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 Wyzilla wrote:

 Ouze wrote:
I'm pretty excited about the possibility of female marines now, since there no longer will be any real rationale not to introduce them. Not that there really was before, of course, but now there won't even be the thinnest fluff based justification.

There is zero reason to make female space marines except deplorable inclusiveness for the sake of inclusiveness. Nevermind that we know they're going to be male, there was no female bodies in the pods we saw.

I'm probably gonna regret opening this particular can of worms but......
While I agree the NuMarines are most likely going to be all male, just like there predecessors. If GW did decide to use this opportunity to bypass the decades of fluff inertia about male only Marines, where's the harm in it? All it would need is the odd bare head here and there for the models and a few female pronouns in the fluff.

GoatboyBeta wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Ouze wrote:
I'm pretty excited about the possibility of female marines now, since there no longer will be any real rationale not to introduce them. Not that there really was before, of course, but now there won't even be the thinnest fluff based justification.

There is zero reason to make female space marines except deplorable inclusiveness for the sake of inclusiveness. Nevermind that we know they're going to be male, there was no female bodies in the pods we saw.

I'm probably gonna regret opening this particular can of worms but......
While I agree the NuMarines are most likely going to be all male, just like there predecessors. If GW did decide to use this opportunity to bypass the decades of fluff inertia about male only Marines, where's the harm in it? All it would need is the odd bare head here and there for the models and a few female pronouns in the fluff.

Sure, they can also add in a bunch of male sororitas while they are at it. Because everything is better when you mix up the genders and remove any unique flavor imparted by being single sex!

GoatboyBeta wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Ouze wrote:
I'm pretty excited about the possibility of female marines now, since there no longer will be any real rationale not to introduce them. Not that there really was before, of course, but now there won't even be the thinnest fluff based justification.

There is zero reason to make female space marines except deplorable inclusiveness for the sake of inclusiveness. Nevermind that we know they're going to be male, there was no female bodies in the pods we saw.

I'm probably gonna regret opening this particular can of worms but......
While I agree the NuMarines are most likely going to be all male, just like there predecessors. If GW did decide to use this opportunity to bypass the decades of fluff inertia about male only Marines, where's the harm in it? All it would need is the odd bare head here and there for the models and a few female pronouns in the fluff.

It destroys all the knightly aspects Space Marines carried and doesn't make sense in-universe either so the lore is bad.

GoatboyBeta wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Ouze wrote:
I'm pretty excited about the possibility of female marines now, since there no longer will be any real rationale not to introduce them. Not that there really was before, of course, but now there won't even be the thinnest fluff based justification.

There is zero reason to make female space marines except deplorable inclusiveness for the sake of inclusiveness. Nevermind that we know they're going to be male, there was no female bodies in the pods we saw.

I'm probably gonna regret opening this particular can of worms but......
While I agree the NuMarines are most likely going to be all male, just like there predecessors. If GW did decide to use this opportunity to bypass the decades of fluff inertia about male only Marines, where's the harm in it? All it would need is the odd bare head here and there for the models and a few female pronouns in the fluff.

It will upset a lot of their customers (justified or not - personal opinion is not, but whatever). Worse, if the backlash is sufficiently virulent (and let's be honest, there's a 95% chance it would be epic in its explosiveness), it would shed some extensive light, culturally and socially, on what would appear from the outside to be some extremely entrenched misogyny within the WH40k community (justified or not - personal opinion is that would be true for some, but not all), which would be bad for WH40k's reputation as a game and hit GW's pocketbooks hard.

The nu-marines may not be vat-grown from humans though. They could be Space Marines put into the pods and upgraded to be tougher and stronger. It would explain why they'd be battle ready the moment they step out.

Heck it could be an alternate path for mortally wounded space marines that have enough pieces left that dreadnoughts aren't the only option, and work with the holy warrior fluff. Die a heroic death and you ascend to your fathers side as a true angel of vengeance to return in a new form to smite the foes of Man. I'd dig it.

 Badablack wrote:
The nu-marines may not be vat-grown from humans though. They could be Space Marines put into the pods and upgraded to be tougher and stronger. It would explain why they'd be battle ready the moment they step out.

Heck it could be an alternate path for mortally wounded space marines that have enough pieces left that dreadnoughts aren't the only option, and work with the holy warrior fluff. Die a heroic death and you ascend to your fathers side as a true angel of vengeance to return in a new form to smite the foes of Man. I'd dig it.

they could even make it work for guardsmen. anyone whom sufficantly proves themselves becomes a "Indomatus marine"

Poly Ranger wrote:
So from what I've read on here, apparently the new marines are exactly that - a new type of 'super' marine with a new genecode. Now considering current Marines begin the implant stage ideally at 10-12 years and finish it at around 18 years old, that would suggest it takes 6-8 years to create a marine before any of the rigorous training (that we must assume takes years to achieve super human status). So lets say 10 years (being generous) to have a fully trained combat ready marine.
Guilliman is however creating even more advanced versions, which one would assume would take just as long, if not longer to create. Even if they are vat grown that will still take a good while, then followed by years of training.

The thing is Guilliman needs them NOW. To top that off, GW are releasing them with 8th but have only advanced the story by a few months, maybe a year, through the Gathering storm series. So are the NuMarines going to suddenly appear out of nowhere, is Abaddon going to consolidate for a few years whilst Guilliman builds up his new forces so the NuMarines are ready for the setting... Or is there going to be some other explanation, such as how Corax was granted a way to speed up the process for normal Marines (look how that ended up - and there are still plenty of Alpha Legion around to do it again)?

Scout Training occur during the implantation process. A Space Marine Scout is one who has all other special organ except the Black Carapace. When they receive it, they become full fledge Space Marines. They are around 18 years old at that point. Yes, the Imperium can count amongst its heroes and legends child soldiers. It would take only a two or three years to produce a New Marine provided you have a teenager candidate. The decades of training before becoming a Space Marines who are centuries old is hyberbolic. Only a rare few get to see war for centuries, most die well before that.

Yep regretted that

 Unusual Suspect wrote:
It will upset a lot of their customers (justified or not - personal opinion is not, but whatever). Worse, if the backlash is sufficiently virulent (and let's be honest, there's a 95% chance it would be epic in its explosiveness), it would shed some extensive light, culturally and socially, on what would appear from the outside to be some extremely entrenched misogyny within the WH40k community (justified or not - personal opinion is that would be true for some, but not all), which would be bad for WH40k's reputation as a game and hit GW's pocketbooks hard.

Looks like your not far off the mark about the response unfortunately.

 Unusual Suspect wrote:

It will upset a lot of their customers (justified or not - personal opinion is not, but whatever). Worse, if the backlash is sufficiently virulent (and let's be honest, there's a 95% chance it would be epic in its explosiveness), it would shed some extensive light, culturally and socially, on what would appear from the outside to be some extremely entrenched misogyny within the WH40k community (justified or not - personal opinion is that would be true for some, but not all), which would be bad for WH40k's reputation as a game and hit GW's pocketbooks hard.

That's some solid insight there. Agreed on all fronts.

New Dreadnaught technology.
By *This is a massive stretch on a lot of levels* a combination of accumulated Necron and remaining Dreadnought technology worthy battle brothers who are literally only surviving organs are being put back in the fighting in cybernetic bodies with living metal armour.
Only little more human than the undead xenos filth Necrons these NuMarines are despised as heretech rather than venerated like their Dreadnaught counterparts. As worthy Ultramarine minds the NuMarines are eager to prove themselves as powerful and true weapons of the Imperium.

 Ouze wrote:
I'm pretty excited about the possibility of female marines now, since there no longer will be any real rationale not to introduce them. Not that there really was before, of course, but now there won't even be the thinnest fluff based justification.

Female marines.

So...Greed and a good helping of Derp.

In "Deliverance Lost", Corax was able to develop an improved Geneseed that could turn recruits into full Marines in a matter of weeks. Combat training was imparted as instinctive muscle memory. The original "Raptors" were very successful and the only reason Corax didn't raise a Legion of them was because the Alpha Legion infiltrators contaminated the new geneseed.

Corax was able to improve the geneseed thanks to a psychic download of the necessary knowledge from the Emperor. I think Gulliman's audience with the Emperor probably gave him the same information necessary to create Astartes 2.0 in a similar timeframe.

With the talk in the trailer of restoring chapters I don't think they will be existing Marines with an upgrade, at least not the regular troopers. Having an officer core or advisers drawn from existing Astartes forces(boosted or not) would be interesting.

 Karhedron wrote:
In "Deliverance Lost", Corax was able to develop an improved Geneseed that could turn recruits into full Marines in a matter of weeks. Combat training was imparted as instinctive muscle memory. The original "Raptors" were very successful and the only reason Corax didn't raise a Legion of them was because the Alpha Legion infiltrators contaminated the new geneseed.

Corax was able to improve the geneseed thanks to a psychic download of the necessary knowledge from the Emperor. I think Gulliman's audience with the Emperor probably gave him the same information necessary to create Astartes 2.0 in a similar timeframe.

Alternatively, it's possible that since the G is himself the biotemplate of the smurfs, he can just rip bits out of himself to *restore* the geneseed purity and effectiveness of smurfs the galaxy over. If geneseed decay, which is conveniently handwaved away as plot dictates can occurr even to the ultrasmurfs with their famous geno-stability, then rebooting/updating the process from the original could justify physiological changes on hardened veterans in a short while.

Which means the smurfs get to be special until the other primarchs show up. Again.

The raven legion made a bunch of marines in like a weekend "he used what the emp had improved it and poof". So it should not be to hard lol

Haven't kept up with all the new stuff, but if girlyman does the "supermarine thing" - couldnt it be that the "supermarines" will be distributed to the chapters and act as commanders? Basically so that every chapter or even company can have their own "little primarch" on the battlefield?

 Keep wrote:
Haven't kept up with all the new stuff, but if girlyman does the "supermarine thing" - couldnt it be that the "supermarines" will be distributed to the chapters and act as commanders? Basically so that every chapter or even company can have their own "little primarch" on the battlefield?

I hope not, that would be a regression to the "Ultramarines are the best at everything" stuff in the worst possible way. It would imply that the person most suited to command, say, the Salamanders in combat is an Ultramarine (because they're made from Guilliman) and not a Salamander. Likewise for other chapters.

Having male-only space marines isn't misogynic, it's pragmatic. Misogyny by definition is a dislike and/or contempt for women. Being exclusive doesn't mean you hold malice towards the opposite gender. It would be a shame to throw 30 years of fluff in the trash to appease those who haven't bothered to read it. Re-writing "history" to fit current societal trends is a huge disservice to the saga. This isn't Warhammer 2k. It's Warhammer 40k, and in the future the setting is different. End stop.

I am feeling much trepidation about the nu-marines myself. Even the Deliverence Lost story arc gave me heebie-jeebies.I hope they aren't hoisted on us under the guise of an optional unit but *wink wink* "Your army would be way cooler if you replaced all you space marines with these new ones." I took a lot of time with mine, updating them all with Forgeworld sets, and if they suddenly look dated and squatty on the tabletop my butthurt meter will be red-lined.

 SolidOakie wrote:
Having male-only space marines isn't misogynic, it's pragmatic. Misogyny by definition is a dislike and/or contempt for women. Being exclusive doesn't mean you hold malice towards the opposite gender. It would be a shame to throw 30 years of fluff in the trash to appease those who haven't bothered to read it. Re-writing "history" to fit current societal trends is a huge disservice to the saga. This isn't Warhammer 2k. It's Warhammer 40k, and in the future the setting is different. End stop.

I am feeling much trepidation about the nu-marines myself. Even the Deliverence Lost story arc gave me heebie-jeebies.I hope they aren't hoisted on us under the guise of an optional unit but *wink wink* "Your army would be way cooler if you replaced all you space marines with these new ones." I took a lot of time with mine, updating them all with Forgeworld sets, and if they suddenly look dated and squatty on the tabletop my butthurt meter will be red-lined.

So what about women makes them unfit to be marines?

 JNAProductions wrote:

 SolidOakie wrote:
Having male-only space marines isn't misogynic, it's pragmatic. Misogyny by definition is a dislike and/or contempt for women. Being exclusive doesn't mean you hold malice towards the opposite gender. It would be a shame to throw 30 years of fluff in the trash to appease those who haven't bothered to read it. Re-writing "history" to fit current societal trends is a huge disservice to the saga. This isn't Warhammer 2k. It's Warhammer 40k, and in the future the setting is different. End stop.

I am feeling much trepidation about the nu-marines myself. Even the Deliverence Lost story arc gave me heebie-jeebies.I hope they aren't hoisted on us under the guise of an optional unit but *wink wink* "Your army would be way cooler if you replaced all you space marines with these new ones." I took a lot of time with mine, updating them all with Forgeworld sets, and if they suddenly look dated and squatty on the tabletop my butthurt meter will be red-lined.

So what about women makes them unfit to be marines?

Men have more muscle mass than women. Also, their muscle is stronger than women's. Women are hormonally different. Women incur injuries easier than men, given the same load standards. There's dozens of other reasons. In the context of 40k, different chapters are all alike. A man and a woman aren't alike. A male Imperial Fist and a female Imperial Fist arent cohesive. This isn't misogyny. It is the fate of the Imperium.

I think the suspicion is that it's misogyny on the behalf of the players not the fluff that is the problem. Looking at nerd culture over the past few years it's a something I'd be very weary of too. Last thing they need is Twitter storms and their fans sending disgusting threats etc. Sad really.

 SolidOakie wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 SolidOakie wrote:
Having male-only space marines isn't misogynic, it's pragmatic. Misogyny by definition is a dislike and/or contempt for women. Being exclusive doesn't mean you hold malice towards the opposite gender. It would be a shame to throw 30 years of fluff in the trash to appease those who haven't bothered to read it. Re-writing "history" to fit current societal trends is a huge disservice to the saga. This isn't Warhammer 2k. It's Warhammer 40k, and in the future the setting is different. End stop.

I am feeling much trepidation about the nu-marines myself. Even the Deliverence Lost story arc gave me heebie-jeebies.I hope they aren't hoisted on us under the guise of an optional unit but *wink wink* "Your army would be way cooler if you replaced all you space marines with these new ones." I took a lot of time with mine, updating them all with Forgeworld sets, and if they suddenly look dated and squatty on the tabletop my butthurt meter will be red-lined.

So what about women makes them unfit to be marines?

Men have more muscle mass than women. Also, their muscle is stronger than women's. Women are hormonally different. Women incur injuries easier than men, given the same load standards. There's dozens of other reasons. In the context of 40k, different chapters are all alike. A man and a woman aren't alike. A male Imperial Fist and a female Imperial Fist arent cohesive. This isn't misogyny. It is the fate of the Imperium.

And imperial genetic engineering-that produces someone who punches as hard as a tank explodes, can spit acid, and run for literal days on end and still be battle ready-can't account for the minor differences between men and women?

 JNAProductions wrote:

 SolidOakie wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 SolidOakie wrote:
Having male-only space marines isn't misogynic, it's pragmatic. Misogyny by definition is a dislike and/or contempt for women. Being exclusive doesn't mean you hold malice towards the opposite gender. It would be a shame to throw 30 years of fluff in the trash to appease those who haven't bothered to read it. Re-writing "history" to fit current societal trends is a huge disservice to the saga. This isn't Warhammer 2k. It's Warhammer 40k, and in the future the setting is different. End stop.

I am feeling much trepidation about the nu-marines myself. Even the Deliverence Lost story arc gave me heebie-jeebies.I hope they aren't hoisted on us under the guise of an optional unit but *wink wink* "Your army would be way cooler if you replaced all you space marines with these new ones." I took a lot of time with mine, updating them all with Forgeworld sets, and if they suddenly look dated and squatty on the tabletop my butthurt meter will be red-lined.

So what about women makes them unfit to be marines?

Men have more muscle mass than women. Also, their muscle is stronger than women's. Women are hormonally different. Women incur injuries easier than men, given the same load standards. There's dozens of other reasons. In the context of 40k, different chapters are all alike. A man and a woman aren't alike. A male Imperial Fist and a female Imperial Fist arent cohesive. This isn't misogyny. It is the fate of the Imperium.

And imperial genetic engineering-that produces someone who punches as hard as a tank explodes, can spit acid, and run for literal days on end and still be battle ready-can't account for the minor differences between men and women?

No, because they aren't minor differences. Take someone like Rhonda Rousey. She is a dangerous woman, and could take any man on this board. She has trained to fight her entire life, and if she wanted to literally kill us, she could. But take a male version of her, someone with her genetics, her training, her talent, her entire history. Basically a male duplicate of her. He would defeat her. There's male mma and female mma for a reason. There's the WNBA and the NBA for a reason. There are separate events for every Olympics competition for a reason. When the Marine Corps standardised physical fitness requirements for men and women in combat roles, 6 out of 7 women failed the test. If you upgrade a woman by 1000 percent, and upgrade a man by 1000 percent, who would win? If men compete physically with women, men outperform them. This isn't debatable. Plus take into account the Imperium recruiting suitable initiates and spending years of resources, time and energy on them. Why would you choose initiates that start out disadvantaged? There is no logical reason to pick say 1000 women from Nocturne to turn into space marines, when the likelihood of them falling out/dying is greater than their male counterparts. There are plenty of noble roles for females in the 40k universe. Deciding to make female space marines to reflect bizarre "men and women aren't different in any way" social trends would be a travesty to the universe. In the 41st millennium, might makes right. Today, in the second millennium, being a victim, being oppressed, being disadvantaged, being in any sort of minority group makes right. If we injected today's social norms and standards into the 41st millennium, the entire saga shifts into something else entirely. It wouldn't be 40k anymore. I for one escape into Warhammer to avoid the silliness of today. It's above today's hassles and pettiness. Its canon should be protected.

From a practical standpoint - GW is all about (okay, partially about) making products there has been a demand for recently. Big marines are just GW making "true scale" marines to scratch the market itch, in my opinion. They will have some fluff to explain using them alongside traditional marines, likely using custodes gene seed or something like it. But, I bet they fully anticipate true scale enthusiasts using them as normal marines, and may make them super-marines to facilitate that kind of movie-marine game play.

 Badablack wrote:
The nu-marines may not be vat-grown from humans though. They could be Space Marines put into the pods and upgraded to be tougher and stronger. It would explain why they'd be battle ready the moment they step out.

Heck it could be an alternate path for mortally wounded space marines that have enough pieces left that dreadnoughts aren't the only option, and work with the holy warrior fluff. Die a heroic death and you ascend to your fathers side as a true angel of vengeance to return in a new form to smite the foes of Man. I'd dig it.

Now that's a good way to include them. Knowing GW though, they're going to make it super lame and induce a lot of fan rage.

And for all the people who complain about the lack of female space marines, I wonder how tiring it is trying to jump on the bandwagon. It's tiring as hell reading complaints about trying to include, what people SHOULD know, is a terrible idea.

 SolidOakie wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 SolidOakie wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 SolidOakie wrote:
Having male-only space marines isn't misogynic, it's pragmatic. Misogyny by definition is a dislike and/or contempt for women. Being exclusive doesn't mean you hold malice towards the opposite gender. It would be a shame to throw 30 years of fluff in the trash to appease those who haven't bothered to read it. Re-writing "history" to fit current societal trends is a huge disservice to the saga. This isn't Warhammer 2k. It's Warhammer 40k, and in the future the setting is different. End stop.

I am feeling much trepidation about the nu-marines myself. Even the Deliverence Lost story arc gave me heebie-jeebies.I hope they aren't hoisted on us under the guise of an optional unit but *wink wink* "Your army would be way cooler if you replaced all you space marines with these new ones." I took a lot of time with mine, updating them all with Forgeworld sets, and if they suddenly look dated and squatty on the tabletop my butthurt meter will be red-lined.

So what about women makes them unfit to be marines?

Men have more muscle mass than women. Also, their muscle is stronger than women's. Women are hormonally different. Women incur injuries easier than men, given the same load standards. There's dozens of other reasons. In the context of 40k, different chapters are all alike. A man and a woman aren't alike. A male Imperial Fist and a female Imperial Fist arent cohesive. This isn't misogyny. It is the fate of the Imperium.

And imperial genetic engineering-that produces someone who punches as hard as a tank explodes, can spit acid, and run for literal days on end and still be battle ready-can't account for the minor differences between men and women?

No, because they aren't minor differences. Take someone like Rhonda Rousey. She is a dangerous woman, and could take any man on this board. She has trained to fight her entire life, and if she wanted to literally kill us, she could. But take a male version of her, someone with her genetics, her training, her talent, her entire history. Basically a male duplicate of her. He would defeat her. There's male mma and female mma for a reason. There's the WNBA and the NBA for a reason. There are separate events for every Olympics competition for a reason. When the Marine Corps standardised physical fitness requirements for men and women in combat roles, 6 out of 7 women failed the test. If you upgrade a woman by 1000 percent, and upgrade a man by 1000 percent, who would win? If men compete physically with women, men outperform them. This isn't debatable. Plus take into account the Imperium recruiting suitable initiates and spending years of resources, time and energy on them. Why would you choose initiates that start out disadvantaged? There is no logical reason to pick say 1000 women from Nocturne to turn into space marines, when the likelihood of them falling out/dying is greater than their male counterparts. There are plenty of noble roles for females in the 40k universe. Deciding to make female space marines to reflect bizarre "men and women aren't different in any way" social trends would be a travesty to the universe. In the 41st millennium, might makes right. Today, in the second millennium, being a victim, being oppressed, being disadvantaged, being in any sort of minority group makes right. If we injected today's social norms and standards into the 41st millennium, the entire saga shifts into something else entirely. It wouldn't be 40k anymore. I for one escape into Warhammer to avoid the silliness of today. It's above today's hassles and pettiness. Its canon should be protected.

In terms of *as a species* male and female humans muscle mass is not drastically different. In terms of outliers your have around 1/3 of the female population stronger than the average male and about 1/3rd of the male population weaker than the average female (or something along those lines, it's been a while since I studied it, the point is the crossover is larger than most people believe).

Space marines simply aren't the strongest humanity has to offer. I'm sure many of them are simply those who have survived recruitment rituals, tests and transplant processes. It's been said time and time again, that Space Marines being male has nothing to do with physical strength. It's about the whole gene seed and implant processes to be incompatible with females. Aka it simply will not work. Yes many people will get that far through some degree of strength, but strength of spirit and mind is also required in the 41st millennium to become a space marine.

Now I'm sure if the Imperium had manpower issues then they possible may try to develop ways to create female space marines, but we all know it does not have manpower issues in the slightest. I partially expect Guilliman makin nu marines is simply a way to speed up or mass make new space marines. The main problem with the chapter system is they are so small making new marines is rather inefficient .

The Imperium of Man, where people accept that we can implant organs into space marines that let them eat people to gain their memories but can't accept that technology exists that can turn women into giant genetically modified super warriors.

Space Marine recruits, before implementation, simply cannot be the 'strongest' human specimens. That makes no sense since they all grow up on worlds very inimical to human life with, no doubt, poor diets.

Remember living in a harsh enviroment does not automatically, at all, translate into being physically superior to other humans. Indeed the advent of proper diet and other features are more important. Living in an extreme enviroment does not make you stronger, usually, than people living in a comfortable area with access to advanced medical technology, good diet and exercise routines and machinary.

And if we're talking about the implementation process doing 90% of the work then really it should all just come down to that implementation.

Going back to the original post, it looks like the answer has arrived. The new Primaris Marines have been slowly cooking on Mars for the last 9000 years under the tender care of Belisarius Cawl. Looks like Guilliman has founded new Chapters composed entirely of these guys but has also sent out some to reinforce existing Chapters.

Most interestingly, they use the Geneseed of their appropriate Primarch meaning BA and SW Primaris Marines have the geneseed of Sanguinius and Russ respectively

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/15/a-new-breed-of-hero-may15gw-homepage-post-1/

Aww man. From the email newsletter: 'each Primaris Space Marine is the pinnacle of 10,000 years of science, experimentation, and distilled military knowledge.'

Have they even read the background of 40k?

10,000 years of science? What is this? Star Trek? It's been 10,000 years of inexorable scientific and technological decay as the principles of scientific reasoning have been replaced with religious dogma and fanaticism.

Ah well. At least it'll be easier to make Truescale Marines now.