

The Gladius is what gives the two Demi Battle Companies Free Transports. Its one of the two Gladius Special Rules.

Yes, but I can take my Gladius without those two DBC - is it still broken?

Again, it's not the full Gladius that's broken - it's taking two BDC and getting free transports. At it's base state, the Gladius isn't broken. The battle company is.

Back to the rerollablle save - in my Ultramarine army, I use no rerollable save, and rarely use free transports. In any case, I bring ten man tactical squads and assault squads, with my only grav being on two individual units - Dev Centurions, and Bikers. I have no psychic powers, and no bikerstar.

What tier is my army? It's not affected by your fix at all, and still retains it's old WDL ratio.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Again, the Gladius isn't crazy. Getting a one-use Ultramarine Chapter Tactic isn't broken.

Getting free transports when taking two Demi Battle-Companies is.

The Gladius is what gives the two Demi Battle Companies Free Transports. Its one of the two Gladius Special Rules.

Yes, but I can take my Gladius without those two DBC - is it still broken?

Again, it's not the full Gladius that's broken - it's taking two BDC and getting free transports. At it's base state, the Gladius isn't broken. The battle company is.

Back to the rerollablle save - in my Ultramarine army, I use no rerollable save, and rarely use free transports. In any case, I bring ten man tactical squads and assault squads, with my only grav being on two individual units - Dev Centurions, and Bikers. I have no psychic powers, and no bikerstar.

What tier is my army? It's not affected by your fix at all, and still retains it's old WDL ratio.

And the Battle Company only exists within the Gladius' Command Benefits. Are both Command Benefits powerful? No, just the one. And unless you are operating at a rather low points level, who wouldn't take the Battle Company with the Gladius?

Therefore, the Gladius is broken by this rule.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:


Again, the Gladius isn't crazy. Getting a one-use Ultramarine Chapter Tactic isn't broken.

Getting free transports when taking two Demi Battle-Companies is.

BDC also makes all the bikes, hqs, command squads, dreads and devastators ob.sec, and CAD doesn't.

 doktor_g wrote:
Also... look at LVO top lists. Show me the math.

Considering it's YOUR suggestion... I think the burden of proof lies upon you!

Actually fixing 40k in a mathematical sense requires work -- graphs, excel tables, testing, collaboration for feedback, etc. Then there's how many armies to balance? Not simple.

I don't see anyone who's not getting paid being willing to put in that amount of work, and I don't see a one sentence errata fixing anything either.

 doktor_g wrote:
The reason everyone is so upset is because it has been the biggest crutch / win button of the meta of the last 2 editions. If you dont have it, you are mid to bottom tier. Period.

Yet to have seen proof otherwise, other than personal attacks. Like calling me a troll.

It's possibly the way your posts seem to be coming across through text; seemingly ignoring people saying otherwise while remaining extremely headstrong that your idea is the best thing to happen to 40k. I agree it's a good start, but it's not that simple. As others have said rerollable 2++ is a huge problem that needs to go, however a rerollable 5++ is perfectly fine; as such a blanket banning of "remove all rerolls" while good at first glance becomes not so great as you look into it more. That's why I'd probably go with rerolling being removed for anything 3+ or better instead.

It removes the problem that is 2++ rerolls, but without hurting those bottom tier armies. Just a blanket ban would not see the tiers shift around, this way it may have an actual effect on it.

 doktor_g wrote:
doktor_g's 7th Ed Errata:

Invulnerable, Cover, Armor and other saves are not allowed to be re-rolled by any means whether it is by a psychic power, unique relic, innate ability or other means.

Let me try to put this in a way you might understand by using the following example:

I have a car that has bald tires, damaged rims, collapsed suspension, and a number of minor problems to do with the engine, the gearbox, the interior, etc etc etc. Obviously there are many problems to be fixed. Think of the aforementioned as an analogy to the 40K gaming system. Now: You proposed errata of removing the 'Re-Roll Mechanic of various Saves regardless of their source is like saying (for our car example) that cleaning the damaged rims will solve all the other problems the car has.

@Yoyoyo Sorry it was 6 out of 8.
LVO:
1st place - Perkins: Renegades, Screamer Star, Ordinance Tyrant
2nd place - Grant: LionsBlade, Barkstar, Ministorum Priest
3rd place - Platt: Screamers, Fatey, Magnus
4th place - Root: War convocation, Conclave
5th place - Nayden: Iyanden, RiptideWing
6th place - Leach: Corsairs, Venom Spam*
7th place - Abilez: FSE*
8th place - Curtis: Screamers, Fatey, Magnus

*no access to rerollables.

@IllumiNini: Let me put this to you in a way you can understand using the following example: If you're trying to sell a house, and you can only do one thing to increase the value/curb appeal for almost no work, money, or time would you do it? Of course you would. Incidentally, its painting the front door. Thats what this errata does. It doesnt fix the hideous wallpaper in the dinning room, or the poltergeist that haunts the place, but it nevertheless statistically increases the perceived value of the house by the buyer. I submit that this statistically flattens/broadens the meta in one sentence by taking away shenanigans disproportionately from the top tier than from the bottom.

Selling that house is a one-off deal. Sell it and you never have to deal with it again.
Having to drive to work every day with your wheels falling off. That's an ongoing issue, and needs lots of work to sort out.

Back to the OP:
Drop the re-roll to "Roll the next-best save" after a failed save.
If you have a 2++ and you roll a 1, you get to fall back on your current cover save of 4+, or 5+ armour save (or whatever).
It isn't a straight-up re-roll, and means you have to work really hard to get a 2++/2++.

For Eldar Farseers out in the open, without their invil, they're toast.
In cover, where they should be hiding, cover save if Fortune is up.
Hiding in a DA squad with an Exarch invul shield, fail the rune armour save, get a DA invul save.
etc,

@doktor_g: I see your point, but the title of your thread is: "Fixing the imbalance in 40k with a one sentence errata", the ignorance of which is supprted by your proposal. Your proposal doesn't even come close to fixing the imbalances in 40K, but is more an incredibly shallow start. I'm not arguing that the re-roll mechanic needs to be addressed, but getting rid of it isn't going to balance 40K or justify your misleading thread title.

 Howscat wrote:
Here Is my attempt to fix 40k in one sentence: Erase the formation from existence and only play with the CAD. It would not fix all of the issues by any stretch of the imagination but, it is a good place to start.

I don't really like this either.

Just say that anytime a save is re-rolled (armour, cover, invul) it can never be better than 4+.
That keeps 'Daemon of Tzeentch', 'Precognition', 'Fortune' and many other rules viable still without flat out making them useless.
Remember, these rules do not give 2++ re-rollable saves, they merely allow re-roll. It is when you combine them with unit that has, or can get 2+ saves that they become broken.
Just make the re-roll a 50/50 after the first failed roll.

-

 IllumiNini wrote:
@doktor_g: I see your point, but the title of your thread is: "Fixing the imbalance in 40k with a one sentence errata", the ignorance of which is supprted by your proposal. Your proposal doesn't even come close to fixing the imbalances in 40K, but is more an incredibly shallow start. I'm not arguing that the re-roll mechanic needs to be addressed, but getting rid of it isn't going to balance 40K or justify your misleading thread title.

How about "leveling the meta?"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:
Just say that anytime a save is re-rolled (armour, cover, invul) it can never be better than 4+.
That keeps 'Daemon of Tzeentch', 'Precognition', 'Fortune' and many other rules viable still without flat out making them useless.
Remember, these rules do not give 2++ re-rollable saves, they merely allow re-roll. It is when you combine them with unit that has, or can get 2+ saves that they become broken.
Just make the re-roll a 50/50 after the first failed roll.

-

Gaelf: thats what ITC has done. 2+ rerollable goes to 2+/4+, yet the largest 40k event in the world shows that 75% of the top lists utilize rerolls.

Leveling the meta has very little to do with your proposal. I will reiterate: I feel that the issue of re-rolls needs to be addressed, but in the grand scheme of things, fixing this machanic alone doesn't do much at all (if anything).

You're trying to fix a broken, complex system with an oversimplification. It's not going to work.

Its not perfect. i think it is a simple, easy to understand and easy to implement, elegant solution to a game with what 23 different codexes / supplements?

My goal is to weaken the top disproportionately. I still feel as if it has done so.

Perhaps you have a different idea of a one sentence errata fix?(lets say 'patch'). One sentence patch.