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Seriously, though, look at the changes that we'll probably end up with:

Significantly nerfed ICs.
No more death stars.
Significantly nerfed psychic phase.
And massively buffed missile launchers and rhinos.

And to top it all off, they keep telling us that we should put lines of infantry in waves.

This feels a lot like WWI-hammer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And for the record, I think that's how they are going to kill ICs:

1. Psychic powers are probably going to be much less spammable and much less of a game-changer.

Death stars often relied on those.

2. ICs probably won't be able to join units. That was the bread and butter of death stars.

3. We now have an AP system where more weapons will be able to downgrade your 2+ armor save into something much weaker.

And multiple-damage weapons.

That's pretty much the death of death stars.

Would you guys consider an Interrogator Chaplain with a Ravenwing Command Squad and Darkshroud a deathstar?

 Luciferian wrote:
Would you guys consider an Interrogator Chaplain with a Ravenwing Command Squad and Darkshroud a deathstar?

I have run that very combo myself and it is good. I usually throw a Librarian in there for some psychic shenanigans myself. I'm not sure it's a true deathstar as its power is relatively limited compared to things like Superfriends, but it is extremely durable with that sweet 2+ rerollable Jink save.

 ZergSmasher wrote:

 Luciferian wrote:
Would you guys consider an Interrogator Chaplain with a Ravenwing Command Squad and Darkshroud a deathstar?

I have run that very combo myself and it is good. I usually throw a Librarian in there for some psychic shenanigans myself. I'm not sure it's a true deathstar as its power is relatively limited compared to things like Superfriends, but it is extremely durable with that sweet 2+ rerollable Jink save.

Let's hope it stays that way

 Traditio wrote:
Seriously, though, look at the changes that we'll probably end up with:

Significantly nerfed ICs.
No more death stars.
Significantly nerfed psychic phase.
And massively buffed missile launchers and rhinos.

And to top it all off, they keep telling us that we should put lines of infantry in waves.

This feels a lot like WWI-hammer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And for the record, I think that's how they are going to kill ICs:

1. Psychic powers are probably going to be much less spammable and much less of a game-changer.

Death stars often relied on those.

2. ICs probably won't be able to join units. That was the bread and butter of death stars.

3. We now have an AP system where more weapons will be able to downgrade your 2+ armor save into something much weaker.

And multiple-damage weapons.

That's pretty much the death of death stars.

Not so sure with the psychic powers... you have to make 10 for Smite to be d6 mortal wounds - that means a level 3 psyker will be causing d6 completely unsavable wounds over 58% of the time, a level 2 42% of the time (the rest of the time they will almost certainly be causing d3). That's more powerful and reliable than current psychic shriek and is the power everyone knows. Imagine what the unique faction powers are like if that's your bog standard bargin basement power.

Poly Ranger wrote:Not so sure with the psychic powers... you have to make 10 for Smite to be d6 mortal wounds - that means a level 3 psyker will be causing d6 completely unsavable wounds over 58% of the time, a level 2 42% of the time (the rest of the time they will almost certainly be causing d3). That's more powerful and reliable than current psychic shriek and is the power everyone knows. Imagine what the unique faction powers are like if that's your bog standard bargin basement power.

There are two things that we don't know yet:

1. Will GW import the Rule of One from AoS into 40k 8th edition?

2. If they don't, how many times will each psyker be able to use each power?

At any rate, Smite is a copy/paste straight from AoS, and I don't know of any AoS players complaining about how OP psykers are. I asked in another thread. I received literally zero complaints about OP spells.

And I think that people are overestimating this Smite ability.

Yes, it's easy to cast. Yes, it's a minimum of d3 wounds. No, you can't make saves against those wounds.

But it has a maximum range of 18 inches...

...and if psyker ICs can't join other units?

That spells a psyker that's dead on arrival.

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 Luciferian wrote:
Would you guys consider an Interrogator Chaplain with a Ravenwing Command Squad and Darkshroud a deathstar?

Death Star or not, it's probably going the way of the dodo...

...and I bid it good riddance!

Poly Ranger wrote:


Not so sure with the psychic powers... you have to make 10 for Smite to be d6 mortal wounds - that means a level 3 psyker will be causing d6 completely unsavable wounds over 58% of the time, a level 2 42% of the time (the rest of the time they will almost certainly be causing d3). That's more powerful and reliable than current psychic shriek and is the power everyone knows. Imagine what the unique faction powers are like if that's your bog standard bargin basement power.

Where are you getting 52% from?
2d6 Psychic test there is no way 10+ is 52%

And there's no way they'll let a single psyker cast the same power more than once. (With possible exceptions in Special characters)

Jbz` wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:


Not so sure with the psychic powers... you have to make 10 for Smite to be d6 mortal wounds - that means a level 3 psyker will be causing d6 completely unsavable wounds over 58% of the time, a level 2 42% of the time (the rest of the time they will almost certainly be causing d3). That's more powerful and reliable than current psychic shriek and is the power everyone knows. Imagine what the unique faction powers are like if that's your bog standard bargin basement power.

Where are you getting 52% from?
2d6 Psychic test there is no way 10+ is 52%

I can only assume that the assumption is that an ML3 level psyker can use Smite 3 times in a row.

I find this assumption dubious at best.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jbz` wrote:(With possible exceptions in Special characters)

Ahriman might be one of those exceptions.

well from what I know about AoS, psychic is still a huge deal. Like Thanquol putting out 2D3 mortal wounds most psychic phases, and there are some really good casters (trees on a vortex thingy) but its not nearly as strong as 40k. Same with heroes, they pack a punch, but are better support.

 Traditio wrote:


Either way, 8th edition is looking a lot like Traditio-hammer.

What do you guys think?

I am sure that there will be elements in the rule set that you are going to dislike. Don;t count on it being your wish list ; )

 oldzoggy wrote:

 Traditio wrote:


Either way, 8th edition is looking a lot like Traditio-hammer.

What do you guys think?

I am sure that there will be elements in the rule set that you are going to dislike. Don;t count on it being your wish list ; )

Maybe.

But so far, it's looking a lot like my wish list.

Assuming no other changes, the current changes directly nerf wraithknights and scatterbikes.

Scatter bikes are now much less effective against vehicles, and wraithknights are actually afraid of lascannons and missile launchers.

 Traditio wrote:


Death Star or not, it's probably going the way of the dodo...

...and I bid it good riddance!

Well to be fair it's pretty much the obvious choice in 7th. Assuming there are still jink saves and assuming the Darkshroud still buffs them it probably won't change much for me, I'll still be taking that and a bunch of Black Knights. Because... well, that's just what you do with a Ravenwing army.

 Luciferian wrote:

 Traditio wrote:


Death Star or not, it's probably going the way of the dodo...

...and I bid it good riddance!

Well to be fair it's pretty much the obvious choice in 7th. Assuming there are still jink saves and assuming the Darkshroud still buffs them it probably won't change much for me, I'll still be taking that and a bunch of Black Knights. Because... well, that's just what you do with a Ravenwing army.

If I had to guess:

Jink is going to a modifier to hit, and likely will cap at either -1 or -2 to BS.

Either that, or it will simply count as cover, which can, of course, be modified by AP.

So, in that case, enjoy your 2+ save. Of course, my krak missile will adjust that to a 4+ save...

 Traditio wrote:


If I had to guess:

Jink is going to a modifier to hit, and likely will cap at either -1 or -2 to BS.

Either that, or it will simply count as cover, which can, of course, be modified by AP.

So, in that case, enjoy your 2+ save. Of course, my krak missile will adjust that to a 4+ save...

Hey, it's still better than a 5+ or 6+ save. Extra survivability is extra survivability, and I'm assuming it will kind of even out in the end.

 Luciferian wrote:
Would you guys consider an Interrogator Chaplain with a Ravenwing Command Squad and Darkshroud a deathstar?

Depends what army I'm playing. Most of the time no, shooty Nids, yes.

Probably just a couple of extra hoops to jump through in the allies department.

 Luciferian wrote:


Let's hope it stays that way

Cover saves aren't a thing anymore, so it's guaranteed to change. Maybe jinking will give a -1 to hit, but 7th ed 2+ rerollable jink needs to die in the same fire smashfucker is roasting in.

Jbz` wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:


Not so sure with the psychic powers... you have to make 10 for Smite to be d6 mortal wounds - that means a level 3 psyker will be causing d6 completely unsavable wounds over 58% of the time, a level 2 42% of the time (the rest of the time they will almost certainly be causing d3). That's more powerful and reliable than current psychic shriek and is the power everyone knows. Imagine what the unique faction powers are like if that's your bog standard bargin basement power.

Where are you getting 52% from?
2d6 Psychic test there is no way 10+ is 52%

And there's no way they'll let a single psyker cast the same power more than once. (With possible exceptions in Special characters)

A ML3 psyker adds 3 to their dice roll in the new rules apparently. Therefore you make 10 with a roll of 7. The chance of getting 7 or more on 2 dice is 58%.

Edit: 7 or less... still same %.

 Grimgold wrote:

 Luciferian wrote:


Let's hope it stays that way

Cover saves aren't a thing anymore, so it's guaranteed to change. Maybe jinking will give a -1 to hit, but 7th ed 2+ rerollable jink needs to die in the same fire smashfucker is roasting in.

Agreed.

Can we also add to that decurion levels of Necron durability?

I don't think the AoS rule of not joining squads can work the same way in 40k. For the simple reason alone of firepower. In AoS unless you play a certain army you don't have access to a lot of ranged attacks for hero sniping. And getting anything longer range than 36" is REALLY REALLY RARE. Like, one piece of artillery in your list, maybe 2, and nothing else.

40k Has tons and tons of guns. 48 inches up to infinite range. If special characters can't join squads then there won't be a point in even taking them as they will just get wiped off the board from across the map with no counterplay.

 Don Savik wrote:
I don't think the AoS rule of not joining squads can work the same way in 40k. For the simple reason alone of firepower. In AoS unless you play a certain army you don't have access to a lot of ranged attacks for hero sniping. And getting anything longer range than 36" is REALLY REALLY RARE. Like, one piece of artillery in your list, maybe 2, and nothing else.

40k Has tons and tons of guns. 48 inches up to infinite range. If special characters can't join squads then there won't be a point in even taking them as they will just get wiped off the board from across the map with no counterplay.

That sounds like a good idea. Maybe it would encourage people actually to bring troops.

 Traditio wrote:

 Don Savik wrote:
I don't think the AoS rule of not joining squads can work the same way in 40k. For the simple reason alone of firepower. In AoS unless you play a certain army you don't have access to a lot of ranged attacks for hero sniping. And getting anything longer range than 36" is REALLY REALLY RARE. Like, one piece of artillery in your list, maybe 2, and nothing else.

40k Has tons and tons of guns. 48 inches up to infinite range. If special characters can't join squads then there won't be a point in even taking them as they will just get wiped off the board from across the map with no counterplay.

That sounds like a good idea. Maybe it would encourage people actually to bring troops.

Not really.
A good number of the same weapons that would happily blow away a powerful Special Character will also cut holes in a squad of troops, Lascanon type weapons ase still kind of useless in comparison to high Rate of Fire weaponry for the same reason that Scatter Lasers were better in 7th.

Traditio wrote:

Agreed.

Can we also add to that decurion levels of Necron durability?

Sure, layers of saves (and rerolls) work multiplicatively, and that is too prone to abuse. So getting rid of FnP and RP as they existed in 7th ed is just good design, there are plenty of other ways to make effects with those flavors that don't involve requiring d-weapons and stomp to compensate for silly design.

Don Savik wrote:I don't think the AoS rule of not joining squads can work the same way in 40k. For the simple reason alone of firepower. In AoS unless you play a certain army you don't have access to a lot of ranged attacks for hero sniping. And getting anything longer range than 36" is REALLY REALLY RARE. Like, one piece of artillery in your list, maybe 2, and nothing else.

40k Has tons and tons of guns. 48 inches up to infinite range. If special characters can't join squads then there won't be a point in even taking them as they will just get wiped off the board from across the map with no counterplay.

No indication that's how ICs will work outside of the similarities between AoS and 8th ed. Still, I think people are a little too worked up about sniping ICs, If we kept the chaplain stat line as is in 7th ed but gave him 5 wounds, It would literally not be worth a devastator teams time is there is a vehicle or a monster, or a dangerous unit to shoot at. Just look at a dreadnought compared to our hypothetical chaplain. Which would you rather shoot at, the guy with an str 10 (maybe more) -3 rend 4 attacks doing a d3 wounds per hit, who is also rocking a heavy flamer and an assault cannon, or the dude with a plasma pistol and a powermaul. I'm sure there will be some sniping, but cover gives a +1 to armor save, so you put them behind other troops, and our hypothetical chaplain has a 2+/4++, with five wounds, so 30 effective against rend 0, or 10 if missle launchers have a -2 rend for krak.

Grimgold wrote:10 if missle launchers have a -2 rend for krak.

I think that we can safely assume that krak will deal 1d6 damage. In that case, it will only take an average of 2 krak missiles to take out a chaplain, assuming 5 wounds. So:

1/2 (number of missiles needed) X 2/3 (BS) X 5/6 (to wound) x 1/2 (4+ save) = 10/72

About 7 shots.

 Traditio wrote:

Grimgold wrote:10 if missle launchers have a -2 rend for krak.

I think that we can safely assume that krak will deal 1d6 damage. In that case, it will only take an average of 2 krak missiles to take out a chaplain, assuming 5 wounds. So:

1/2 (number of missiles needed) X 2/3 (BS) X 5/6 (to wound) x 1/2 (4+ save) = 10/72

About 7 shots.

Probably D3 Because Lascannons are doing D6. I might be wrong though, its just a guess

Which is about the same it would take to kill the dread;

2/3 (hit) * 2/3 (wound) * 2/3 (5+ save) = 8/27 so 1/3(ish) shots go thru at 3.5 damage per. So it takes about 8 shots and the dread is going to be way more effective.

*Edit* Chaplain for comparison, because I think one of ours math is slightly off.

2/3 (hit) * 5/6 (wound) * 1/2 (4++/4+ save) = 11/36 at 3.5 damage per hit (the median for a d6), so about five shots actually if they do a d6 damage. The dread is tougher to kill, but a 4 missile launcher dev squad will still take about 2 rounds to kill each of them, so the opportunity cost is similar when combat effectiveness is not similar at all.

gummyofallbears wrote:Probably D3 Because Lascannons are doing D6. I might be wrong though, its just a guess

I think that they both deal D6 in shadow wars.

They might make ICs untargetable within 6" of friendly units without sharing buffs, like in some older edition (was that 3d?).

I am betting that IC can only join units of the same keyword so no more Super friends that is seen as bad by GW

 Grimgold wrote:
Which is about the same it would take to kill the dread;

2/3 (hit) * 2/3 (wound) * 2/3 (5+ save) = 8/27 so 1/3(ish) shots go thru at 3.5 damage per. So it takes about 8 shots and the dread is going to be way more effective.

*Edit* Chaplain for comparison, because I think one of ours math is slightly off.

2/3 (hit) * 5/6 (wound) * 1/2 (4++/4+ save) = 11/36 at 3.5 damage per hit (the median for a d6), so about five shots actually if they do a d6 damage. The dread is tougher to kill, but a 4 missile launcher dev squad will still take about 2 rounds to kill each of them, so the opportunity cost is similar when combat effectiveness is not similar at all.

It really depends on distance and other possible targets. It also depends upon whether and how the chaplain is buffing other units.

If a dreadnought and the chaplain are on the other side of the table, then I might well decide that the chaplain is a greater target priority.

Of course, if the dreadnought were close enough to be a threat...different story.