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2017/05/05 05:38:51
Subject: Re:The Return of the Extra Heretical Tau/Human Space Marines (part III now, I think...)
How can the Imperium not know they exist? They're a Space Marine Chapter, one which clearly knows their heritage (and would be known thus), has history with the Iron Hands, and if they know they exist, one would know their homeworld, and keep tabs on them. Chapter don't go missing for long, unless they literally vanish from reality (see the Fire Hawks). Not to mention you outright say in your timeline that they are spotted and recategorised AFTER they settle on T'gris.
There's no way this Chapter wouldn't be known about.
Inquisitors aren't stupid, and Deathwatch Kill Teams neither. If a Kill Team or Inquisitor with the repute to requisition one went missing, after recording a mission (because they're not stupid), then I can assure you that retaliation would be taken. Even if there's no vox (and if there is none, how does the Chapter even communicate over long distances?). You can't keep on living normally once the Inquisition tag you. You submit to them, or you are driven out of the Imperium. See the Astral Claws. They killed an investigation team, and that started the Badab Wars.
As far as most Imperial officials know, they (And the Inquisitor sent to investigate them) vanished without a trace. The Imperium KNOWS their homeworld exists, and know its location. Most likely they sent another investigation, only to find... nothing. The Tau are pretty good at erasing things.
Fair. Still, if the Chapter is unknown, then why would Guilliman accept them? If they are known, which is more likely, then they'd be killed as heretics.
There are roughly 1000 KNOWN chapters out there, each with about 1000 marines. But even GW admits there could be several hundred more chapters, excluding the remains of "destroyed" chapters. It happens quite often that a chapters homeworld gets destroyed and the remaining marines (unable to recruit enough aspirants and regain their strength) embark on crusades and are never heard from again. If two space marines with odd heraldry turned up, and are clearly not corrupted by chaos, then they typically won't be given a second glance.
So ONLY Amaterasu has any qualms against the Tau? No-one else in the entire Chapter?
Not any more, no.
You know that the Webway is ONLY used by Eldar and the super-psychic Thousand Sons, because of that? It's practically impossible to navigate the Webway.
That is correct- but "practically" impossible is not the same as impossible. It definitely isn't as precise as warp travel, but for the 5 or so companies left on T'Gris it was the only way off. Most likely only a handful survived.
How do the TAU, a race unable to understand the Warp, let alone the Webway, have Webway communication devices?
I might have phrased that wrong. I meant to say "that can communicate IN the WARP" but not "USE the warp to communicate". Honestly it was probably an accident, the Tau didn't intend for it to work in the Immeterium, it just happens to.
How can you have a friendly argument when you're actively fighting on both sides?! That's like an American soldier in Nato and an American in ISIS meeting on the battlefield and laughing it all off.
And again - the Tau aren't stupid. If they saw Marines still fighting against them, they would not accept them as allies. The Imperium already would see your guys as heretics.
Furthermore, it is impossible to serve the Empire and the Imperium.
Its more complicated than that. Imagine your two best friends get in a fistfight. Who do you help? Both? Or one?
If the Reserve Companies are built in the same way as Battle Companies, what makes them a Reserve Company? Normally, a Reserve Company consists of one type of squad or specialisation (all Bikers, all Assault, all Devastator), but that's not like yours at all? Why are they Reserves at all?
Well, their only real purpose is to reinforce missing units (like normal reserve companies) but due to the precarious situation they are in, the reserve companies (who normally are left on T'Gris as defence) need to be able to work as a normal battle company IF NEEDED. That make a little more sense now?
If they have a lack of heavy weapons, then how do they have just as many Devastators?
Going Scout -----> Tactical isn't followed at all. Tactical Marines are actually very elite, they've been trained in Assault and Devastator Squads first, and even in those Devastator Squads, they only wield bolters. Tactical is the last stage for a reason, because of the massive tactical flexibility they require.
If the 5 man squads are to train, then isn't that the point of Scouts? You train first as a Scout, then as a Devastator (only wielding a bolter), and then progress into Assault, then Tactical. Your approach works, but instead of having two separate 5 man squads, you should have them put into the Devastators. There's no other reason for it, nothing that specifically says that your method is any different or needed.
The devastator squads use the LAST of the chapters heavy weapons. Thus, only the best trained marines can use them. Also most of them have been augmented/repaired with Tau technology, and require additional training.
Hope my comments help.
They do
Spoiler:
But that's not how it comes across. It comes across like your guys just decided "hey, let's be friends with these guys we're conditioned to hate!". The Tau have no control or corruption, your guys just seem very weak-willed.
Think about how the original traitors were corrupted. A few marines (actually only really Erebus and Kor Phaeron) started preaching in different legions. This fused with the davinites to create the lodges: a small group of seemingly loyal marines who work to get everyone onto their side. When the time is right, and the majority corrupted, they disposed of the "loyalists". In this case, some of the Shadow's Hunters decided their only chance of survival was to join the Tau, and so they did. It might have been tau mind trickery, it might have been desperate space marines, it might have been both.
Ok, my hands are tied now. I'll finish this later.
Hey mate, I thought I would run through your story with edits reflecting what I would have done if it was my story, I hope it gives you some ideas/inspires creativity.
Shadow's Hunters
Chapter Name: Shadow's Hunters!
Status: MIA by Imperial records
Color Scheme: Black, Orange Shoulder Pads, Orange Details
Icon: Black or White Falcon
Battle Cry: insert something not Tau here lol Founding:22
Primarch: Corax
Genetic Mutations: low psychic abilities
Home World: Insert imperial name here
Fortress Monastery: Destroyed
Active Marines: 847
Recruitment: From local pop.
Chapter Master: Insert typical Marine name here or some kind of sterotype
Title of Chapter Master: Chapter Master
Sworn Enemies: All
Rival Chapters: Iron Hands,
Chapter Relics: Corax's Final Gift: A vial of uncorrupted Primachs Geneseed.
Perception of Humanity: After observing the 'taint' of Tau on the local population, have noticed a few things that make a Marine ponder if the Imperium is on the right track or not, but for most accounts the Imperium still rocks. Have become a bit more sympathic towards the mistakes humans can make.
HISTORY:
Shadow's Hunters (as in: the hunter's of shadow) are a Space Marine chapter created during the 22 found to help enforce the Blockade of the Eye of Terror.
They came into conflict with the Iron Hands after a battalion of Imperial Guard, who's transport ships had been infested by daemons, were exterminated. The argument escalated until Gethur Soulfist, Captain of the 3rd company of Shadows Hunters, attacked, and killed, an Iron Hands battle brother. The Shadows Hunters then fled, leaving the Eye of Terror and embarking on a Crusade across the Galaxy to redeem themselves in the eyes of the Emperor. (that's all fine and dandy to me)
The Shadow's Hunters spent many centuries fighting on behalf of the Imperium. Many victories were claimed by the Chapter, but not without cost. The Shadow's Hunters valued human life, and in time, they they clashed with the Inquisition. For some time, their humanism earned them a reputation as saviors to many worlds... and then they were engaged in a massive conflict against Ork forces, the Chapter fought a great battle in orbit over Tigris V where the flag ship (in a final act of courage) was rammed through a mighty Ork warship, destroying both ships "FOR THE EMPEROR!!!"
The surviving Marines crash landed on Tigris V, a populated world on the Eastern fringe. Ork survivors crash landed on the planet as well, and the Marines engaged in brutal guerilla warfare for some time. After the conflict, the Chapter was in tatters, and the local human population were litte more than barbarians.
The Marines take up farm work, educate the locals, build homes, care for livestock etc. Preaching the imperial creed etc.
It was many years later, that the planet came under attack by the Last Sons of Tagrion, a warband of Chaos Space Marines. The inscription on the Rock of Tolan tells of the battle that ensured. Chaos Cultists, marines, Summoned Daemons , and unholy machines ran rampant across the sands of T'gris. TAU fleet ships, trying to outflank Ork raiders, detected the conflict, and wondered what was going on.. the planet was assumed to be barren.
As the bare chested farmboy Marines fought tooth and nail against Chaos, the Tau arrived in orbit and opened fire on, destroying many of the demented, unholy vessels orbiting Tigris. After deploying troops against their foes, the Tau warriors encountered the Space Marines attacking the same enemy.
"The cresent shaped ships drop upon the battlefield, weapons firing repeatedly. The heretics, surprised by this new shift in their sure victory, where slow to reconise the new threat, and many where cut down by blasts from the ships, or else quickly dispatched by our brothers. Those who survived the first onslaught stood in shock as all they had accomplished in the name of their dark gods crumbled. The battle was over within minutes."
Captain Devan, 6th Company.
"As the last cultist lay dying, the ships descended. The smallest [actually an Orca dropship] landed just meters from our Chapter Master. The bay dors opend, and from its hold came Xenos. The foremost, obviously the leader, halted, and without signal, the rest formed colums behind him. He spoke, surprisingly, in near perfect Low Gothic. 'I am Por'ui T'ren Resh'ur, envoy from the venerable Shas'el Kel'shan An'ir, Veteran of the 1 sphere expansion and She Who Walks Alone."
At this our [Chapter] Master without word, walked right up to the Tau envoy, and ramed his fist throughthe Xeno's head. The Marines swarmed the Orca, tearing limb from limb.
-Sergeant Toren
A few months later, the Water Caste sent another envoy, and this time tried to warn the Marines about the current war within their sector, TAU casualities were minimal before the Chatper master would hear their cries. It was explained to the Marines that the entire sector was engulfed with war, Tau forces whome have been trying to conqure the sector for years faced constant ork incursions, and their supply lines were difficult to maintain. This planet was to become a Tau staging point for future offensives.
The Marines couldn't care less, but knew that they didn't have the means to stop an Ork incusrion the scale of which was described to them, so an uneasy truce was made with the Water Caste. Tau would provide what limitied resources they could, enough for the Marines to create a forge, better living conditions for the locals, Marines would help the Tau keep the planet secure from Orks.
Thus a working relationship developed between the two groups, and over time Tau influence/culture spread through the world, further concerning the Chapter.
Timeline:
M.37: Shadow's Hunters are founded.
479 M.37: Shadow's Hunter task force deployed to enforce Eye of Terror blockade.
940 M38: Battle of Berallis III, Shadow's Hunters 2nd and 4th company deployed, along with Xionian Death Legion and elements of the Ordo Xenos.
858 M.38: Suribann Conflict; Shadow's Hunters embark on their penitent crusade.
312 M.39: last Imperial contact with Shadow's Hunters.
? M.41: Huge epic battle over Tigris V majority of chapter KIA.
59 M.41: Captain Amaterasu become chapter master.
570 M.41: First Battle of Tigris. Shadow's Hunters and Tau forces are able to defeat the Last Sons of Tagrion. Ravanalla becomes chapter master.
990 M.41: Skirmish between tau Firewarriors and Marines after dispute during the establishment of a Tau fortification zone on the planet during the approach of a large ork raiding force.
999 M.41: Major Ork incursion, Marines and Tau forces fighting together.
That's how I would do it. Their a DIY chapter so IMO they should steer clear out of current events and be occupied with their own thing, like Blood Ravens. This causes less issues in the long run
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/05/05 12:40:58
2017/05/05 22:19:23
Subject: Re:The Return of the Extra Heretical Tau/Human Space Marines (part III now, I think...)
How can the Imperium not know they exist? They're a Space Marine Chapter, one which clearly knows their heritage (and would be known thus), has history with the Iron Hands, and if they know they exist, one would know their homeworld, and keep tabs on them. Chapter don't go missing for long, unless they literally vanish from reality (see the Fire Hawks). Not to mention you outright say in your timeline that they are spotted and recategorised AFTER they settle on T'gris.
There's no way this Chapter wouldn't be known about.
Inquisitors aren't stupid, and Deathwatch Kill Teams neither. If a Kill Team or Inquisitor with the repute to requisition one went missing, after recording a mission (because they're not stupid), then I can assure you that retaliation would be taken. Even if there's no vox (and if there is none, how does the Chapter even communicate over long distances?). You can't keep on living normally once the Inquisition tag you. You submit to them, or you are driven out of the Imperium. See the Astral Claws. They killed an investigation team, and that started the Badab Wars.
As far as most Imperial officials know, they (And the Inquisitor sent to investigate them) vanished without a trace.
So, an Inquisitor and a Deathwatch team large enough to make an entire Chapter scatter disappear, and the Imperial officials just say "oh well, probably nothing, it's not like the chapter might actually have been traitorous..."
The Imperium KNOWS their homeworld exists, and know its location. Most likely they sent another investigation, only to find... nothing. The Tau are pretty good at erasing things.
When has that been demonstrated?
And again, the Imperium wouldn't just drop an investigation - without having any knowledge of the investigation, they'd likely put the Chapter on suspicion until they could be investigated - any refusal to do so would be an affront against the Ordo Xenos.
You don't just kill an Inquisitor and walk away unless you're a Space Wolf.
Fair. Still, if the Chapter is unknown, then why would Guilliman accept them? If they are known, which is more likely, then they'd be killed as heretics.
There are roughly 1000 KNOWN chapters out there, each with about 1000 marines. But even GW admits there could be several hundred more chapters, excluding the remains of "destroyed" chapters. It happens quite often that a chapters homeworld gets destroyed and the remaining marines (unable to recruit enough aspirants and regain their strength) embark on crusades and are never heard from again. If two space marines with odd heraldry turned up, and are clearly not corrupted by chaos, then they typically won't be given a second glance.
No, you're pretty wrong there. If a Chapter doesn't clear out (and every Space Marine would be able to recognise another's heraldry, especially ones operating in similar regions), then they'd be investigated. As Space Marines are well aware, Alpha Legion are a threat, and an imperfect heraldry, or long deceased Chapter coming back from the dead? That's cause for investigation. It's why the Legion of the Damned were hunted by Inquisitors aiming to investigate them, except they could warp out of reality. It's why the survivors of the Abyssal Crusade were kept in quarantine for months.
There's no such thing as "clearly not corrupted by Chaos". Chaos is insidious, and can manifest without appearance. You also forget that you don't need to be covered in spikes and tendrils to be dedicated to Chaos - Alpha Legion are an example, as are the Fallen (in many cases).
So ONLY Amaterasu has any qualms against the Tau? No-one else in the entire Chapter?
Not any more, no.
Was every dissident killed? If so, are you implying that a Space Marines' bonds of brotherhood, the thing they're drilled most into, would give way to this, and your xeno-heretics would murder their best friends like that?
You know that the Webway is ONLY used by Eldar and the super-psychic Thousand Sons, because of that? It's practically impossible to navigate the Webway.
That is correct- but "practically" impossible is not the same as impossible. It definitely isn't as precise as warp travel, but for the 5 or so companies left on T'Gris it was the only way off. Most likely only a handful survived.
Yes, a handful - you have your entire 1st and 4th companies escape in a massive battleship. It's not a case of precise - it's a case of getting lost in there for years, picked off by roaming daemons, Eldar, Tzeentchians, being crushed by the simple alien-ness of it.
How do the TAU, a race unable to understand the Warp, let alone the Webway, have Webway communication devices?
I might have phrased that wrong. I meant to say "that can communicate IN the WARP" but not "USE the warp to communicate". Honestly it was probably an accident, the Tau didn't intend for it to work in the Immeterium, it just happens to.
So the Emperor, the most accomplished mortal scientist in the galaxy had to rely on Astropaths for communication, and had to bind himself or his most powerful son to a glorified electric chair to get communication, yet the Tau, with no actual knowledge of how the Warp even functions or what it even is, can "accidentally" make accurate communication devices better than the Imperials.
If this is the case, why is this not spread completely through the Tau Empire? Why does the Tau still use relay drones in space when they have accidentally mastered Warp communications?
This really does break fluff, I'm sorry to admit. Tau using Warp technology alone, never mind being more efficient than the Imperium or Chaos, is too far.
How can you have a friendly argument when you're actively fighting on both sides?! That's like an American soldier in Nato and an American in ISIS meeting on the battlefield and laughing it all off.
And again - the Tau aren't stupid. If they saw Marines still fighting against them, they would not accept them as allies. The Imperium already would see your guys as heretics.
Furthermore, it is impossible to serve the Empire and the Imperium.
Its more complicated than that. Imagine your two best friends get in a fistfight. Who do you help? Both? Or one?
Okay, let me rephrase my question:
Two soldiers from the same platoon go to war, and one soldier goes turncoat and fights for the enemy. What does the turncoat do? It doesn't matter what the turncoat does, his friend will shoot him because he's a traitor and a threat. If the turncoat doesn't fight back, then he dies, or his new friends will kill him because he won't fight for them. Either way, the turncoat has to pick a side, or neither. There's no way they get both.
If the Reserve Companies are built in the same way as Battle Companies, what makes them a Reserve Company? Normally, a Reserve Company consists of one type of squad or specialisation (all Bikers, all Assault, all Devastator), but that's not like yours at all? Why are they Reserves at all?
Well, their only real purpose is to reinforce missing units (like normal reserve companies) but due to the precarious situation they are in, the reserve companies (who normally are left on T'Gris as defence) need to be able to work as a normal battle company IF NEEDED. That make a little more sense now?
Not really. Why wouldn't I just deploy them as a Battle Company? If they were just to make up missing units, then I'd have them arranged like the current arrangement in the Codex. If they are primarily to act as another Battle Company, then ditch reserve completely, and just pull units from any inactive company - 8th Company is taking losses of Devastators, but the 3rd is replenishing their Assault Marines and has a full complement of Devastators? Send in the 3rd Devastator squad!
If they have a lack of heavy weapons, then how do they have just as many Devastators?
Going Scout -----> Tactical isn't followed at all. Tactical Marines are actually very elite, they've been trained in Assault and Devastator Squads first, and even in those Devastator Squads, they only wield bolters. Tactical is the last stage for a reason, because of the massive tactical flexibility they require.
If the 5 man squads are to train, then isn't that the point of Scouts? You train first as a Scout, then as a Devastator (only wielding a bolter), and then progress into Assault, then Tactical. Your approach works, but instead of having two separate 5 man squads, you should have them put into the Devastators. There's no other reason for it, nothing that specifically says that your method is any different or needed.
The devastator squads use the LAST of the chapters heavy weapons. Thus, only the best trained marines can use them. Also most of them have been augmented/repaired with Tau technology, and require additional training.
Again, being a Devastator =/= having a heavy weapon. In the normal organisation, a Scout is promoted to a Devastator Marine. However, they only wield a bolter, and call out targets for the actually experienced Devastators holding the heavy weapons. A typical Devastator Squad would have a Sergeant, four Marines carrying heavy weaponry, and five newly promoted Marines with bolters. These Marines can experience the battle, but are not as pivotal as the Tactical Marine, and not at as much risk as an Assault Marine. They prove themselves as a Devastator first, and still don't wield a heavy weapon in that position.
Why can this not be done in your arrangement?
Spoiler:
But that's not how it comes across. It comes across like your guys just decided "hey, let's be friends with these guys we're conditioned to hate!". The Tau have no control or corruption, your guys just seem very weak-willed.
Think about how the original traitors were corrupted. A few marines (actually only really Erebus and Kor Phaeron) started preaching in different legions. This fused with the davinites to create the lodges: a small group of seemingly loyal marines who work to get everyone onto their side. When the time is right, and the majority corrupted, they disposed of the "loyalists". In this case, some of the Shadow's Hunters decided their only chance of survival was to join the Tau, and so they did. It might have been tau mind trickery, it might have been desperate space marines, it might have been both.
The original traitors were:
- Corrupted by CHAOS, which actively targets the soul. Chaos corruption is far more potent and extreme than conditioning to a Xenos race.
- Not treated to the same levels of spiritual protection as they are today. Legion Marines were not built to resist Chaos, because it was new and unheard of. In the 41st Millennium, Space Marines going traitor had happened before, and precautions were taken in the form of hypno-conditioning.
- All other Space Marines, getting Space Marines getting to support other Space Marines. In your case, we have Space Marines trying to persuade (for some reason) other Space Marines to abandon their entire philosophy and join a species of aliens. It's just not the same.
If only some of the Chapter supported the idea at first, how did they manage to persuade the entire Chapter, with all their leaders, elders, tradition and conditioning?
If it was entirely Tau mind-control, that is more feasible, but to have the Space Marines all consciously say "let's join these aliens we were born to kill!" looks very bad on the Chapter's mental resove.
They/them
2017/05/06 15:33:26
Subject: The Return of the Extra Heretical Tau/Human Space Marines (part III now, I think...)
Sgt_Smudge, one thing I've learned from my endeavors in writing - when someone presents a piece they've written for critique, they usually want one of two things. They either want to improve their writing, or they want their egos stroked. The OP is showing himself to be the latter sort, as he comes up with progressively more outlandish explanations for why the implausible events in his chapter's fluff happen the way they happen, rather than fixing them so they're not so implausible, and/or getting rid of them as appropriate. I don't see that there's much point in continuing to try and help him. He's just going to continue to try and polish the turd.
Grand.Master.Raziel wrote: Sgt_Smudge, one thing I've learned from my endeavors in writing - when someone presents a piece they've written for critique, they usually want one of two things. They either want to improve their writing, or they want their egos stroked. The OP is showing himself to be the latter sort, as he comes up with progressively more outlandish explanations for why the implausible events in his chapter's fluff happen the way they happen, rather than fixing them so they're not so implausible, and/or getting rid of them as appropriate. I don't see that there's much point in continuing to try and help him. He's just going to continue to try and polish the turd.
I think at this point I'm just waiting on OP to see how they respond to the points raised.
If they want to say "I don't care about your complaints, these are my dudes, and lore be damned", then so be it. But in that case, I'd probably advise from posting it on forums, if you don't want to handle the complaints.
They/them
2017/05/10 01:40:57
Subject: The Return of the Extra Heretical Tau/Human Space Marines (part III now, I think...)
