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wow been a while since I posted something.............anyway I have a bit of a query and I thought I post it in here.

Okay as we know in the CSM and KDK codexes the Helbrutes have 2 attacks and aren't really that much of a bother nowadays.....well I was checking the errata for CSM this morning and it has the following

ERRATA Various – Helbrute Increase the Attacks (A) characteristic of the Helbrute by 2 on all appropriate profiles.

now I was confused by this and I checked the KDK errata aswell and it was in there aswell

my question is this of course......do Helbrutes have 4 attacks base??!?

hopefully this is in the right thread, if not sorry about posting this in here

Yes, the errata corrects the stat in the codex. They're still not great though.

basicly GW updated the stat profile for the helbrute to be on par with those of vnaiulla marine dreads

Basically every Marine codex that was not vanilla SM got their dreads attacks bumped by 2 to be on par.

Dreads are still not ZOMFG OP. We haven't seen an influx of dreads since that errata. We didn't see an influx of them with the SM Codex.

Dreads are still bad for the usual reasons that dreads are bad and the Helbrute is worse as it lacks defensive options (like Smoke Launchers).

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Basically every Marine codex that was not vanilla SM got their dreads attacks bumped by 2 to be on par.

Dreads are still not ZOMFG OP. We haven't seen an influx of dreads since that errata. We didn't see an influx of them with the SM Codex.

Dreads are still bad for the usual reasons that dreads are bad and the Helbrute is worse as it lacks defensive options (like Smoke Launchers).

It also doesn't have a cheap drop pod option that could let it be semi-threatening. It's just bad in this edition..

They are crap you have to buy multiple to stand any chance of getting one across the board.

But that's dreadnoughts in general in 6th & 7th.

The Helbrute isn't a great choice, but the formations aren't bad - Especially with the various legions.

ah I see, so even though the helbrutes now have 4 attacks base they're still not worth it :-/

god dammit all why do CSM's suck so much :-( I remember a time when they were a legitimate army, a fun army to play with and a challenge to anyone you play. Now it's all one massive joke isn't it, they've been toned down to the point that it is ridiculous to even think about playing with them

Do they need Drop Pods when you can just use a Mayhem Pack to guarantee they get into the opponents area?

Loopstah wrote:
Do they need Drop Pods when you can just use a Mayhem Pack to guarantee they get into the opponents area?

Pods have inertial guidance making it easier to land where you want them
Mayhem pack also makes them roll on that "Crazed" chart every turn meaning they do random stuff instead of what you intend them to do and show their rears to the enemy in close combat.

I found that the bonus attacks really help the Helbrute out, making me much more likely to run one. It tends to be more survivable than an unsupported Terminator squad, which isn't saying a ton. It's mostly low cost, making it a helpful addition to a Chaos Warband if you're trying to go for something low-cost.

In other words, it's a good support unit backing up something else. It's strong enough that it can't be ignored in close combat, but weak enough that it's not a primary target, meaning that it tends to just work at denying the area it can threaten rather than killing things on its own.

Dreadnoughts are just too easy to glance to death I'd love to run them but they pop before half the games done.

5th had vehicles that were too strong and gw overreacted invalidating lots of options with hull points.

oh I almost forgot they have been dropped in points by 5pts meaning a bog standard Helbrute with multi melta and power fist is now 100pts instead of 105pts......

in truth I do feel the helbrutes could do with a bit of an improvement such as maybe giving them dedicated to insert chaos god here with some bonuses (Rage for Khorne and rampage if you roll blood rage for example) and yes a proper drop pod

 GentlemanGuy wrote:
ah I see, so even though the helbrutes now have 4 attacks base they're still not worth it :-/

god dammit all why do CSM's suck so much :-( I remember a time when they were a legitimate army, a fun army to play with and a challenge to anyone you play. Now it's all one massive joke isn't it, they've been toned down to the point that it is ridiculous to even think about playing with them

All Dreadnaughts are quite bad, Hellbrutes aren't the worst Walkers and have some good formations. CSM are in a decent place now compared to where they where before Traitor Legions. Other factions are in a far worse place than CSM are now.

If you have the cash or conversions run 3 helbrutes in Dreadclaws, and 3 more in a mayhem pack formation, preferably with a comm relay. Also get the forgeworld rules for ferrum infernus, contemptor and sonic dreadnoughts and use those as well.
With the current meta there's heaps of ways to wreck your precious av12 robots, but if you can get a significant number of them dropped in your opponents face and assaulting turn 2/3, you have a much better chance. Anti tank melee units are mostly ignored for more range and melee units with volume of attacks, which means your bots will be tearing most opponents apart with little retaliation.
The important thing is saturation. Any troops you bring should be in rhinos, bring as many Dreadclaws as you can, put a comm relay in a bastion, give your opponent nothing to shoot at without wasting their antitank shots.

 Badablack wrote:
If you have the cash or conversions run 3 helbrutes in Dreadclaws, and 3 more in a mayhem pack formation, preferably with a comm relay. Also get the forgeworld rules for ferrum infernus, contemptor and sonic dreadnoughts and use those as well.
With the current meta there's heaps of ways to wreck your precious av12 robots, but if you can get a significant number of them dropped in your opponents face and assaulting turn 2/3, you have a much better chance. Anti tank melee units are mostly ignored for more range and melee units with volume of attacks, which means your bots will be tearing most opponents apart with little retaliation.
The important thing is saturation. Any troops you bring should be in rhinos, bring as many Dreadclaws as you can, put a comm relay in a bastion, give your opponent nothing to shoot at without wasting their antitank shots.

that sounds like a fun idea, have fancied running a metal avalanche sort of army lol

The real change the errata brought was that the vanilla helbrute is now far more useful than trying to make it a dedicated CC machine. Since an extra weapon only gives you +1 attack at the expense of robbing you of your shooting, it's a lot better to keep your gun, especially since 1/3rd of the Crazed Table requires you to shoot anyways.

While not gamechanging, get the formation with the deepstriking helbrutes and arm them all with multi-meltas and fists, and watch your opponent shout expletives at you for annoying him (don't actually expect them to do much, but it will distract the opponent assuming they don't mishap).

hobojebus wrote:
Dreadnoughts are just too easy to glance to death I'd love to run them but they pop before half the games done.

5th had vehicles that were too strong and gw overreacted invalidating lots of options with hull points.

IMHO they need to make hull points only something that get subtracted when you PEN a vehicle. none of this glancing a MBT to death with an autocanon

hobojebus wrote:
Dreadnoughts are just too easy to glance to death I'd love to run them but they pop before half the games done.

5th had vehicles that were realistically implemented and well balanced and gw overreacted by nerfing the ever living gak out of them with numerous nerfs and with hull points.

I fixed that for you. 5th ed vehicles where well balanced and implemented, with only one or two notable exceptions being really over powered (looking at you here 35 point "i remobilise myself each turn lolz" Rhino).

I advocate the formation of 5 squadronned helbrutes. Buff them up with invis and they're a surprisingly killy force.

Deepstriking helbrutes are awful. Too random with not so much good stuff going on for them. Deepstrike is fun and all but you need a LOT of lucky rolls to make it worthwhile.

Make one the alpha in that Daemon Engine formation and it'll have a 4+ invulnerable. And like most combat walkers it beats the crap out of most monstrous creatures.

They're only 100 points (errated down from 100). You shouldn't expect wonders.

Same problem all AV 12 walkers have in 7th; speed and hull points. Too slow to be CC capable (and no drop pod like the loyalists) and too much str.6 and things like grav mean it is super easy to strip hull points.

Too bad to because the helbrute kit is one of the best looking chaos kits GW has produced.

If you think Helbrutes are bad, you are not using enough of them.

They are cheap as dirt for as deadly as they are. Sure, 2 aren't that hot, try 5. Dare Mr Gorgon's Chain to come near that.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
If you think Helbrutes are bad, you are not using enough of them.

They are cheap as dirt for as deadly as they are. Sure, 2 aren't that hot, try 5. Dare Mr Gorgon's Chain to come near that.

But then I've spent those points on 5 Helbrutes. And not ObSec DG Terminators. Or Helldrakes. Or Obliterators. Or indeed anything else in my Codex.

The answer to something being bad isn't to spend more points on it. That's just crazy talk.

Indeed its just throwing good money after bad.

Just run them in Mayhem Pack. Problem solved. It actually works okay thanks to everyone having 4 attacks now. Sure the T3 charge at earliest can be an issue but you get that extra durability and potential Melta strike.

Wait a sec...

So a two-armed Dread/Helbrute gets 4 melee attacks, while a 4-armed Carnifex only gets 3? Am I missing something?

 Stormonu wrote:
Wait a sec...

So a two-armed Dread/Helbrute gets 4 melee attacks, while a 4-armed Carnifex only gets 3? Am I missing something?

Two-armed dread gets 5

 Stormonu wrote:
Wait a sec...

So a two-armed Dread/Helbrute gets 4 melee attacks, while a 4-armed Carnifex only gets 3? Am I missing something?

speed. if the carnifex is supposed to just move slower... it'd make sense. when one compares their inits that does seem to bear it out

 master of ordinance wrote:

hobojebus wrote:
Dreadnoughts are just too easy to glance to death I'd love to run them but they pop before half the games done.

5th had vehicles that were realistically implemented and well balanced and gw overreacted by nerfing the ever living gak out of them with numerous nerfs and with hull points.

I fixed that for you. 5th ed vehicles where well balanced and implemented, with only one or two notable exceptions being really over powered (looking at you here 35 point "i remobilise myself each turn lolz" Rhino).

Eh... Not really? Maybe for certain armies with plenty of Anti-tank, but for many players who could only get mid-strength attacks and had no way of getting AP1 or other good armor pen choices, tanks were practically impossible to deal with. I played Orks. I'm not sure I ever managed to actually kill a monilith during the entire edition.