Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

BomBomHotdog wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Morale triggering and producing more casualties as the result of any single casualty...extremely open to abuse to me. No idea how it works in AoS, but it feels very easy to force a ridiculous number of tests just with stuff like rhino or drop pod stormbolters plinking off random dudes from different units, particularly against armies like DE or IG.

It also means that, particularly for lower Ld armies, anything an opponent shoots below half health might as well just be taken off the table then and there, and larger units that take lots of casualties can autolose absurd numbers of models. This seems to really promote high Ld small model count MSU lists that Morale wont significantly affect, while units relying on large model counts will basically be free casualty piñatas.

Not a fan...

In my experience hoards do fine with this mechanic. Yeah they tend to lose far more models then more elite units, but they also tend to be able to mitigate that by sheer volume. It's actually not nearly as bad as you think it is. I mean, to force a large unit to take a substantial amount of losses in the Morale phase you need to focus it to the point where its basically almost dead in one turn anyway. That takes up a lot of fire power and probably a charge or two. Also, taking only one or two models here and there really wont force any kind of test anywhere. You would need to kill, on average, 4-5 models out of a unit to even have a chance at them loosing even 1 or 2 models out of the unit, and they still have a chance to pass. So while MSUs can be stronger against Morale they might not be as effective overall because of a lack of numbers (less shooting and less combat attacks) and can be easier to simply wipe out.

maybe the random plinking wont be such a huge deal, but does seem something potentially abusable.

That said, unless there is some bonus for large units, it should be relatively easy to break a horde unit.

Force a 30 strong Boyz mob to take 12 casualties, say they're Ld7, they roll a 4, take 9 more and you've just increased the casualties they took by 75% and combat effective mob of 18 Boyz is now no longer combat effective mob at 9 Boyz.

Generally AoS has protections for hordes, as well as bubbles that leaders can put out.

For Orks, I can easily see a rule of +1 Ld per 10 models. Toss in some rule of a bosspole, or the presence of a nearby boss to fortify that further, and the Ork horde suddenly gains a fair amount of morale resilience.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Galef wrote:
I like this method a lot. But it should mean that Horde units need to either get some form of boost (like higher LD for having more models) or are much cheaper in comparison to "Elilte" units.

I respectfully disagree - mainly because with the loss of template weapons, there is little downside to large blobs of units.

I also like this as an answer to tarpits.

In AoS, you get +1 to your Ld for every 10 models you have in the unit. So a unit of 30, who have 5 Ld normally, would have 8. I'd be surprised if they didn't have that in this too. Also, most armies get ways to boost their moral with things like banners or leaders or other special rules. Expect characters like Commissars to be useful again and even platoon standards!
It works very well in AoS and really helps speed up the game, simplifying a very tedious aspect of previous editions, while boosting things in the process.

Actually, on the subject of hordes, it should also be noted that if something is usually seen or used as a horde in AoS, there are lots of buffs that come with adding more and more models to that unit. The example I offer up is the humble zombie:

If you have 1-10 zombies, they hit on 6+ and wound on 6+
11-20: 5+ and 5+
21-30: 4+ and 4+
31+: 3+ and 3+

Now that can easily apply to Orks as well. And add serious value to a horde.

This is bad news for IG, Orks, and Nids

KayTwo wrote:
This is bad news for IG, Orks, and Nids

Let's not forget that most weapons (like Bolters) are likely to be AP 0, conbine with Cover granting a bonus to Armour saves, this very well could mean less casualties over a given turn, thus less models lost at the end.
One of the reasons these armies suffered in the past was because everyone's main weapon was at least AP5 and thus never allowed for armour save. 8th will allow these armies more chance for armour saves.

Having played Daemons the entire time Instability has existed, I can say from experience that losing models to LD tests isn't that bad if you have good tactics to mitigate it.
Speaking of Instability, this change to Moral makes me think that Instability may be no more since normal Moral now serves the same function.

-

 Galef wrote:

KayTwo wrote:
This is bad news for IG, Orks, and Nids

Let's not forget that most weapons (like Bolters) are likely to be AP 0, conbine with Cover granting a bonus to Armour saves, this very well could mean less casualties over a given turn, thus less models lost at the end.

Having played Daemons the entire time Instability has existed, I can say from experience that losing models to LD tests isn't that bad if you have good tactics to mitigate it.
Speaking of Instability, this change to Moral makes me think that Instability may be no more since normal Moral now serves the same function.

-

If Shadow War is any reference, they may be AP-1.

I have no doubt that many weapons will have AP -1, -2, etc
But if Bolters are AP0, so will most other armies generic main weapons.

The only basic weapons I can think of that might be AP -1 would be Eldar Shuriken weapons or Necron Gauss weapons

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Galef wrote:

KayTwo wrote:
This is bad news for IG, Orks, and Nids

Let's not forget that most weapons (like Bolters) are likely to be AP 0, conbine with Cover granting a bonus to Armour saves, this very well could mean less casualties over a given turn, thus less models lost at the end.

Having played Daemons the entire time Instability has existed, I can say from experience that losing models to LD tests isn't that bad if you have good tactics to mitigate it.
Speaking of Instability, this change to Moral makes me think that Instability may be no more since normal Moral now serves the same function.

-

If Shadow War is any reference, they may be AP-1.

Nope. They're AP 0.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/04/26/warhammer-40000-weaponsgw-homepage-post-4/

 Galef wrote:
I have no doubt that many weapons will have AP -1, -2, etc
But if Bolters are AP0, so will most other armies generic main weapons.

The only basic weapons I can think of that might be AP -1 would be Eldar Shuriken weapons or Necron Gauss weapons

I stand corrected

And i was worried i'd get to use my 120+ choppaboyz. Phew.

For gak's sake what is even the point of having a morale system that doesn't DO anything? We just remove models now? Why not just completely get rid of morale, massively help out armies like Orks or Guard, and supply that fluffy "literally half GW's armies should have fearless" justification?

People keep talking about leadership buffs like that would mean something. Why?

Let's say you have a 50-man conscript blob. Through a variety of buffs that blob is leadership 10.

Okay, leadership 10.

In the course of one turn, that unit loses 20 models.

Leadership 10 vs 20 losses, that is a MINIMUM of 11 additional dead models at the end of the phase, ignoring the d6 entirely. That squad of 50 has been reduced from 50 models to 19 in a single turn due to this rule even with a leadership of 10.

Leadership seems to be a pretty useless stat for horde armies because it doesn't scale properly with how many losses GEQ tend to suffer fin a single phase. The ONLY way for GEQ to not ravaged by this rule is for their buffs to immunize them from having to suffer battleshock at all. Leadership buffs will mean nothing unless you're capable of buffing a unit to like leadership 14.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
People keep talking about leadership buffs like that would mean something. Why?

Let's say you have a 50-man conscript blob. Through a variety of buffs that blob is leadership 10.

Okay, leadership 10.

In the course of one turn, that unit loses 20 models.

Leadership 10 vs 20 losses, that is a MINIMUM of 11 additional dead models at the end of the phase, ignoring the d6 entirely. That squad of 50 has been reduced from 50 models to 19 in a single turn due to this rule even with a leadership of 10.

Leadership seems to be a pretty useless stat for horde armies because it doesn't scale properly with how many losses GEQ tend to suffer fin a single phase. The ONLY way for GEQ to not ravaged by this rule is for their buffs to immunize them from having to suffer battleshock at all. Leadership buffs will mean nothing unless you're capable of buffing a unit to like leadership 14.

It depends on the "buff". Maybe it doesn't cap at 10 (they said stats don't) so they could get LD15. What if a commissar has some ability to say Kill D3 (or D6) models to auto pass the morale check? What if they in some way cap the casualties that can be taken during a turn? What if stubborn (or similar) means you ignore casualties in excess of your LD taken when taking a battleshock test (so you only lose D6 models at most).?

We just don't know how it will work.

For big units I think leadership 14 will be easily obtainable. Assume they can use a model with ld 9 for the check. Then you get +5 for the blob. That's 14 without further buffs.

Not a big fan of this. This drastically promotes MSU.

Bring a big HQ, don't bring his body guard. Doesn't matter how many wounds they have a bad roll could cause the rest of the unit to disappear from moral.

A hive tyrant alone, or a hive tyrant with tyrant guard? Why risk the HT disappearing on a single bad roll?

I agree with the 'hordes are boned' crowd. Shooting is so much more devastating in 40k. And given that we're likely not going to see INFINITE unit sizes, armies like nids, orks and guard are going to suffer immensely considering 10 tac marines single tapping are going to cause (slim) losses from TotallyNotBattleshock. This TotallyNotReskinnedAoS is looking more and more like the duck. When the armies come out quaking, I fear hordes will be left by the wayside for our NuMarine and Ynnaraeieieieie overlords to casually slap aside.

 Luciferian wrote:
My squads of 3 bikers and Land Speeders with two heavy flamers are going to put a LOT of hurt on horde armies.

someone said you , those kind of units will still exist in 8th?

 Lance845 wrote:
Not a big fan of this. This drastically promotes MSU.

Bring a big HQ, don't bring his body guard. Doesn't matter how many wounds they have a bad roll could cause the rest of the unit to disappear from moral.

A hive tyrant alone, or a hive tyrant with tyrant guard? Why risk the HT disappearing on a single bad roll?

Hive tyrant with 3 guard, and LD9. Loses all 3 guard, so D6+3 - 9 = 0 at the highest. Not a problem for the tyrant.

 obsidianaura wrote:
Wonder how "and they shall know no fear will work", if it even exists in 8th

Considering we're being offered "New Background" tomorrow ATSKNF could be retconned out.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 obsidianaura wrote:
Wonder how "and they shall know no fear will work", if it even exists in 8th

Considering we're being offered "New Background" tomorrow ATSKNF could be retconned out.

An interesting point. At what point did Marines get ATSKNF as a standard?

They didn't have it in the Great Crusade, did they have it before Rowboat's fall?

Will changes that Rowboat makes to the Imperium cause them to lose it?

Early in Rogue Trader, when they were increased to T4.

(There was an article in WD.)

Regarding Morale...I still remember them the morale rules that made Fearless Horde units explode like confetti when they (predictably) took heavy casualties against more elite squads. This pleased the elite players but as a horde player I found myself removing almost double the number of models that were actually killed, which often finished off the brood...thus removing the point of being Fearless (ie not running away.)

 BlaxicanX wrote:
People keep talking about leadership buffs like that would mean something. Why?

Let's say you have a 50-man conscript blob. Through a variety of buffs that blob is leadership 10.

Okay, leadership 10.

In the course of one turn, that unit loses 20 models.

Leadership 10 vs 20 losses, that is a MINIMUM of 11 additional dead models at the end of the phase, ignoring the d6 entirely. That squad of 50 has been reduced from 50 models to 19 in a single turn due to this rule even with a leadership of 10.

Leadership seems to be a pretty useless stat for horde armies because it doesn't scale properly with how many losses GEQ tend to suffer fin a single phase. The ONLY way for GEQ to not ravaged by this rule is for their buffs to immunize them from having to suffer battleshock at all. Leadership buffs will mean nothing unless you're capable of buffing a unit to like leadership 14.

In order to lose 20 5+ save models that's 34 space marines rapid firing bolters into the same unit in the new system and then, oh whoops commisar blaps one guy and the test is passed; looking at statistics in a vacuum to try and come up with practical applications is stupid and doesn't work.

 Lance845 wrote:
Not a big fan of this. This drastically promotes MSU.

Bring a big HQ, don't bring his body guard. Doesn't matter how many wounds they have a bad roll could cause the rest of the unit to disappear from moral.

A hive tyrant alone, or a hive tyrant with tyrant guard? Why risk the HT disappearing on a single bad roll?

Maybe it does promote MSU, but Fight! phase promotes larger units.

Swings and Roundabouts, we'll have to see how it all shakes out in the end...

I love this rule.

The big problem is that not all big units want anything to do with CC, guardsmen and Guardians for example.

That said, honestly where I think this is going to end up hurting most is actually "middling" units if large units get enhanced Ld bonuses. Stuff like 10man units of Dire Avengers, Stormtroopers, Fire Warriors, etc, stuff thats not expendably cheap but also often doesnt work terribly well as MSU, that often is taken in relatively full squads and that isnt particularly hardy either. Drop 6 Ld6 Scions or Stormtroopers (assuming theyre going to have lower Ld than SM's), and you might as well just pick up and take off the rest of them for example.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Galef wrote:

KayTwo wrote:
This is bad news for IG, Orks, and Nids

Let's not forget that most weapons (like Bolters) are likely to be AP 0, conbine with Cover granting a bonus to Armour saves, this very well could mean less casualties over a given turn, thus less models lost at the end.

Having played Daemons the entire time Instability has existed, I can say from experience that losing models to LD tests isn't that bad if you have good tactics to mitigate it.
Speaking of Instability, this change to Moral makes me think that Instability may be no more since normal Moral now serves the same function.

-

If Shadow War is any reference, they may be AP-1.

It's not. Shadow War uses slightly modified 2nd Edition as a chassis. So it has ASMs, but these are fairly different than 8th's AP system.

Boltguns and Flamers in 2nd Edition (and Shadow War) are ASM -1 (as are basically all infantry small arms beyond the autogun which was one of the few weapons without an ASM in 2nd). The lascannon of 2nd Edition (and Shadow War) has a mighty ASM -6.

In 8th? Boltguns and flamers are AP - and the lascannon is AP-3. If you gaze over yonder to AoS you'll find that Rend(-3) (their equivalent of 8th's AP system) tops out at -3. 8th may go as high as -4, but that is bound to be rare.

The current prediction is that the old AP values will roughly correlate like so:
AP -/6/5 == AP -
AP 4 == AP -1
AP 3 == AP -2
AP 2 == AP -3
AP 1 == AP -4 (if such an AP exists in 8th, if not, it will probably top out at -3)

Shadow War is basically just 2nd Edition/Necromunda with some cleaned up bits. It will not make a good predictor of 8th Edition, at all.

 Vaktathi wrote:
The big problem is that not all big units want anything to do with CC, guardsmen and Guardians for example.

That said, honestly where I think this is going to end up hurting most is actually "middling" units if large units get enhanced Ld bonuses. Stuff like 10man units of Dire Avengers, Stormtroopers, Fire Warriors, etc, stuff thats not expendably cheap but also often doesnt work terribly well as MSU, that often is taken in relatively full squads and that isnt particularly hardy either. Drop 6 Ld6 Scions or Stormtroopers (assuming theyre going to have lower Ld than SM's), and you might as well just pick up and take off the rest of them for example.

But at the same time, the way cover works and the new AP system means that a 4+ save you see on a lot of non-MeQ elites is actually possibly useful now. In cover that's likely a 3+ against most small arms, and stuff that used to be AP4 or AP3 may no longer outright ignore your armour either. It is something to keep in mind alongside other potential changes that may make individual units worth taking due to special rules. A lot of non-MeQ elite units were previously crap because they didn't offer much over their cheap-as-chips brethren. Getting an armour save may actually flip the script there. But we'll definitely have to wait and see.

In the case of troops like Guardians? Hell, maybe Guardians go back to being the terrors they were in 2nd Edition when/if the shuriken catapult gets to be the only small arm with an AP value in 8th. *nervous marine laughter* *actually please don't read this GW* *ohholyemperorwhathaveIdone?*

ERJAK wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
People keep talking about leadership buffs like that would mean something. Why?

Let's say you have a 50-man conscript blob. Through a variety of buffs that blob is leadership 10.

Okay, leadership 10.

In the course of one turn, that unit loses 20 models.

Leadership 10 vs 20 losses, that is a MINIMUM of 11 additional dead models at the end of the phase, ignoring the d6 entirely. That squad of 50 has been reduced from 50 models to 19 in a single turn due to this rule even with a leadership of 10.

Leadership seems to be a pretty useless stat for horde armies because it doesn't scale properly with how many losses GEQ tend to suffer fin a single phase. The ONLY way for GEQ to not ravaged by this rule is for their buffs to immunize them from having to suffer battleshock at all. Leadership buffs will mean nothing unless you're capable of buffing a unit to like leadership 14.

In order to lose 20 5+ save models that's 34 space marines rapid firing bolters into the same unit in the new system and then, oh whoops commisar blaps one guy and the test is passed; looking at statistics in a vacuum to try and come up with practical applications is stupid and doesn't work.

A commissar killing one model so the unit ignores battle shock literally falls under the category of "immune to battleshock" I listed above.

So, you're agreeing with me.

I cannot understand all the mind losing over a handful of teased rules that are not even being presenting in their entirety. All this speculation is pointless regarding which army is being bones as we literally have absolutely zero idea what those armies are going to look like in the new edition.
Take these teased rules as the finger did they are to get your appetite going and not the be all and end all 3 course meal some people are taking it to be.

Giantwalkingchair wrote:
I cannot understand all the mind losing over a handful of teased rules that are not even being presenting in their entirety. All this speculation is pointless regarding which army is being bones as we literally have absolutely zero idea what those armies are going to look like in the new edition.
Take these teased rules as the finger did they are to get your appetite going and not the be all and end all 3 course meal some people are taking it to be.

If the appetizer is covered in flies, the rest of the courses are probably going to give your food poisoning.

Depending on how idiotic/vicious battleshock turns out to be, I might just not bother getting into 8th edition at all, or trying to convince people I'm playing with to ignore all rules relating to it entirely. I HATE battleshock as a redundant remove model mechanic.