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What were vehicles like before hull points?

 NivlacSupreme wrote:
What were vehicles like before hull points?

You could still 1 shot them if you could penetrate the armor. A glancing hit subtracted 2 from the Vehicle Damage chart (I think). Open Top and AP1 added 1 to the roll. The 5th edition Vehicle Damage chart was (i believe):
(1)Shaken,
(2)Stunned,
(3)Weapon destroyed,
(4) Immobilized,
(5) Wrecked
(6) Assplodes!!!

If you were already immobilized and rolled it again, you changed it to Weapon Destroyed, and vice versa. If you were immobilized and no longer had weapons left, the vehicle was wrecked if you got weapon destoyed or immobilized. It typically took a lot of shots to wreck a Land Raider through glancing hits this way. Now, you only need 4 glances.

Chimera was one if the most broken units in 5th ed.

Martel732 wrote:
Chimera was one if the most broken units in 5th ed.

? I took them out with missile launcher devastators, no problem. With my Black Templars (separate codex, no devastators), I had MM dreads. THOSE were fun!

Chimeras were broken in the same sense that Scatbikes are broken.

A single one wasn't that much of an issue. But they were cheap and spammable so dealing with a horde of them was the problem.

It was hilarious whenever someone only brought one Chimera with meltavets and then got angry he lost with his suppose "broken" unit, not realizing why it was broken in the first place.

Let's not forget space wolf razorback spam either.

hobojebus wrote:
Let's not forget space wolf razorback spam either.

Screw that jazz. Remember Grey Knights and their Psybolts? every single marine had a 2-shot assault heavy bolter!

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

hobojebus wrote:
Let's not forget space wolf razorback spam either.

Screw that jazz. Remember Grey Knights and their Psybolts? every single marine had a 2-shot assault heavy bolter!

I think I just got flash backs to old Grey Knight Crowe MSU lists... Thanks for that.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
If you think Helbrutes are bad, you are not using enough of them.

They are cheap as dirt for as deadly as they are. Sure, 2 aren't that hot, try 5. Dare Mr Gorgon's Chain to come near that.

But then I've spent those points on 5 Helbrutes. And not ObSec DG Terminators. Or Helldrakes. Or Obliterators. Or indeed anything else in my Codex.

The answer to something being bad isn't to spend more points on it. That's just crazy talk.

Seriously? There's days I just don't understand you, internet. Suggesting terminators or helldrakes are better than helbrutes...

Havent used a Helbrute at all in 7th edition, which is a shame because i have a decently painted Nurgle Dreadnought.

Now that the Warband comes with Obj Secured, and the Helbrute is a cheap option, it might make its way out of the dresser drawer.

Currently I would probably take two ranged weapons and babysit on an obj until it gets immobilized or glanced out.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Havent used a Helbrute at all in 7th edition, which is a shame because i have a decently painted Nurgle Dreadnought.

Now that the Warband comes with Obj Secured, and the Helbrute is a cheap option, it might make its way out of the dresser drawer.

Currently I would probably take two ranged weapons and babysit on an obj until it gets immobilized or glanced out.

Don't give up on a fist. 5 s10 ap2 attacks on a charge - potentially with i4. And you want to pay points to exchange it for a couple useless s7 shots or something? Just camp it on an objective or march forward. It can be an effective charge deterrant in your backlines. And drops don't like helbrutes. That's the reason why they get focused down early on. Well, they'll eat some fire at least.

Helbrutes are awesome, most of you guys probably haven't even tried the mayhem pack or the murder pack, because who buys 5 helbrutes? Well i have 6 and I'll preach some truth for you guys.

A footslogging MM helbrute walking across the board is stupid, it won't do anything. Like DarkStarSabre wrote they need to be taken in numbers to pose a threat. You guys are talking about you haven't even tried. Try 5 plasma cannon helbrutes walking across the board with a Night lords HELBRUTE WARLORD with 5++ and hit and run, rampage or whichever of those awesome warlord traits you roll. Buffed with shrouding, invisibility or some other nice . So say they take a couple hullpoints, then you can choose the crazed the results for the helbutes with crazed markers, so either double tap the plasma cannons or give them fleet and rage if you're close enough to charge. The times i've run this formation they've been untouchable. Try 25, I:4, S:10, AP:2 attacks, maybe more if some of the brutes got rage. Or 5 of those S:10, AP:2 attacks challenging your WL, with rampage, re-roll failed to wound rolls of 1, hatred or whatever.

Try that then tell me how bad the Helbrute is *Micdrop*

I've tried murder pack long before the +2a buff. In 6-th. They did surprisingly good vs smashfether bike deathstar and nid flyrant + drop mc spam.
I was running:
2 melta + fist
1 Melta + flail
1 fist + hf fist
Champ fist + hf fist

Flail wasn't great and i'd probably just go 4 meltas, a couple hf and a double fist for champ now.

 koooaei wrote:
I've tried murder pack long before the +2a buff. In 6-th. They did surprisingly good vs smashfether bike deathstar and nid flyrant + drop mc spam.
I was running:
2 melta + fist
1 Melta + flail
1 fist + hf fist
Champ fist + hf fist

Flail wasn't great and i'd probably just go 4 meltas, a couple hf and a double fist for champ now.

I would go for something like that build on the mayhem pack, HF, MM and PF is good when you drop down in their face, imo the murder pack is better with some more shooty so the enemies cant just avoid CC.

Not sure if the flail is worth the points though.

My thinking was that i was running half the game anywayz. So, i didn't want to buy shooty weapons. However, i wanted to have means of popping transports before charging in - preferably exploding them to not spoil the charges with tank wrecks. And heavy flamers to help with tarpits as they still had 2 attacks back than. But now, you can easilly cut on heavy flamers.

I've also tried out mayhem pack and they failed miserably vs a mediocre ig chimera list. DS w/o scatter mitigation is just too unreliable. And than you need to roll on the crazed table which makes your brutes useless 1/3 of the time. So, you're cutting the ~50% ds success rate even further.

Murderpack is still terrible because theyre all still walking. I'd rather risk Deep Striking.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 killerpenguin wrote:
Helbrutes are awesome, most of you guys probably haven't even tried the mayhem pack or the murder pack, because who buys 5 helbrutes? Well i have 6 and I'll preach some truth for you guys.

A footslogging MM helbrute walking across the board is stupid, it won't do anything. Like DarkStarSabre wrote they need to be taken in numbers to pose a threat. You guys are talking about you haven't even tried. Try 5 plasma cannon helbrutes walking across the board with a Night lords HELBRUTE WARLORD with 5++ and hit and run, rampage or whichever of those awesome warlord traits you roll. Buffed with shrouding, invisibility or some other nice . So say they take a couple hullpoints, then you can choose the crazed the results for the helbutes with crazed markers, so either double tap the plasma cannons or give them fleet and rage if you're close enough to charge. The times i've run this formation they've been untouchable. Try 25, I:4, S:10, AP:2 attacks, maybe more if some of the brutes got rage. Or 5 of those S:10, AP:2 attacks challenging your WL, with rampage, re-roll failed to wound rolls of 1, hatred or whatever.

Try that then tell me how bad the Helbrute is *Micdrop*

Seeing as Plasma Cannons are bad in any number I wouldn't care if someone had 5 or 10 of them.
Invisibility makes anything good too.

So yeah any non-Mayhem Helbrute is garbage.

Generally, what happens is your opponent drops a droppod near the helbrute and has a squad with a melta-gun and a gravcannon climb out of it and burn the dreadnought in 1 turn.

Or at least that seems to be what happens to mine in each game.

they need to just give CSM drop pods or allow their dreds to deep strike naturally. the 4 attacks is nice though, in a game a few months back I managed to wreck a shadowsword with one. forget the formation name but cultist for inv save

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Seeing as Plasma Cannons are bad in any number I wouldn't care if someone had 5 or 10 of them.
Invisibility makes anything good too.

So yeah any non-Mayhem Helbrute is garbage.

I think plasma cannons are great, but if plasma doesnt work for you, how about lascannons?

Invisibility is great yes, and how often can you make a (lets use lascannons in this example) 625+ point unit invisible? or if I get shrouding of, they get shrouded and stealth, if i shield them with a unit of nurgle spawn and my psyker they have 2+ cover.

TBH, Hellbrutes are pretty decent in my experience using them. Of course, that all depends on who you're dealing with. Sometimes a Terminator squad can get a bit more done.

 killerpenguin wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Seeing as Plasma Cannons are bad in any number I wouldn't care if someone had 5 or 10 of them.
Invisibility makes anything good too.

So yeah any non-Mayhem Helbrute is garbage.

I think plasma cannons are great, but if plasma doesnt work for you, how about lascannons?

Invisibility is great yes, and how often can you make a (lets use lascannons in this example) 625+ point unit invisible? or if I get shrouding of, they get shrouded and stealth, if i shield them with a unit of nurgle spawn and my psyker they have 2+ cover.

Plasma Cannons are garbage so long as small blasts are garbage. This will be an undisputed fact unless your opponent only ever has models touching each other's bases.
Lascannons have too low of a rate of fire for the points.

Also I could just using a Cabal to make a Spawnstar invisible, or Houndstar, or even a Chaos Knight. Why am I ever going to target a unit that moves 6" a turn, and one that, if a failed casting, will die if the opponent decides to go after them?

A big part of the problem with helbrutes is that non-grav imperial heavy weapons, and by extension, CSM heavy weapons are mostly non-viable in 7th ed. It also doesn't help that AV 12 is the AV that everyone I know builds around.

This and lack of drop pods combines for a bad time.

Youn wrote:
Generally, what happens is your opponent drops a droppod near the helbrute and has a squad with a melta-gun and a gravcannon climb out of it and burn the dreadnought in 1 turn.

Or at least that seems to be what happens to mine in each game.

So? What do you do with the other 4 helbrutes that are still alive?

If I was in charge of developing rules for a "7.5" edition. I'd make a minor tweek to the vehicle rules but I think one that could potentially be a meta changer. "vehicles only take hull point damage from a penatrating attack" none of this glancing to death with autocannons BS.

Hellbrutes and Dreadnoughts being walker vehicles are an odd duck. An interesting contradiction. Due to being (relatively) lightly armored walkers, they are super vulnerable to dedicated tank weaponry, such as Melta, Laz cannons, Grav and especially haywire. However, walkers are quite good weapon platforms and when kitted out for melee, dreads/brutes are shockingly good at melee.

I always use dreads, because I love them. I think they are cool and fun, but not particularly competitive (upper wise, casual, still good [imho]).

A Hellbrute, walking along, or guarding a squad or point is intimidating. Guns and 4-6 S10 AP 1-2 I4 melee attacks will give just about anything pause.

Infact they are super good at support roles and take fire away from other more fragile targets. It never fails if I drop pod or outflank some dreads along with other tanks or infantry, even dedicated anti tank/infantry, your opponent will always shoot the dreads first. Because they know, it shoots well, and it murders almost anything in melee.

I recommend popping smoke, and/or screening them to give them some extra survivability. Also psykers have some mean tricks to make them much more resilient.

Didn't helbrutes give up smoking?

Gotta bubble wrap them in infantry (which also helps keep them out of melta+ range.

Helbrute with a 4++ is a game changer shame about the Warpsmith tax, though he makes his maulerfiend buddies scary after he dies (if they're still alive too)

Walkers that get saves (Cover, Invulnerable etc) are 10x better than those who dont, because they can save against the massive amounts of Glancing hits that 7th Currently has