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BrianDavion wrote:

 Ginsu33 wrote:

Solar-powered_chainsword wrote:
Plus, by allowing women you're doubling the potential recruit force you have.

There has never been a man-power shortage in the Imperium, so trying to multiply their recruitment by taking away women who would probably be better used for having families/kids doesn't seem sound to me. It makes more sense with the Imperial Guard, their kids grow up to serve the Regiment they were born in, colonize worlds reclaimed etc.

But these Marines, the Females you throw in lose their production capability, better for males to be expendable IMO.

But if these are test tube babies, then maybe it doesn't matter.

this is doubly true when presumably certain genetic traits are required to become a marine take both genders in and you'll likely breed those traits out of the population.

When taking into account the sheer population size of the Imperium, taking a few woman out of the pool wouldn't have much effect, and it's not like the Imperium is lacking in pure population. Space Marine Aspirants tend to be chosen from the toughest warriors, a pool that would definitely be increased by allowing women to join. The Imperium's not lacking raw numbers as we can see from the vastly overpopulated hive worlds, but it could definitely use a boost in potential psychopathic warriors to recruit from.

As for breeding out the required genes, if you only need one parent to have the genes to pass them on, you'd be far better taking women than men. A woman could only have a single child every nine months, a very happy man could have far, far more. Sure, it might be that only women can pass it on, but as that's never been even slightly alluded to in fluff that's just seem like a strange way to try block women out needlessly.

In regards to test tube babies, as many have said it's be a far more interesting idea than a potential "Just like Oldmarines but better!" approach. Creatures that were never once human would break the already thin connection Space Marines have to humanity, and could raise a lot of interesting ethical questions. Honestly, I'd prefer these NuMarines to be a bunch of psychotic, asexual grunts created entirely to fight and die without ever once knowing what it was to be human. Otherwise, it's simply a thing of "We had these badass super-soldiers, and now we have SUPER badass super-soldiers!"

Does anyone feel that the nuMarines were heavily influenced by the Spartan program of HALO?

I get that sort of vibe and the whole nuMarine just feels off - in the hopebright sort of feel mentioned earlier.

Solar-powered_chainsword wrote:

In regards to test tube babies, as many have said it's be a far more interesting idea than a potential "Just like Oldmarines but better!" approach. Creatures that were never once human would break the already thin connection Space Marines have to humanity, and could raise a lot of interesting ethical questions. Honestly, I'd prefer these NuMarines to be a bunch of psychotic, asexual grunts created entirely to fight and die without ever once knowing what it was to be human. Otherwise, it's simply a thing of "We had these badass super-soldiers, and now we have SUPER badass super-soldiers!"

Yeah absolutely there's definite potential that they seem to be quite neatly skirting around. Make them sinister. Something that you could absolutely see evolving into a Men of Iron-style threat as they steadily realise just how not-human they are something that hints at a future where Oldmarines might end up hunted and hounded by their inhuman replacements (as the Thunder Warriors were before them).

Just a little hint that the noblebright sheen might only be skin-deep


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Apologies for the double-post, but I'd say less psychotic like the World Eaters. More cold. Calculating. Inhuman.

Actually, there's a brilliant bit from a game called Banner Saga that's coming to mind as a taster of what I'm thinking. Spoilered as it's a plot point:



Now, apply that to the Numarines who aren't human in the slightest, and you might be getting somewhere

maybe, the problem is that with purely vat born marines, there is less room for individual chapters to have their own cultures etc. apparently per the live stream, the process allows for standard Marines to be upgraded, Primaris Marines to be created via the tradtional methods. or Primaris marines to be grown in a Vat. my GUT feeling is most eistablished chapters will create Marines normally, and eaither upgrade to Primairs during creation, or use Primiarus as a special upgrade for their veterns. new chapters may not care and simply go with the vat born approuch if it's more efficant.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Stormonu wrote:
Does anyone feel that the nuMarines were heavily influenced by the Spartan program of HALO?

I get that sort of vibe and the whole nuMarine just feels off - in the hopebright sort of feel mentioned earlier.

not really. the SPARTAN program has more in common with the standard Marine fluff, children taken into the program, trained from childhood to be soldiers, subjected to genetic enhancments that not all of them will live through, and some whom do will be crippled as a result. yeah the spartans in Halo are pretty much just another take on space Marines.

I'm a bit worried about what the Numarines will mean for the old marines in the 40k imperium.

I guess I will hold judgment until the new fluff is rolled out completely and GW has a chance to iron out the kinks in the lore.

How will there be a semblance of balance kept between chaos and IoM with Gulliman being able to roll out thousands, if not millions of super soldiers that are supposedly superior to the original marines?

Granted, im glad the storyline is advancing, and at least 1 loyalist primarch is back, but this Numarine thing seems like it may be a bad idea.

I too am worried. They said they weren't removing the setting like they did with WHFB. They said the Primaris Marines aren't going to replace the regular old marines. But so far it doesn't add up. I'm reminded about how the eldar are supposedly a dying race and there are enough eldar being born to keep up with the amount dying in various stories. The best role of these primaris marines is to die in battle while actual marines with history and personality get angry.

I had an interesting thought about primaris marines in the fluff. We know that every chapter will get them. But if the Dark Angels end up with a bunch of NuMarines added to their chapter, that puts their secrecy into severe jeopardy. The tension between the DA who are trying to hunt down the Fallen in secret and the primaris marines who keep asking if they can tag along with the deathwing on their "reconoissance missions" (after all, the NuMarines are elite well-equipped warriors who should be justified in helping) and wondering why almost none of them are getting promoted into the DA inner circles could make for a really interesting novel.

 gnome_idea_what wrote:
I had an interesting thought about primaris marines in the fluff. We know that every chapter will get them. But if the Dark Angels end up with a bunch of NuMarines added to their chapter, that puts their secrecy into severe jeopardy. The tension between the DA who are trying to hunt down the Fallen in secret and the primaris marines who keep asking if they can tag along with the deathwing on their "reconoissance missions" (after all, the NuMarines are elite well-equipped warriors who should be justified in helping) and wondering why almost none of them are getting promoted into the DA inner circles could make for a really interesting novel.

this assumes that they wouldn't fully intergrate. this seems to be a new founding, so it's possiable each chapter is involved in these new marines right from creation. there is a LOT we don't know.

Well the QA has answered most of this:
* Primaris are either vat grown, created old style geneseed implantment, or upgraded from old marines

* Indomitus Crusade was made partly so Gulliman can travel the galaxy to provide Primaris technology to old chapters

* Some chapters will fully integrate Primaris in previous companies, some will fully upgrade whole chapter to Primaris, some will have companies of Primaris (not mix), and some won't have Primaris at all (at least at first). This not only represents different chapters potential distrust/wariness​ of the Primaris program, but it allows you to decide for your chapter.

* Primaris are more resistant to chaos corruption, but far from fully incorruptible.

* Effects of previous mutations will/may still effect Primaris

* a new founding of chapters was made by Gulliman with only Primaris.

I suspect all the cannon chapters are gonna run a mix and or primaris companies to hedge bets, it's be a partiuclarly bold move for GW to say "dark angels refuse to use them" that said, if the crussade is to diseminate this tech, the obvious question is "what of the blood angels?"

BrianDavion wrote:
I suspect all the cannon chapters are gonna run a mix and or primaris companies to hedge bets, it's be a partiuclarly bold move for GW to say "dark angels refuse to use them" that said, if the crussade is to diseminate this tech, the obvious question is "what of the blood angels?"

There is ways through the warp rift they said, even if they are only temporary and not very reliable.

While I understand why GW did it, IMO its a shame that existing Marines can be upgraded. Having the "old dogs" training, leading and fighting alongside the Primaris while facing there own potential obsolescence is a cool story hook.

GoatboyBeta wrote:
While I understand why GW did it, IMO its a shame that existing Marines can be upgraded. Having the "old dogs" training, leading and fighting alongside the Primaris while facing there own potential obsolescence is a cool story hook.

Maybe on the other hand, if they made them unable to upgrade GW would be pretty much telling us "all those finecast space marine characters? yeah no chance they'll EVER be updated"

BrianDavion wrote:

GoatboyBeta wrote:
While I understand why GW did it, IMO its a shame that existing Marines can be upgraded. Having the "old dogs" training, leading and fighting alongside the Primaris while facing there own potential obsolescence is a cool story hook.

Maybe on the other hand, if they made them unable to upgrade GW would be pretty much telling us "all those finecast space marine characters? yeah no chance they'll EVER be updated"

Oh I totally get why. Having a huge swath of established characters(and players own creations) either killed off and replaced or effectively downgraded is a potential gak storm that I don't blame GW for wanting to avoid. But personally how such accomplished and legendary warriors would have reacted to "the new order" would have been really interesting. Who would have accepted it and would they do so gladly or with a heavy heart? Who would have rejected it and what would they do? Fight even harder to prove there worth, or turn against those they feel have betrayed them? Maybe we will still get some of this, we still don't know what upgrading to Primaris entails. The process could be dangerous for the subject or have side effects, it could be too prohibitively long or expensive to offer to every Marine, or some Astartes may not be compatible. I guess time will tell and there is still a lot of potential with the direction GW have chosen, but handing out Primaris upgrades to every one feels like a wasted narrative opportunity.

GoatboyBeta wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

GoatboyBeta wrote:
While I understand why GW did it, IMO its a shame that existing Marines can be upgraded. Having the "old dogs" training, leading and fighting alongside the Primaris while facing there own potential obsolescence is a cool story hook.

Maybe on the other hand, if they made them unable to upgrade GW would be pretty much telling us "all those finecast space marine characters? yeah no chance they'll EVER be updated"

Oh I totally get why. Having a huge swath of established characters(and players own creations) either killed off and replaced or effectively downgraded is a potential gak storm that I don't blame GW for wanting to avoid. But personally how such accomplished and legendary warriors would have reacted to "the new order" would have been really interesting. Who would have accepted it and would they do so gladly or with a heavy heart? Who would have rejected it and what would they do? Fight even harder to prove there worth, or turn against those they feel have betrayed them? Maybe we will still get some of this, we still don't know what upgrading to Primaris entails. The process could be dangerous for the subject or have side effects, it could be too prohibitively long or expensive to offer to every Marine, or some Astartes may not be compatible. I guess time will tell and there is still a lot of potential with the direction GW have chosen, but handing out Primaris upgrades to every one feels like a wasted narrative opportunity.

I could see conflcit still arising, especially if Gulliman changes the codex astartes. More Conservitive minded chapters might resist that, I doubt the Ultramarines would but I could see the Hammers of Dorn for example

I imagine there will be alot of iron hands with disproportionate metal limbs after the treatment

 Rippy wrote:
I imagine there will be alot of iron hands with disproportionate metal limbs after the treatment

I'm sure they'd get a replacement put together.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Rippy wrote:
I imagine there will be alot of iron hands with disproportionate metal limbs after the treatment

I'm sure they'd get a replacement put together.

Yes, I thought the laughing face at the end would have covered that as a joke.

BrianDavion wrote:
maybe, the problem is that with purely vat born marines, there is less room for individual chapters to have their own cultures etc. apparently per the live stream, the process allows for standard Marines to be upgraded, Primaris Marines to be created via the tradtional methods. or Primaris marines to be grown in a Vat. my GUT feeling is most eistablished chapters will create Marines normally, and eaither upgrade to Primairs during creation, or use Primiarus as a special upgrade for their veterns. new chapters may not care and simply go with the vat born approuch if it's more efficant.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Stormonu wrote:
Does anyone feel that the nuMarines were heavily influenced by the Spartan program of HALO?

I get that sort of vibe and the whole nuMarine just feels off - in the hopebright sort of feel mentioned earlier.

not really. the SPARTAN program has more in common with the standard Marine fluff, children taken into the program, trained from childhood to be soldiers, subjected to genetic enhancments that not all of them will live through, and some whom do will be crippled as a result. yeah the spartans in Halo are pretty much just another take on space Marines.

Oh god, yes! The fact marines can be upgraded means old marines will be phased out in a few years. It's a good thing, because there's only room for one marine anyway.

There is a precedent for time manipulation with the grey knights and the titan moon. voila magic numarines.

peirceg wrote:
There is a precedent for time manipulation with the grey knights and the titan moon. voila magic numarines.

Can you please elaborate?

Edit: nevermind, refreshed myself on Grey Knights fluff. I think I pushed it from my mind because it's pretty bad.

 Rippy wrote:

peirceg wrote:
There is a precedent for time manipulation with the grey knights and the titan moon. voila magic numarines.

Can you please elaborate?

Edit: nevermind, refreshed myself on Grey Knights fluff. I think I pushed it from my mind because it's pretty bad.

in fairness we've long known the warp alters the flow of time etc. the idea that you might be able to if you knew eneugh about it (and Malcador was proably second only to the Emperor in knowledge of matters of the warp) use that to your advantage really isn't that odd. that said, we dunno how much time will have passed from the end of GS3 to the beginning of 8th edition. they could do a 100 year time jump for all we know