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Made in gb
Been Around the Block




Ok, so a little update.


Is Fear rolled before Overwatch is taken or is Overwatch taken first? I cant seem to find a ruling on this.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut






Fear rule states that when a fighter is charged they must take the test - so my reading is after charging movement is complete.
Overwatch can only be used during the movement phase, so my reading is Overwatch goes first.
As soon as you've declared the charge, they declare firing from overwatch at any time during the move, then test for fear after the charge is completed.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/21 07:02:55


 
   
Made in au
Infiltrating Broodlord





 Dravis wrote:
Fear rule states that when a fighter is charged they must take the test - so my reading is after charging movement is complete.



but if you are the charger it is done before
because if you fail you dont charge
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut






GodDamUser wrote:
 Dravis wrote:
Fear rule states that when a fighter is charged they must take the test - so my reading is after charging movement is complete.



but if you are the charger it is done before
because if you fail you dont charge


That's correct, I just didn't think that Harlequins would be sitting on Overwatch, but I'm sure there could be some situation that would require it.
   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block




Ok, so I've been looking through the rules looking for loopholes.

In answer to the questions above. I think it may be rare, but Harlies with Nuero or Fusion would be VERY dangerous on overwatch.
We can choose to fire at close range meaning +2 to hit, +1 with the overwatch modifier and BS5 on our Vituosos. Sounds scary, providing only 1 unit attempts a charge or to move close.

Anyway, onto Tau.

So from my reading, and agreed above. Fear is done AFTER Overwatch. Meaning he will always be able to overwatch me on the charge.
However, there are some more things that play in our favour.

The wording of Overwatch specifically states that it uses your LAST movement phase to determine for running modifier or not.
Scenario :

Turn 3 - I run my Virtuoso
Turn 4 - I charge my Virtuoso - Tau has a -3 to hit, -2 for Running last turn and -1 for Overwatch.

Also, if you set it up correctly, you can force them to take initiative tests to even fire Overwatch!

Rule that applies : Fleeting

If a unit moves from an out of sight position to an out of sight position then the overwatching player must take an initiative test to see if they were fast enough to fire.
So this doesnt need to be Full Cover to Full Cover. It could also be from a position where they are not 'spotted'.
It can be Full Cover to out of his 90deg arc. Ie, no longer has line of sight.

See image below.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also on another note.

Im cosidering an opening list of :

Troupe Master -

4x Virtuoso

No upg for 1st mission
I can fully upg 1 per mission won or spend a cache.

Think its viable rather than forcing cache spends for more units later with.

Troupe Master
Fusion/H-Blade

Virtuoso
Neuro/Embrace

Virtuoso
Neuro
H/Blade

Means Im forced to spend a cache for more bodies immediately.
[Thumb - Overwatch.png]
Overwatch Scenario

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/04/21 07:53:20


 
   
Made in se
Slaanesh Chosen Marine Riding a Fiend




Uppsala, Sweden

It sure seems like you have a very good learning curve!

Good luck. I look forward to hearing about the re-match :-)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
About those fear/charge/overwatch rules, they are indeed unclearly written and open for various conflicting interpretations.

The good news is that the biggest facebook group for SWA did a serious collection of FAQ-worthy questions, including this one. GW were very grateful that we did their quality assurance and playtesting for them, and promised to get back with answers in an FAQ.

Link to the post.
https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=10154886948715129&id=1575682476085719

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/21 08:12:17


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut






The running modifier only counts the current turn.
Actual wording: " When determining whether or not a target of overwatch fire is running, the fighter's move that turn is used rather than that of their previous turn."

The other tactic of forcing initiative test looks good.
   
Made in se
Slaanesh Chosen Marine Riding a Fiend




Uppsala, Sweden

mcsheehy wrote:

The wording of Overwatch specifically states that it uses your LAST movement phase to determine for running modifier or not.


I'm not sure I agree with that interpretation.

The regular shooting rules says:
-1 Overwatch: The shooter is firing at a target whilst on overwatch (se Overwatch, pg 36)
-1 Charging: The shooter is firing at a target that is charging them
-1 Running: The target ran in their previous movement phase.

However the fourth paragraph on pg 37 says:
"When determining whether or not a target of overwatch fire is running, the fighters move that turn is used rather than that of their previous turn."

And Prismatic Blur says
"If a fighter with this ability ran in their previous movement phase, enemy fighters suffer a -2 hit modifier instead of only -1."
Even with this bad wording, I'd say the prismatic blur modifier is _instead_ of the -1 for running target. And for overwatch "running target" is dependent on the ongoing movement phase. And charging is not running.

So I would say that a Tau that recieves a charge will suffer -1 from Overwatch fire and -1 from being charged. But it doesn't suffer an additional -2 from Prismatic Blur, since it wouldn't suffer -1 for running target.

A Tau that uses Supporting Fire to assist would only suffer -1 from Overwatch. (As a bonus they would not need to worry about the silly fear/charge/overwatch rules.)

I am also a bit curious about what happens if a nearby Tau is on Overwatch _and_ can do Supporting fire.
Can they fire twice, first with Overwatch then with Supporting Fire? Probably not.
Will shooting Supporting Fire cause them to loose Overwatch. Maybe.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut






Tentatively I'd say no to the first and yes to the second.
My reasoning is that Supporting fire counts as overwatch; once they've shot in overwatch they are no longer in overwatch, there is no double dipping.

   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block




Hi guys,

So ignore my interpretation of the Overwatch rule. Guess thats what happens when your sleep deprived.

However, the charging from cover still applies. We played a few games in store today and the Staff were in agreement since this game works with 90 deg arcs.
So... seems legit.

I do not think that they are able to Overwatch and use Supporting Fire. However, they may be able to give supporting fire more than once. Since it is only LIKE Overwatch?

Also my friend had a point. Units within 3" fire as if in Overwatch. It does not state it HAS to be at the charging target.

For example, See image below, a group of 4 Pathfinders are grouped, facing different directions for cover. All within 3" of one another.

They would all get to Overwatch, but cannot see the charging target. If they can see another target it seems they may fire at them?
In the scenario below, the two on the left cannot see the charging harlie but are able to see another. Thanks to their rule, they should be able to shoot? right?]

Chris

[Thumb - Charge Scenario.png]

   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block




Also, another dirty tactic.

If you have sufficient movement to execute it.

The below move (if legal, I cannot see why not) would abuse the Tau needing to take initiative tests to shoot us.

Following the ruling from "Fleeting". Charging from a hidden position (Easy for harlies since we do not suffer from terrain) and finishing out of that 90deg cone.

See attached image.













Automatically Appended Next Post:
So, you'l be happy to know. This should be my spam finished for the day.

I only split these up so the images attached were relevant and not confusing.

So my re-match today, I discovered very quickly I was wrong about Overwatch and running from the previous phase. My bad.
Re read the rules before anyone in my shop found out though.

So, my re-match with Tau. Went really well.
I'm sad to say I cheesed the hell out of Fleeting for Overwatch. Poor guy :(
But, I played 4 games and I think he managed to actually kill 1 harlie in 4 games.

Played

Master -
Fusion Pistol
H/Blade

Virtuoso -
Neuro Disruptor
Embrace

Virtuoso -
Neuro Disruptor
H/Blade

For this matchup, it worked fine. I took a Death Jester in a few games.
He is OP when the max distance Tau can spot you is 12"

Template weapon is S1, so harder to set off the alarm. Unless I can find ruling somewhere I've overlooked because this seems OP. S1 Large Blast, hits on 2, wounds on 2. -1 Armour save.
Most low armour low Initiative armies will hate us


Onto new and brighter things.

I dominated most games against Chaos and also against Necrons.

My biggest challenge was Astra Militarum.

He ran multiple snipers with Toxic Rounds. Although, I've since read he was using his special rule wrong. He was giving +1 to hit, not re-rolling 1's.
This might not be such an issue. However, I failed some saves and the mass of fire eventually got through my saves. In hindsight I think I need to start being more conscious and learn all the other army's rules because im sure, now reading, that there were a few failed ammo saves too.

Anyway this aside.

Quick question.
Red dot sight gives the target a 6+ Invuln. Does this improve ours to 3++? No reason why it wouldn't surely?

Thanks for helping guys.

Going to make a quick tips sheet for myself as a reference point to ensure I am not cheated and dont forget rules.
Such as playing an entire game and forgetting my Death Jesters rule!

Also considering starting a campaign with;

Troupe Master
No Upg

4x Virtuoso

This should get me by mission 1 and I can upgrade each one with Neuro Disruptor/H-Blade per game or spend a cache.

Thoughts?

Chris
[Thumb - InitiativeAbuse.png]

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2017/04/21 16:53:03


 
   
Made in us
Deadly Dire Avenger






mcsheehy wrote:

Also considering starting a campaign with;

Troupe Master
No Upg

4x Virtuoso

This should get me by mission 1 and I can upgrade each one with Neuro Disruptor/H-Blade per game or spend a cache.

Thoughts?

Chris


Virtuosos are a specialist, can't have more then 2 of them.

Shadow War Armageddon rule book page 71 wrote:
Specialists: A kill team can have up to two specialists, except Astra Militarum Veteran kill teams, which can have up to three specialists.



The three clown team looks fun though, I might try that.


 
   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block




Ah,

I completely over looked this!

Sigh... Guess Its back to the drawing board.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/23 17:56:33


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut






mcsheehy wrote:


Quick question.
Red dot sight gives the target a 6+ Invuln. Does this improve ours to 3++? No reason why it wouldn't surely?



Different armour saves do not stack, you have to choose the save you want to use, so in your case the 6++ is useless.

There are quick reference sheets at the back of the book, they don't list everything, but they show some of the important tables, pretty handy.
I think some of the stores should have a separate version of the quick references.

   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block




Ok, good to know
   
Made in us
Human Auxiliary to the Empire




Do any Harlequin players have suggestions for what Tau pathfinders can do to not be completely slaughtered?

Regarding supporting fire / overwatch:
  • Keep in mind, the 90 degree arc is drawn from the back of the models base (as shown in the overwatch rules) - not the front (like in your pics), so the entire front half of the model's base is in the arc.

  • I think if a tau is in overwatch, then he can use both overwatch and supporting fire in the same phase. First he fires overwatch just like any other model on overwatch can. Once he's finished shooting, he's no longer on overwatch. Then he fires supporting fire just like any other model with the supporting fire rule. It doesn't matter that he's no longer on overwatch and has already fired, because you don't need to be on overwatch to use supporting fire and you can use supporting fire even if you already fired in your shooting phase. This is fair because he gave up his previous shooting phase and movement phase to go on overwatch.

    However, for supporting fire, you do have to shoot at the charging enemy model. It says so in the rule: "friendly Tau Pathfinder fighters within 3" may fire a single ranged weapon at the charging enemy fighter as if they were on overwatch." (by the way, this rule does apply to "all of the members of a Tau Pathfinder kill team" (even drones and special operatives) -- that's stated just above the rule. Tau Pathfinder fighters just means fighters in a Tau Pathfinder team.
       
    Made in gb
    Been Around the Block




    Hi Peregrim,

    Eh, I cannot actually think of any "real" reason other than RAI that you could not do this. But then again, this could be completely intended as I didn't write the rules.

    Due to special rules, you can fire the same weapon multiple times.

    Also, I got the bit above the actual special rule. I over looked this.

    You are correct, the Arc is from the rear of the models base. I only drew it from the front so it was a clean picture

    However, in charging. If your friendly harlie player is abusing their 12" charge. Then landing behind you only requires 1 inch extra movement. 1.5 if you want to be picky.
    Then it will be tough for you. I'd say mass fire. Sustained fire. All you need is a couple hits and 1 wound will eventually go through.
    If you are playing Sentry, and you NEED a win. Lets say to stand a chance of staying in the game. I've seen my friend suicide his stealth suit to raise the alarm. This allows him to abuse the fact I set up in the open thinking I would not be spotted.
    But, it doesn't always work. I've seen him suicide it and roll a 1.

    Honestly, pick a table corner and rain fire. Also stand close so when charging takes place you can use supporting fire.

    All I can really think of.

    If my friend comes up with anything particularly inventive, Ill post it here for you

    Also, re-reading the wording. Would indicate that only Friendly, not the model its self, can overwatch the charging unit? Just me?

    But from what I've heard. Tau are one of the weaker armies with little to no options.

    Astra Militarum are cheaper, better stats and more available weapons. Sad but true. Also... Red Dot Sight :(

    Chris
    [Thumb - TauSupportingFire.PNG]

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/25 20:40:45


     
       
    Made in gb
    Been Around the Block




    Hey guys,


    It's been a little while.

    So, I've now joined my local GW's SWA Tournament. Approx 30 players.
    Goal, 15 caches is smallest amount of games. Didn't actually ask what the prize was.

    Played 2 games on Thursday. 1st against C/Marines and 2nd against Orks.

    Game 1 : C/Marines

    List :

    T/Master -
    H/Blade

    Virtuoso -
    H/Embrace

    Virtuoso -
    H/Blade

    Mime -
    H/Blade

    Mime -
    H/Blade


    My opponent was fairly new to SWA. Only a handful of games under his belt so I wasn't super competitive.
    We had several rule discussions as we played and I even offered him advice on countering Harlies.
    However, he did not have enough shooting and went with C/Marine bodies. So overall, he was mainly relying on Close combat.

    Turn 1 he downed 1 of my Virtuoso's. His only useful shot

    After that, he overwatched etc and missed with almost everything.

    Turn 3 I was in combat and killed 2 less armed C/Marines. Just poor saving rolls.
    His turn 3 he bottled. Although I agreed to play on so we could cover more rules.

    I upgraded 1 Virtuoso with Neuro so he has Neuro/Embrace combo.
    Rolled 6 for recovery on my other Virtuoso and got +1 Wound.
    I also chose to skill up my Neuro Virtuoso who got +1 Attack.
    3 P.Caches.
    Spent 1 on a Death Jester. For Lulz.
    Signed off each others sheets and went to our next table.

    Game 2 : Orks

    List :

    T/Master -
    2x H/Blade

    Virtuoso - +1A
    Embrace/Neuro

    Virtuoso - +1W
    H/Blade

    Mime -
    H/Blade

    Mime -
    H/Blade

    My Ork opponent seemed to be quite experienced. However, he failed to realise that my Death Jester had a template weapon and set up in cover grouped up.

    So Turn 1-3 I sat back on my laurels and shot him with my DJ.
    Turn 4 he had about 4 Orks remaining that were not pinned or down. I charged 5 harlies into them and won combat.

    Overall the game was not that interesting.

    Won 2 P.Caches and upgraded my other Virtuoso.
    Skilled my T/Master, got Skill up and chose Agility. Rolled a 6.
    Now has triple instead of double charge range. Like a Semi-Solitaire!

    Not a full batrep as I didn't have time and didn't take any notes during the game. Just from memory.

    Chris
       
    Made in ca
    I'll Be Back





    New Brunswick

    I don't have the actual rulebook; what's this about using the pistol stats in close combat?

    Played an intro game against a friend's Imperial Guard just to show our group what all was involved with the rules and such. Harlequin victory.

    Had a Troupe Master, a Virtuoso, two Players and a Mime. Don't have the list on me at the time of this writing to get the gear I had, but basically I ran the first three turns keeping to solid cover so he could only draw LOS to one or two of my models with only one or two of his Guard at a time. Stumbled a bit on the whole 'declare a charge before any movement' thing as the wording in the book is a little dodgy, (Saying 'and' instead of 'or' for what you can legally charge in regards to being able to see the enemy or simply just being aware of them), but once I got into close combat... Sweet science it was glorious.

    Lost one Player to his Sergeant's chainsword and his +1 to everything for attacking after a regular Guard, but I avenged the death by knocking out all but two of his seven models and forcing a bottle. I'm tempted to try a more kitted out group of three models after having read all of this, but I'm not too sure I'd like having fewer targets for the enemy shots to be focused on. Provided they can see them of course.

    It's also throwing me off because the rule for Prismatic Blur says 'a model with this rule', but I don't see it written anywhere in the PDF or on any stat line. I mean, I suppose it's just assumed that with Holo-Suits the rule then applies but I'd still rather have it written down just in case I run into a more anal player.

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/15 13:00:23


     
       
    Made in us
    Longtime Dakkanaut




    Philadelphia

    It says in the Harlequin Troupe special rules that all members in the Kill Team have Prismatic Blur.

    Also, is there a consensus on how Harlequins should be outfitted when starting a campaign? Are we looking for more bodies, or a smaller group of geared up team members?

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/15 13:26:47


       
    Made in ca
    I'll Be Back





    New Brunswick

     infinite_array wrote:
    It says in the Harlequin Troupe special rules that all members in the Kill Team have Prismatic Blur.

    Also, is there a consensus on how Harlequins should be outfitted when starting a campaign? Are we looking for more bodies, or a smaller group of geared up team members?


    Well that's embarrassing for me... Thanks for pointing that out lol
       
    Made in gb
    Been Around the Block




    Personally, I prefer to take 5 Harlies. TM, 2x Virtuoso, 2x Mime. Minimum upgrades.

    I figure that the first 1-2 games are the easiest when most armies dont have their big upgrades etc.

    Your S3 on the charge will be tough. But it is doable if you engage smart. Ie, pick on Cultists for Chaos to force bottle tests.

    It will be different in each meta.
       
    Made in us
    Longtime Dakkanaut




    Philadelphia

    So, yeah. Got the first couple of games in for the local SWAg league, and Harlequins are nasty. I started with the 3-man team (Troupe Leader Elidyr and Virtuosos Ailuin and Maelyrra), with the same equipment as Spreelock in the first post.

    The first game was against Inquisition, with the Harlequins ambushing the humans, who couldn't roll high enough to deploy elsewhere on the table. It ended in a few turns when one Virtuoso shot and downed an Acolyte, and the other Virtuoso and the Troupe Leader fought with the Inquisitor and a storm-shield Crusader. The Inquisition bottled with just their Acolyte's leadership left. The Troupe Leader picked up another attack, and I used a cache to recruit a Mime (Ryfon) with a shuriken pistol and monomolecular blade.

    Second game was against Mechanicus - Scavenge with only two tokens on the table. Both sides grabbed their tokens, then the Harlequins ran across the table, dodging fire from the Skitarii. One ranger went down from a neuro disrupter shot, and two more went down in close combat (though not before some very close results and rangers firing into close combat. The rangers decided to bottle out rather than stick around. Ailuin picked up Gunfighter, and I recruited another Mime (Dessous) with a shuriken pistol and monomolecular blade.

    If everything goes well after the next game, I'll probably skip getting a third Mime and instead get another Neuro Disrupter for Ailuin, which is just scary.

    This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/05/19 17:22:27


       
    Made in gb
    Been Around the Block




    Hey mate,

    Glad to see your games went well!

    The 3 harlies is a power list. It starts a campaign REALLY strong and the power shows so well when you are against un-upgraded armies.

    However, I've found that the list, while powerfull (Overpowered) in the beginning of your campaign. It quickly tapers off as you run out of upgrades to buy. Forcing you to spend you oh so valuable P/Caches.

    I start with 5, still really powerful, and upgrade for the next 6 games. Only then do I need to spend a P/Cache to get my 6th Player. By this time I have 1TM, 2 Virtuoso's and 2 Players. (Mimes are upgraded)
    And I've also got restricted places to put skill ups without making the model even more of a target.

    Ie,
    Troupe Master,
    Power Sword, Fusion Blaster, 5 skill ups.

    HE is a BIG target and worth so much points.


    Just a tip if you favor shooting.
    Buy two upgraded combat weapons. Ie, 2 Mono blades.
    This means that if you fail your ammo roll. You are not gimped in CC.

    Chris


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    On another note.

    My current campaign.

    We are playing primary objective as Victory Points.

    3 for a win, 1 for a draw.
    We have too many players playing games simultaneously to use the first to 15 caches.
    Caches are the secondary victory condition.

    Ie, after 5 missions have been run. How many Vic Points. If its a Draw, we count the players Caches.


    ******************************

    My list as it stands, 4 games in.

    Troupe Master -
    Power Sword, Fusion Blaster, H/Blade
    Skills : Sprint, Evade

    Virtuoso - +1 Attack
    N/Disruptor, Embrace
    Skills : Escape Artist

    Virtuoso - +1 Wound
    N/Disruptor, Mono/Blade, H/Blade
    Skills : Dive

    Player -
    H/Blade, H/Blade, S/Pistol

    Player -
    H/Blade, H/Blade, S/Pistol

    I have so many H/Blades because I thought Parries stacked.
    Turns out they don't unless a special rule states.
    FYI : I haven't actually used double Parry in a game. So it didn't pay off anyway.

    Sitting on 8 Prom Caches. With 3/4 games won. 0 Specialists used.

    Games in order :

    Game 1 - Kill Team - Chaos Marines (win)
    Game 2 - Scavengers - Inquisition (loss)
    Game 3 - Hit & Run - Space Marine Scouts (win)
    Game 4 - The Raid - Necrons - (win)

    The Battle Report above from the Orks wasn't actually my campaign game. I got mixed up.

    Next game is Ambush against Tau. Should be fun after they gave Drones 2 wounds and he has 3. :( + 10 Pathfinders. He will no doubt take a stealth suit also.

    I'll let you know how it goes!

    C

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/19 18:55:44


     
       
    Made in us
    Longtime Dakkanaut




    Philadelphia

    I'm thinking that the Caches will ramp up over time. The 3-man squad is a high cost early investment, but means that I'll have everything sorted early.

    I've also been rolling poorly for Caches, so I only have 1 after two games.

    We're also doing a "play until 8th ed comes out" (I don't play, but the others do). So it'll be interesting to see how many Caches we can get in meantime.

       
     
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