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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




So, warning, this is going to be something of a negative post, but I'm putting this here because I honestly want to be wrong, I want someone to tell me what I'm missing here, because so far I really like Shadow War, except for one big issue. I've gotten several games in now as Harlequins, Chaos, and Tau, playing against several other armies each time. And I have to say... I feel really bad for anyone that wants to play Tau. They get almost no choices, no real benefits, and feel like their rules were added at the last minute without any real forethought or testing.

Tau are supposed to be entirely shooting focused, yet they have one of the shortest range basic weapons, on par with the shotgun, lack access to the red dot and telescopic sights. Their unique piece of equipment in the marker light is not really an improvement on the photo-visor, just different. Aside from have a strength 5 -2 armor gun they have nothing going for them. Even the drones aren't great. One puts them up to par with most other factions on range while within three inches of it, and one is actually useless, I think. The grave one subtracts one from movement before doubling, but only within six inches of it. So... If a model has movement four or higher, such as every model in the game, it can still be reached with a charge.


So far I've really liked the game, and all the other factions seem to be actually pretty well balanced against the others, but the Tau seem to have nothing good going for them. They shoot worse than most, fight worse than everyone, and aren't really all that cheap.

For example, if you compare the Troopers of the Tau and Guard, the Guard gets +1 WS, +1 BS, +1 I, for the same price and same armor. It wouldn't bother me as much if they had access to the same sort of upgrades, but they have almost no choices. One pistol, one basic weapon, no melee weapons, one non-offensive grenade, two special weapons, and then only the most basic of misc. gear; clip harness, photo-visor, reload, and markerlight. Speaking os special weapons, I find it ridiculous that they want me to spend 120 points on a rail rifle, while Scouts spend 40 on their sniper rifle, and the Tau one gets out-ranged by a bolter with a telescopic sight. The person I was playing against was really confused when I told him about that after he asked why I wasn't using my sniper rifle to shoot back at his bolter scout shooting me from 35". And that was true for everyone I played against. Each and every one of them was surprised by what the Tau could and couldn't do, and none of them ever once really felt threatened. That changed immediately when I switched to the other factions I brought with me, and the games ended up being very tense and fun, with both players hanging on every single dice roll.


Which brings me back to the beginning, has anyone played against Tau and felt like they were in danger? Has anyone played with Tau and done well? Or should I just accept that they are the kill team you play if you really, really want a challenge, and don't want to do any conversions or customization?
   
Made in au
Infiltrating Broodlord





Yeah tau are kinda like the GSC..

You need to move forward hugging terrain and using Hide as much as possible.

Tau really could of done with a option for Drones to be in the Kill team.

but it is ironic that the long range race of 40k is so short ranged in Shadow War
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut






 AndrewGPaul wrote:
 Dravis wrote:
Shotgun comes with both shells as standard.
When you fail an ammo roll it's for that ammo only, so a shotgun could still shoot with the other ammo.


Not true; the weapon is useless for the rest of the game, not just a single ammo type. Same goes for grenade launchers.


Yeah, saw the actual wording, no separate ammo rolls for the shotgun, but scatter ignores cover so that's good.
There are some types of ammo that still get an additional ammo roll for base ammo, the Chaos Inferno Bolts, but that seems to be the exception rather then standard for all ammo types.

   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




GodDamUser wrote:
Yeah tau are kinda like the GSC..

You need to move forward hugging terrain and using Hide as much as possible.

Tau really could of done with a option for Drones to be in the Kill team.

but it is ironic that the long range race of 40k is so short ranged in Shadow War


I'm fine with short range armies, I really enjoyed playing Harlequins and their longest range gun is 16", on a pistol. But at the same time, look at the differences between Tau and GS cults. 4 pistol choices, 3 basic weapon choices, 3 special weapon choices, and three heavy weapon choices, along with several melee weapon choices. You can actually have some variety in your models, rather than having everyone the same unless you want to double or triple their cost. It's not just about how they play but also the fun in converting, painting, and creating characters. That's half the fun of skirmish games like this. Honestly I think that bothers me more than anything, it wouldn't matter if the one choice they had was the best possible choice, it's still not really a choice. The biggest decision you have when building a Tau list is whether you want to add specialists or not. There's not really any chance for creativity there.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/10 03:28:29


 
   
Made in au
Infiltrating Broodlord





That's fair enough..

But the Tau generally don't have a lot of variety in their foot troops
   
Made in us
Deranged Necron Destroyer




Out of my Mind

Deadawake1347 wrote:
Which brings me back to the beginning, has anyone played against Tau and felt like they were in danger? Has anyone played with Tau and done well? Or should I just accept that they are the kill team you play if you really, really want a challenge, and don't want to do any conversions or customization?


I'll agree that they're not great, but they're not terrible either.
- Markerlights don't need to hit, and aren't heavy. Their range is outside of most Troops weapons, so they're not bad on Cadets who are sitting in the back trying to survive for promotion. Having that cover removed for any of the Tau shooting at an enemy is huge. Even if just to pin the opponent.
- The Accelerator Drone was used as both a shield as well as a range extender for that first turn or two. Being the closest model, we're forced to eliminate it first, in which case it's done it's job, because after that, they'll be back in the 18" range. Again, not a threat but still irritating that we have to get that thing out of the way before we can even get at the guns.
- Their Armor save isn't great, but against softer opponents, getting pinned will probably occur more often than not. The Leaders ability to allow tests up to 12" away can punish Tau opponents if they don't manage to down them.
- Allowing a free Overwatch shot without being on Overwatch is just handy, but only against opponents that will be charging.

Not entirely disagreeing with you, but just providing an alternate view is all. I think they'll be using the Hiding rule more than other lists. Markerlight/Specialst teams should be able to bottleneck the opponent into the shorter range guns.



Current Armies
(40k) Necron - On Hiatus
Shadowblades - Working on it

 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 Akar wrote:
Deadawake1347 wrote:
Which brings me back to the beginning, has anyone played against Tau and felt like they were in danger? Has anyone played with Tau and done well? Or should I just accept that they are the kill team you play if you really, really want a challenge, and don't want to do any conversions or customization?


I'll agree that they're not great, but they're not terrible either.
- Markerlights don't need to hit, and aren't heavy. Their range is outside of most Troops weapons, so they're not bad on Cadets who are sitting in the back trying to survive for promotion. Having that cover removed for any of the Tau shooting at an enemy is huge. Even if just to pin the opponent.
- The Accelerator Drone was used as both a shield as well as a range extender for that first turn or two. Being the closest model, we're forced to eliminate it first, in which case it's done it's job, because after that, they'll be back in the 18" range. Again, not a threat but still irritating that we have to get that thing out of the way before we can even get at the guns.
- Their Armor save isn't great, but against softer opponents, getting pinned will probably occur more often than not. The Leaders ability to allow tests up to 12" away can punish Tau opponents if they don't manage to down them.
- Allowing a free Overwatch shot without being on Overwatch is just handy, but only against opponents that will be charging.

Not entirely disagreeing with you, but just providing an alternate view is all. I think they'll be using the Hiding rule more than other lists. Markerlight/Specialst teams should be able to bottleneck the opponent into the shorter range guns.




You are more than welcome to disagree. As I said, I'm actually hoping to be proven wrong here. The problem with using the drone as a shield essentially is that it's the same cost as a new recruit without upgrades, and just as effective. In my experience during the game I played it in against guard, they killed it with a hotshot lasgun from 30+" away, before it actually even mattered, then made me come to them. And that's honestly the biggest problem the Tau face on the table. They're wholly dedicated to shooting, they will only win a melee combat in the most extraordinary of circumstances, yet they have to go to the enemy, not the other way around. They're fragile, inaccurate, practically auto-lose in CC. Orks of all kill teams can win in a shooting match against them. With red dot sights an ork has the same effective BS, longer range, and gets more accurate than the Tau at 12".

I feel that really needs repeating. At 12", an ork[i] has a better chance of hitting his target than a Tau. That doesn't strike you as not being right?

I played maybe a half dozen games with Tau over the weekend trying to get them to work, and never once did I have a bottleneck situation, as the enemy never really had to come to me. Aside from Harlequins, and that was a very short game that ended fairly predictably as I got one round of shooting before they charged. To be honest I feel it's rather telling that your best argument in favor is basically, "it can be annoying to have to kill a harmless drone before killing the rest."
   
Made in au
Infiltrating Broodlord





Maybe you are not using enough terrain..

That sounds to be the big issue there

Key rule to remember is that you can never have too much terrain


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/10 04:13:53


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




I agree, we used what came in the box plus extra from the store, and I still felt we needed more. Hiding is also extremely important, especially to survive long enough to get a shot off.
   
Made in au
Infiltrating Broodlord





Yeah.. I personally wouldn't consider 4 lots of the Box terrain to be enough for a game


Automatically Appended Next Post:
having a look at the Tau list..

All of their weapons are high impact.. so you can pin everyone.. while it doesn't overly help against horde.. the ability to pin everyone is mega useful

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/10 04:39:15


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






How so? Most of the Tau weapons are S5, and High Impact only applies to weapons of S7 or greater (such as the Fusion Gun). Also, High Impact only makes it easier to take models reduced to 0 Wounds Out of Action; it has no effect on Pinning. Any weapon can "pin everyone".
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran






Lots of guys at our club had a SW intro night on friday went pretty well.

I kinda knew the rules so did an intro with my dire avengers they can be pretty devestating with all that sustained fire.

Was awesome one of my guys got flesh wounded twice! was the ardest eldar ever, proceeded to stumble around the rest of the game needed 5's to hit.

Exarchs are pretty good too, i managed to roll 7 1's out of 9 to wounds in two rounds of CC still managed to win

also managed to roll a three and have a suriken catapul run out of ammo, this plucky eldar decided his best role would then be to stand in the open infront of the other guys in cover to take hits for the team
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut






High impact is S7 or more, this does effect pinning for tyranids, and maybe some other models that normally ignore pinning.
So the Tau specialists only really.
I think Tau would be tough to play, relying mostly on defensive fire and hiding.
I would like to see a Tau Firewarrior team, mostly because I've already have one painted up, they could have rules for the turret thing similar the Eldar grav platform.

The team that seems really strong on paper is scouts, multiple toxin snipers sounds strong. Would have to them is action though.
   
Made in au
Infiltrating Broodlord





yeah sorry I was cray thought i read 5 somewhere...
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






 Dravis wrote:
High impact is S7 or more, this does effect pinning for tyranids, and maybe some other models that normally ignore pinning.


Ah, so it's a rule for Tyranids (and the Patriarch), not part of the High Impact rules as such.
   
Made in gb
Sneaky Kommando





Dorset, England

I feel really bad for anyone that wants to play Tau.

I know what you mean, why wouldn't GW put Kroot Carnivores in the Tau team? They are the coolest thing about the Tau empire!

So what Ork models should I be creating for when I get the rules? Are slugga boys good? Which specialist are the most useful?

Cheers
Kroem
   
Made in us
Witch Hunter Undercover in a Cult







Because it isn't the Tau team, it's the Fire Caste team.

I've discovered working with Mordheim that the worst possible thing to do to a Mordheim/Necromunda-scale warband is to try and condense an entire Codex into it, you end up with something that's either too generalized to do anything well or does everything better than anyone else (e.g. Mordheim Dwarves, too tough, too choppy, and too shooty all at once because someone decided to try and staple Slayers, Engineers, and Ironbreakers together into one warband).

Victoria est autem vita.  
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 AnomanderRake wrote:
Because it isn't the Tau team, it's the Fire Caste team.

I've discovered working with Mordheim that the worst possible thing to do to a Mordheim/Necromunda-scale warband is to try and condense an entire Codex into it, you end up with something that's either too generalized to do anything well or does everything better than anyone else (e.g. Mordheim Dwarves, too tough, too choppy, and too shooty all at once because someone decided to try and staple Slayers, Engineers, and Ironbreakers together into one warband).


I agree, actually. They shouldn't try to cram an entire codex into a kill team, but there needs to be some variety. Right now it's far too narrow. It's not even a Fire Caste kill tea, it's a Pathfinder team. Now, if you could take Fire Warriors and Pathfinders as the specialists that would open up more options, like the pulse rifle and pulse blaster, combat armor, gun drones, the turret, an offensive grenade, etc. But right now the most choices they have is in misc. And they have very few options there. There's almost no variety because they stuck to the single box plan with a unit that doesn't work well for. Imagine if they had done a Crisis Suit kill team instead? It would have been a similar set up to Tyranids, with few models but a lot of different options.
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran






Ha weird how things turn out, dug out my old necro gang and converting it over its more or less 1000pts!

Veteran Sergeant 160
Bolt Pistol, Sword

Guardsman 80
Laspistol, Sword

Vet guardsman 85
Lasgun

Vet guardsman 85
Lasgun

Vet guardsman 85
Lasgun

Vet guardsman 100
Lasgun, Hotshot

Vet guardsman 80
Shotgun

Special Operative 160
Grenade Launcher (Frag), Camo

Special Operative 165
Meltagun
[Thumb - IMAG6247.jpg]

   
Made in ie
Irked Necron Immortal





Hey Akar thank you for your post about Necrons in SWA ans SWA in general. I would give you a detailed reply but I am not on a computer so might add one once I can.

However I changed up my list and was wondering what you thought.

Spoiler:

SWA Necron Kill Team (We're Back)

Leader

Appointed Immortal [275pts]: Gauss blaster, Phase-shifter

Troopers

Immortal [190pts]: Photo-visor, Tesla carbine

Immortal [185pts]: Gauss blaster, Phase-shifter

Immortal [185pts]: Gauss blaster, Phase-shifter

Specialists

Deathmark [160pts]: Synaptic Disintegrator

Total: [995pts]

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/11 01:36:24


necrons - 2500+

Admech - 1500+  
   
Made in us
Human Auxiliary to the Empire




I think the Tau team should have options from striker, breacher, and pathfinder teams - that'd give them a lot more customisation. More guns to choose from, armour upgrades, maybe even support turrets as a choice for specialists.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






It might be more appropriate to have separate Striker, breacher and pathfinder Kill Teams - perhaps with Special Operatives from the other teams as a bit of cross support.
   
Made in us
Wicked Canoptek Wraith




So for my Kill Team I decided to go back to my first army I played, Necrons. GSC looked really tempting but I haven't touched my undead robots in a while.
Spoiler:
1000pts
Appointed Immortal 275
Gauss Blaster. Phase-Shifter

Immortal 185
Gauss Blaster, Phase-Shifter

Immortal 190
Tesla, Photo-Visor

Immortal 190
Tesla, Photo-Visor

Deathmark 150
Synaptic disintegrator
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 AndrewGPaul wrote:
It might be more appropriate to have separate Striker, breacher and pathfinder Kill Teams - perhaps with Special Operatives from the other teams as a bit of cross support.

The problem with that though is that it leaves the others as Pathfinders are now; with no options. They have no melee weapon options, one pistol, one basic weapon, two special weapons, no heavy weapons, and a whopping four options for misc. gear. If they combines Pathfinders, Warriors, and Breachers you'd at least have some options in how to build your team.
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut






Deadawake1347 wrote:
 AndrewGPaul wrote:
It might be more appropriate to have separate Striker, breacher and pathfinder Kill Teams - perhaps with Special Operatives from the other teams as a bit of cross support.

The problem with that though is that it leaves the others as Pathfinders are now; with no options. They have no melee weapon options, one pistol, one basic weapon, two special weapons, no heavy weapons, and a whopping four options for misc. gear. If they combines Pathfinders, Warriors, and Breachers you'd at least have some options in how to build your team.


I think a separate Firewarrior team is viable. Use the Eldar guardian grav platform rules for the Missile turret with a designated operator, having SMS shooting targets out of LoS would be cool, though maybe limit it to targets designated by a markerlight.
Include the breacher gun, gives a firewarrior 3 gun options.
I would like to see Tau be able to take Kroot as troopers.
I was disappointed that Tau can't throw their grenades, should've used the rules for Photon flare from Necromunda, also Pulse carbines should be able to take a grenade launcher attachment.
   
Made in us
Bounding Black Templar Assault Marine





My current team:

Aspiring Champion-
Mark of Nurgle
Bolt Pistol

Gunner
Mark of Nurgle
Heavy Bolter
Camo gear

3x Chaos Marines
Bolt Pistol
Mark of Nurgle

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/13 05:21:43


 
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Calculating Commissar





Gone-to-ground in the craters of Coventry

 Latro_ wrote:
Whats the error in the stat line for the catapult?

I think he's referring to the +1 to hit for Guardian catapults, but no + for Avenger catapults.

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"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing." - George Bernard Shaw (probably)
Clubs around Coventry, UK 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran






 Skinnereal wrote:
 Latro_ wrote:
Whats the error in the stat line for the catapult?

I think he's referring to the +1 to hit for Guardian catapults, but no + for Avenger catapults.


prob intentional... they have different ranges.
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Calculating Commissar





Gone-to-ground in the craters of Coventry

 Latro_ wrote:
prob intentional... they have different ranges.
There's only 2" in it now, for 5 points.
Guardians are now 0-8-16, and avengers are 0-9-18.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/04/13 12:52:51


Eternal Crusade Referral code: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/655562.page#8132932 - Get free points when you sign up
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"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing." - George Bernard Shaw (probably)
Clubs around Coventry, UK 
   
Made in us
Liberated Grot Land Raida




Yeah TBH I think GW might have limited the scope of this game a *little* much. Fire Warrior troopers (with the new kit's 3 basic wargear options) with Pathfinder specialists and Drones in place of Recruits (with the stipulation that drones can never gain advancements) would have been a nice, varied, interesting kill team.

They really needed to get the Necron/Eldar treatment because of the lack of options in their basic unit. On certain kill teams (Guard, DE, Orks) they were able to make up for the lack of basic variety by adding new rules to things that were just aesthetic options in the original kits. With the Necrons and Eldar they went the option of including a couple more kit boxes in to make up for the lack of variety. Tau really could have used that.

There were a few missteps in the setup of this game. Not as many as most GW projects, but a few. Most I think can be chalked up to GW thinking this was gonna be just another one-off like Gangs of Comorragh but getting enough demand from their customer base for a whole secondary game system.

You could easily double the current rulebook adding Genestealer Acolytes, DE Kabalites, Tau Fire Warriors, Eldar Storm Guardians, Eldar Aspect Warrior Specialists, Tyranid Genestealers/broodlords, Assault and Tactical Marines, Deathwatch Veterans, Scions, Catachans with Ogryn Specialists, and so many many more variants into the main game.
   
 
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