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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Howard A Treesong wrote:
I don't have a problem with the cost advantages of state running railways. Money spent on fat pay packets and share holders can go into running the service. But like everything else sold off there are big costs to getting it back, you can't just take control and not pour in investment. Like building hundreds of thousands of houses and investing in infrastructure, rebuilding public services, costs tend to be weighted at the front, is it really affordable? It's not Corbyn's fault that our finances are not great, but I don't see that it's all affordable without taxation, and the rich won't be taxed because they always wriggle out. I do approve of things like rent controls, and believe house prices need control, but I can see that being a hard fight because, again, its wealthy people taking the hit.



Not really as long as you do it sensibly. Most contracts have break clauses in them after a certain period of time or termination clauses if they fail to achieve the contract terms (southern rail perhaps??) However as long you undertake the transfer sensibly then the actual investment costs upfront will be relatively light overall. If you wait until the contract break time then you can issue notice to terminate the contract and the current supplier can't do anything (terminating before this will leave the state open to paying the lost costs of the supplier). Most contracts will ensure that the current supplier has to leave equipment in the same form as they left it (otherwise vindictive suppliers on losing a contract can trash everything at no cost to them which immediately means the next contract is unviable). Staff would transfer across under TUPE regulations and for the first several months nothing would actually change. Then the state business can get down to determining what it needs to do to reduce costs and ensure it earns enough profit to ensure continued investment and any extra then go towards whatever the government of the day wants to spend it on (which could include reducing the deficit).

The problem is we sold off anything that was profitable leaving us with the things no one actually wants because there is a cost to it. Top this off by the fact that taxation on this possible state systems is stupidly small then you get a double hit; you've both lost an element of income and you have less way to support those areas that aren't profitable (say supporting families in hardship).

If a business can run a state wide operation and make a significant profit then so can the state if it wishes to do so. And it can then use that profit to support other areas of the country.

The real issue with state run businesses is when you get politicians with sticky fingers and start enforcing unprofitable regimes on to the state business because it is the issue they've read in the Daily Mail on the way to work - for example if they decided every seat in train carriages had to be wide enough to fit an open push chair.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/04/29 09:15:55


"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V

I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!

"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics 
   
Made in gb
Courageous Grand Master




-

Good to see UK politics discussion back in the OT.

As for the GE...well...

May is damaging the democratic process in my book: staged managed events with party sycophants, no TV debates, no questions from journalists, meaningless soundbites etc etc

not to mention her love for the surveillance state when Home Secretary...

It ain't looking good for British democracy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And for next week's council elections, I've been reading a lot about the STV voting system, and my advice is to fill in every box.

And English dakka members: are you looking forward to electing new mayors next week in places like Manchester?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/29 10:56:28


"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd 
   
Made in gb
Mekboy Hammerin' Somethin'





Boston, UK

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39756016

For feths sake!

Looks like I'm stocking up on rotten eggs, rancid veg and burning bags of dog gak should this lying sack of gak show his face around here.
Why doesn't the scouse ladypart just feth off back to where he came from.

"All their ferocity was turned outwards, against enemies of the State, foreigners, traitors, saboteurs, thought-criminals" - Orwell, 1984 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 r_squared wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39756016

For feths sake!

Looks like I'm stocking up on rotten eggs, rancid veg and burning bags of dog gak should this lying sack of gak show his face around here.
Why doesn't the scouse ladypart just feth off back to where he came from.


Same here dude. While I've got the Humber between me and Boston, he's gonna be all over the local news until June Parachuting really winds me up no matter what party does it. IMO a person should have been a resident of the area for at least 2 to 5 years before they are allowed to stand as a candidate.
   
Made in de
Ladies Love the Vibro-Cannon Operator






Hamburg

As a stupid European, can you vote for remain?
Or are all votes for leave anyway?

Former moderator 40kOnline

Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!

Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a "" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."

Armies: Eldar, Necrons, Blood Angels, Grey Knights; World Eaters (30k); Bloodbound; Cryx, Circle, Cyriss 
   
Made in je
Fresh-Faced New User





Jersey St Helier

 r_squared wrote:
 AlchemicalSolution wrote:
 feeder wrote:
 Howard A Treesong wrote:
I find Corbyn's ideas fanciful and unaffordable. I've no confidence in Labour to form a coherent government, they can't form a stable cabinet. I'm tired of having Trident and migrants being the big issues, when we have a housing shortage and crippling cuts into education and health. I feel we could have a strong left wing in this country, but all the groups I hear the loudest are 'virtue-signalling' and the in fighting is dreadful, there's no unity, just protest.

I fear labour will be destroyed by this election, and a massive Tory majority isn't healthy. But there are no alternatives. The liberal democrats cannot win power, and are weak in coalition.

And I vote in a labour stronghold. So it's barely worth bothering either way. I'll probably give my vote to the trade unionists again, so they get their deposit back.


What's worse, inept but well meaning, or actively trying to loot and dismantle public services?


Surely it depends on the extent of the ineptitude, and the extent of the looting.

From what I can see, even a strong Tory majority wouldn't empower May to drastically tamper with the NHS, schools, tax and spend in general, it'd just be the kind of shuffling to the right you'd expect. Labour under Corbyn doesn't look like it has a brake on how far left things would go. He's already demonstrated that he considers his grassroots hard left supporters his only constituency, I see nothing that indicates being in government would temper that. That's exactly what makes him unelectable in a GE.


What? How would Theresa May with a parliamentary majority be less able to carry out her agenda than Jeremy Corbyn at the head of a coalition Government?
I'm assuming that there would still be Tories and Blairites in parliament around to temper his "wild swing to the left"

Theresa May also seems to be only pandering to the hardest right Brexiteers in her party and the general public, so how is that better?


There's two things to consider here, one is that only UKIP has actually published their manifesto so far, so we're shooting in the dark a little bit, but my expectation is that the Tory manifesto isn't going to tack hard to the right on any area of public finances, so unless May wants to pull a Clegg and renege on central aspects of her election manifesto, she'll be bound to a fairly centrist position, strong majority or no. This is conjecture, we'll have to wait and see what the manifesto looks like.

The other thing is that May's lack of a personal mandate and her position as essentially the custodian of Cameron's mess is precisely the reason that she has to be so wary of her far right backbenchers. With a strong mandate of her own, she would be able to see off challenges from the fringes of her party. The question will be, what are her own political instincts, really?

I have to admit to an intense personal dislike of May, I think she showed in her stint as Home Secretary a deep running authoritarian streak and a tendency towards bad old Tory social conservatism. My hope is that, if she were to win a strong victory and increase the Tory parliamentary majority, I'd be proved wrong on that. The main area she worries me in is civil liberty, not so much individual freedom. No Tory government, regardless of strength of majority, is going to reverse the social trends of the past two decades. What I could see happening though, is a large scale terror attack, or more worryingly a series of small scale ones, which tax the patience and confidence of the electorate to the extent that May feels empowered to move towards the kind of state of permanent emergency that France has been enduring, and with her in power, I think that could mean a very dark time for civil and political freedom.

Also, how do you put sections of text in a spoiler box?
   
Made in gb
Lord of Carrion





Also, how do you put sections of text in a spoiler box?


1. Select/highlight the text and click the Spoiler button.

2. Click at the beginning of the text, and click the Spoiler button. This inserts the opening tag code [spoiler]. Then click at the end of the text and click the Spoiler button, which has now changed to Spoiler*. This inserts the closing tag code. [/ spoiler]

3. Or you can enter the tags manually by typing the tag codes.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/29 14:38:47


 
   
Made in gb
Courageous Grand Master




-

 r_squared wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39756016

For feths sake!

Looks like I'm stocking up on rotten eggs, rancid veg and burning bags of dog gak should this lying sack of gak show his face around here.
Why doesn't the scouse ladypart just feth off back to where he came from.


You have my condolences.

Still, you have to feel sorry for the good people of Stoke. Despite only spending ten minutes there, he laid down deep roots and built many a life-long friendship with the good people of Stoke.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 wuestenfux wrote:
As a stupid European, can you vote for remain?
Or are all votes for leave anyway?


That ship has sailed. It's been signed, sealed, and delivered by Parliament, and Queen Elizabeth has put pen to paper. We're leaving the EU.

Any talk of a second referendum is nonsense or a cynical move by the Lib Dems to get votes.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/29 14:58:12


"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
 wuestenfux wrote:
As a stupid European, can you vote for remain?
Or are all votes for leave anyway?


That ship has sailed. It's been signed, sealed, and delivered by Parliament, and Queen Elizabeth has put pen to paper. We're leaving the EU.

Any talk of a second referendum is nonsense or a cynical move by the Lib Dems to get votes.


I think that is wishful thinking (never mind that as the older population die off, the younger generation are going to see getting back into the EU as a good thing). Nothing is irreversible and the trend in the polls are decidedly moving away from Brexit as a good idea. The latest polls show that the proportion of the populace thinking Brexit is a bad idea is now in the majority. As times get harder and the trend likely gets greater then whoever is in government is going to have a hard time persuading the general populace that they have the best interest at heart.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/brexit-poll-times_uk_5901d53ce4b081a5c0fb1e16

Effectively people are waking up to the fact that times will be harder outside the EU. Farmers now worry about how they will offset subsidies and where the seasonal employees will come from. Pret-a-manger customers wonder who's going to make their snacks and so on. People wonder how they will afford the luxuries they use to have when food prices continue to escalate etc etc.

Even if we don't have a referendum on the final options we can still have a new referendum on rejoining the EU. Don't worry wuestenfux we'll be back before you know it...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/29 16:11:49


"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V

I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!

"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics 
   
Made in gb
Courageous Grand Master




-

 Whirlwind wrote:
 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
 wuestenfux wrote:
As a stupid European, can you vote for remain?
Or are all votes for leave anyway?


That ship has sailed. It's been signed, sealed, and delivered by Parliament, and Queen Elizabeth has put pen to paper. We're leaving the EU.

Any talk of a second referendum is nonsense or a cynical move by the Lib Dems to get votes.


I think that is wishful thinking (never mind that as the older population die off, the younger generation are going to see getting back into the EU as a good thing). Nothing is irreversible and the trend in the polls are decidedly moving away from Brexit as a good idea. The latest polls show that the proportion of the populace thinking Brexit is a bad idea is now in the majority. As times get harder and the trend likely gets greater then whoever is in government is going to have a hard time persuading the general populace that they have the best interest at heart.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/brexit-poll-times_uk_5901d53ce4b081a5c0fb1e16



Effectively people are waking up to the fact that times will be harder outside the EU. Farmers now worry about how they will offset subsidies and where the seasonal employees will come from. Pret-a-manger customers wonder who's going to make their snacks and so on. People wonder how they will afford the luxuries they use to have when food prices continue to escalate etc etc.

Even if we don't have a referendum on the final options we can still have a new referendum on rejoining the EU. Don't worry wuestenfux we'll be back before you know it...



Is that your strategy for getting the nation back into the EU? Not great speeches or passionate debates extolling the benefits of EU membership, but hoping for old people to die off! Bloody hell!

"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd 
   
Made in de
Ladies Love the Vibro-Cannon Operator






Hamburg

 Whirlwind wrote:
 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
 wuestenfux wrote:
As a stupid European, can you vote for remain?
Or are all votes for leave anyway?


That ship has sailed. It's been signed, sealed, and delivered by Parliament, and Queen Elizabeth has put pen to paper. We're leaving the EU.

Any talk of a second referendum is nonsense or a cynical move by the Lib Dems to get votes.


I think that is wishful thinking (never mind that as the older population die off, the younger generation are going to see getting back into the EU as a good thing). Nothing is irreversible and the trend in the polls are decidedly moving away from Brexit as a good idea. The latest polls show that the proportion of the populace thinking Brexit is a bad idea is now in the majority. As times get harder and the trend likely gets greater then whoever is in government is going to have a hard time persuading the general populace that they have the best interest at heart.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/brexit-poll-times_uk_5901d53ce4b081a5c0fb1e16

Effectively people are waking up to the fact that times will be harder outside the EU. Farmers now worry about how they will offset subsidies and where the seasonal employees will come from. Pret-a-manger customers wonder who's going to make their snacks and so on. People wonder how they will afford the luxuries they use to have when food prices continue to escalate etc etc.

Even if we don't have a referendum on the final options we can still have a new referendum on rejoining the EU. Don't worry wuestenfux we'll be back before you know it...


I hope UK will be back in the (near) future.
Globalization is something you have to deal with. The younger people seem to be more able to cope with this than the elder ones.

Former moderator 40kOnline

Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!

Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a "" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."

Armies: Eldar, Necrons, Blood Angels, Grey Knights; World Eaters (30k); Bloodbound; Cryx, Circle, Cyriss 
   
Made in gb
Courageous Grand Master




-

It has often been said that young people love socialism, then they get jobs and property as they get older, and then become Conservatives...

There is some truth in that.

"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd 
   
Made in gb
Lord of Carrion





 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
It has often been said that young people love socialism, then they get jobs and property as they get older, and then become Conservatives...

There is some truth in that.


I skipped socialism entirely. I credit New Labour with that.
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Norwich

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
It has often been said that young people love socialism, then they get jobs and property as they get older, and then become Conservatives...

There is some truth in that.


I was a conservative but the older i have gotten the more liberal i have gotten, but i know exactly what you mean and i think its more true that most realise.

   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Master Engineer with a Brace of Pistols






Of course kids and teenagers want socialism. They're used to someone else always paying for their gak. The realities of a job and paying taxes and a mortgage usually knocks that out of them. Except for a few sad acts like Jermony Corbyn who just can't give it up.
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in southern England.

 wuestenfux wrote:
As a stupid European, can you vote for remain?
Or are all votes for leave anyway?


Given that the Article 50 process is irrevocable, the UK will leave the EU one way or another in slightly under 2 years whoever is elected and whatever happens in the exit negotiations.

If you want to register disapproval of leaving the EU, the Liberal-Democrat Party is running its campaign on that basis.

"Being it's from Japan, they've sexed up a model of a piece of agricultural equipment with a cute farm girl model you can build with her top off showing her sports bra."

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in gb
[SWAP SHOP MOD]
Killer Klaivex







My choices are between:-

-The party who places politics and the macro above the personal and the micro, who know the cost of everything and the value of nothing.
-A party split between people like the previous one, a few hippies and a number of hardcore pseudo-socialist bastards.
-A rabble of ostensibly liberal hypocrites who'd do anything to get another sniff of power.

and....that's it. What a time to be alive.


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


Is that your strategy for getting the nation back into the EU? Not great speeches or passionate debates extolling the benefits of EU membership, but hoping for old people to die off! Bloody hell!


There's no need for strategy from this perspective. The older and less educated generally voted for Leave and younger and better educated generally voted Remain based on all the polls and analysis. As a population we are generally becoming more educated especially with the younger generation. As such as the older population pass away that will leave a larger and larger proportion of better educated populace. That would imply that being part of the EU will become more popular in time. Indeed, we've run the statistics before and it the turning point might only be in 10 years time. If the referendum had been held back for another two GEs then we might not be in this sorry mess to start with. It's not a strategy more a reflection of that we all get older and eventually peg it!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Kilkrazy wrote:
 wuestenfux wrote:
As a stupid European, can you vote for remain?
Or are all votes for leave anyway?


Given that the Article 50 process is irrevocable, the UK will leave the EU one way or another in slightly under 2 years whoever is elected and whatever happens in the exit negotiations.

If you want to register disapproval of leaving the EU, the Liberal-Democrat Party is running its campaign on that basis.


I didn't think this had been confirmed and that there was some question as to whether it could be withdrawn (because the legal text is quiet on the issue)?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/29 20:10:38


"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V

I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!

"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics 
   
Made in de
Ladies Love the Vibro-Cannon Operator






Hamburg

This process is not irreversible as said by some EU official.

Former moderator 40kOnline

Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!

Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a "" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."

Armies: Eldar, Necrons, Blood Angels, Grey Knights; World Eaters (30k); Bloodbound; Cryx, Circle, Cyriss 
   
Made in gb
[SWAP SHOP MOD]
Killer Klaivex







 Whirlwind wrote:


There's no need for strategy from this perspective. The older and less educated generally voted for Leave and younger and better educated generally voted Remain based on all the polls and analysis. As a population we are generally becoming more educated especially with the younger generation. As such as the older population pass away that will leave a larger and larger proportion of better educated populace. That would imply that being part of the EU will become more popular in time. Indeed, we've run the statistics before and it the turning point might only be in 10 years time. If the referendum had been held back for another two GEs then we might not be in this sorry mess to start with. It's not a strategy more a reflection of that we all get older and eventually peg it!


I'm afraid your analysis is coloured by your personal hopes in this regard. The longer we are out of Europe, the less young people will care about it, or even remember having been in it. That will remove it as an immediate political issue, and as young people rarely vote, the young people of tomorrow are unlikely to have a particularly loud voice one way or another.

What's more, those who voted for it now will in turn grow older, and likely vote more conservatively (judging by normal voter demographics). Assuming the country hasn't fallen apart (a reasonable assumption judging by the face we've had a continuous government since Cromwell), there'll be other more pressing political issues playing on their mind then signing back up to European bureaucracy.

Finally, you're assuming that what the EU turns into will be something that a) well educated liberal types would want to be part of, and b) that indeed anyone would want to be part of. The EU of today bears absolutely no resemblance to that of thirty years ago; there's no telling what it could look like in another twenty five. It could be a dictatorship, have crashed and burned, or (more likely) have unified into something more akin to an individual nation-state.

Personally, I reckon that if they go for the two track Europe solution (with the outer level being primarily economic), we might well sign up to that in a decade or two, once everything is laid out properly. But I think any possibility of us throwing ourselves wholeheartedly into the great European integration project has died for the next century or so.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/04/29 21:10:02



 
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in southern England.

One might as easily say that in 10 years people will have forgotten how dreadful it was being in the EU.

"Being it's from Japan, they've sexed up a model of a piece of agricultural equipment with a cute farm girl model you can build with her top off showing her sports bra."

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in gb
Lord of Carrion





 Kilkrazy wrote:
One might as easily say that in 10 years people will have forgotten how dreadful it was being in the EU.


Sure, if you assume that in 10 years time the EU won't be even more dreadful than it is now, prompting those same people to look at the countries suffering under the EU (Greece, Spain, Italy, Hungary etc) and go "Nope!".
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Master Engineer with a Brace of Pistols






For all we know, the end of the EU might even begin after the French presidential election.

Also, they want the rights of EU citizens here to be respected after leaving. Absolutely fine, provided the UK citizens in other eu countries get the same. We wanted this from the start but they wouldn't talk about it until me made it official. Just do it.
   
Made in gb
Lord of Carrion





We should not be giving away freebies, so no. If the EU wants something from us, they should reciprocate.

If they want to spite and punish us, we should reciprocate.

If they want to "make an example" of us to intimidate and deter other member states from leaving (Greece, France etc), we should refuse to meekly accept that, and feth them over in kind.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/29 22:12:08


 
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Master Engineer with a Brace of Pistols






 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
We should not be giving away freebies, so no. If the EU wants something from us, they should reciprocate.

If they want to spite and punish us, we should reciprocate.

If they want to "make an example" of us to intimidate and deter other member states from leaving (Greece, France etc), we should refuse to meekly accept that, and feth them over in kind.


Oh yeah, I completely agree. All I was saying that it should be quid pro quo. If they agree to protect our citizens we should do the same for them. Like for like. However...if they demand that we protect their citizens whilst they punish ours...they can go eat gak. Same for anything else.
   
Made in gb
[SWAP SHOP MOD]
Killer Klaivex







Kilkrazy wrote:One might as easily say that in 10 years people will have forgotten how dreadful it was being in the EU.


I'm sure they will have done. I'm reasonably sure that most young people will have forgotten all about it, both good and bad, will be playing Call of Duty: Hammer of War and Final Fantasy XVIII, and complaining about university fees and evil Tories/New Labour. The status quo will be the new normality, and assuming the country hasn't broken down, there will be no impetus for them to care about joining the European project or not.

The only way we'll be rejoining is if we launch into fifteen long years of endless political and economic depression and strife. Which, frankly, I don't see happening, our economy simply isn't that vulnerable.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/29 22:36:22



 
   
Made in gb
Lord of Carrion





Ultimately this whole mess can be attributed to the blind and ideologically stubborn insistence of European Union leaders to push full European integration on all member states without any consideration of alternatives, such as a two tier Europe with varying degrees of political and economic integration to suit the differing attitudes, values and desires of the various member states. If such an alternative had been in place already, instead of the current One Size Fits All policy, then the UK might not have voted to withdraw (because we would have been in the lower Tier), and the integrity of the EU as a whole would not currently be at jeopardy.

One could also argue the same applies to Scotland and Westminster.

But hey, why take an introspective look at yourselves when you can just blame the scapegoat of the "Daily Heil"?

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/04/29 23:30:18


 
   
Made in gb
Keeper of the Holy Orb of Antioch





avoiding the lorax on Crion

 Future War Cultist wrote:
 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
We should not be giving away freebies, so no. If the EU wants something from us, they should reciprocate.

If they want to spite and punish us, we should reciprocate.

If they want to "make an example" of us to intimidate and deter other member states from leaving (Greece, France etc), we should refuse to meekly accept that, and feth them over in kind.


Oh yeah, I completely agree. All I was saying that it should be quid pro quo. If they agree to protect our citizens we should do the same for them. Like for like. However...if they demand that we protect their citizens whilst they punish ours...they can go eat gak. Same for anything else.


Agreeed if they promise protection, we promise them. Its simpley fair.
No foreign citizen should have more protection than our own.
To guarantee the protection of ours is to there's.

Equal, fair, but not rolling over.

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Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.

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[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in southern England.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
 Kilkrazy wrote:
One might as easily say that in 10 years people will have forgotten how dreadful it was being in the EU.


Sure, if you assume that in 10 years time the EU won't be even more dreadful than it is now, prompting those same people to look at the countries suffering under the EU (Greece, Spain, Italy, Hungary etc) and go "Nope!".


Or you could look back 10 years at the excellent situation many EU countries had before the Global Financial Crisis of 2008, and decide to put the blame on that, not on the EU, and find that after another 10 years of recovery, things are looking great. You could also look at the enormous progress in development in countries like Poland over 20 years, and think that the EU is not actually dreadful.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Ultimately this whole mess can be attributed to the blind and ideologically stubborn insistence of European Union leaders to push full European integration on all member states without any consideration of alternatives, such as a two tier Europe with varying degrees of political and economic integration to suit the differing attitudes, values and desires of the various member states. If such an alternative had been in place already, instead of the current One Size Fits All policy, then the UK might not have voted to withdraw (because we would have been in the lower Tier), and the integrity of the EU as a whole would not currently be at jeopardy.

One could also argue the same applies to Scotland and Westminster.

But hey, why take an introspective look at yourselves when you can just blame the scapegoat of the "Daily Heil"?


The EU already has different 'tiers' in respect of membership of the Euro, Schengen, exceptions to directives like the Working Time Directive, the status of Norway and Switzerland, blah di blah, and other examples where the UK and other member states negotiated a different arrangement to the straight EU line.

The "Daily Heil" ignored all of that in favour of spreading lies about bendy banana bans.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/30 06:49:47


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Hamburg

At the end of the day, the EU is great achievement if you live in central Europe. No passport if you go to a neighboring country and if you go to vacation (Austria, Italy, Spain, Portugal), you have the same currency.
The EU is also great in a globalized world. I've read that 75% of the parts of the Astra/Vauxhall made in UK come from outside of UK. For other cars made in UK the percentage is a bit lower, about 65%. This is fine in a global world.
What worries me are political leaders or parties who/which want to turn back time and think that protectionism is the way to go. Trump, Le Pen, Wilders, Farrage, and the German AfD are all bad examples.

Former moderator 40kOnline

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