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Grav is dumb and invalidates all the other space marine weapons options in 7th. It was so powerful we started seeing whole lists affected by its spam in the meta. It was the defining gun to finally put a bullet in any sort of vehicle viability.

Anything released for SM was compared to grav spam.

Got to be changed or toned down for sure. Especially if they don't want the other options feeling useless compared to it.

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:
Basically the same. To wound equal to the armour save of the target, Damage 1, AP-3. Shooting profile as it is now. No slowing/initiative changing effects.

They're reasonable against heavy infantry (but less so against anything that has multiple wounds) they can whittle down heavy armour (if you want to devote multiple squads to one target) and lose effectiveness against lighter targets.

With the wound/save mechanic on vehicles, as well as massive numbers of wounds, they're not as OP as they were before.

No, just no.

AP-3 would be a terrible idea.

 bullyboy wrote:

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:
Basically the same. To wound equal to the armour save of the target, Damage 1, AP-3. Shooting profile as it is now. No slowing/initiative changing effects.

They're reasonable against heavy infantry (but less so against anything that has multiple wounds) they can whittle down heavy armour (if you want to devote multiple squads to one target) and lose effectiveness against lighter targets.

With the wound/save mechanic on vehicles, as well as massive numbers of wounds, they're not as OP as they were before.

No, just no.

AP-3 would be a terrible idea.

3 May be a bit much. I think 2 is better.

The design idea behind Grav was that it was supposed to hurt big things more easily than little things. Unfortunately, this because just "hurts everything more than anything" with only Harlequins and Orks not being hugely affected by it. I think this role can still be served, but with a different effect.

Graviton Weapon: After a shot from this weapon hits, it scores a number of hits equal to the number of remaining wounds of the model hit by it.

Then each Grav weapon has a different strength. So a Grav Pistol is the weakest, with S3, a Grav Gun with S5, and a Grav Cannon with S7. In this way, big things at full health are most affected, but even then the really big things are only wounded on a 5+ or 6+. Grav also loses a lot of effectiveness later into the fight, and is bad against Infantry or targets with only 1 wound.

 Yarium wrote:
The design idea behind Grav was that it was supposed to hurt big things more easily than little things. Unfortunately, this because just "hurts everything more than anything" with only Harlequins and Orks not being hugely affected by it. I think this role can still be served, but with a different effect.

Graviton Weapon: After a shot from this weapon hits, it scores a number of hits equal to the number of remaining wounds of the model hit by it.

Then each Grav weapon has a different strength. So a Grav Pistol is the weakest, with S3, a Grav Gun with S5, and a Grav Cannon with S7. In this way, big things at full health are most affected, but even then the really big things are only wounded on a 5+ or 6+. Grav also loses a lot of effectiveness later into the fight, and is bad against Infantry or targets with only 1 wound.

So, you would roll 1 dice... and if that 1 dice was a hit...

You would suddenly roll to wound like 20 times? (Assuming the large creature had 20 HP)

I'm just going to give my personal opinion of... no

I like the idea of light damage but severe movement effects. Indirect effects are cool!

-Plasma gun st7 ap-3 damage d3 rapid fire 1/2 24"
-Grav gun st5 ap-2 damage 1 assault 3 18" (any wound suffered by a unit reduces movement by 1, including charges, this is not stackable)
-Plasma Cannon st7 ap-3 damage d3 heavy d3 36"
-Grav cannon st5 ap-2 damage 1 heavy 6 30" same rule as above
-Amp allows re rolls to wound of 1 and makes movement -2".

Totally different weapons. Grav becomes good at dealing with infantry, plasma good at dealing with MCs/light tanks/multiwound heavy infantry (only against T4, T8 and T9 will they wound on the same). A Grav cannon becomes basically 2 shorter ranged HBs with 1 better ap and reduces movement of target. Priced accordingly.

Grav wounds should stack for the movement nerf at 1 per 2 or 1 per 3 rate.

Why does grav have to have high rate of fire?

I think Grav still has a place in the game. I see plasma as being a multi-wound weapon (thus still being able to deal with 2W Terminators). Grav, on the other hand should only do one wound per shot. With the reduced range compared to plasma, they sort of even out. Gets hot on plasma absolutely needs to go though. I see them as such. Gravguns probably shouldn't​have the rate of fire they do now.

Plasma Gun: 24" Rapid Fire 1 Str 7 AP -3, 1d3W

Gravgun: 18" Rapid Fire 1 Str* AP -3, 1W
-Roll to wound against Armor Save value.

So with Grav, you might be wounding easier, but you only do one would, and it is at shorter range.

Plasma Cannon: 36" Heavy 1d6 Str 7 AP-3, 1d6W
Grav Cannon: 24" Rapid Fire 2 Str* AP -3, 1W
-Roll to wound against Armor Save value.

Here the Plasma Cannon has the potential to do more shots and does more wounds with each shot. The Grav Cannon has a lot of shots, and wounds easier, but still only ever does one wound.

We've already seen that grav pistol is 7 points. So grav can't be that powerful anymore

The Deer Hunter wrote:
We've already seen that grav pistol is 7 points. So grav can't be that powerful anymore

You're making the assumption that GW has priced the grav pistol appropriately.

That's a dubious assumption.

But even if true, I don't think that the conclusion follows.

Yes, the grav pistol isn't as powerful as other options.

But the grav pistol wasn't as powerful as the grav gun or the grav cannon to start with.

The Deer Hunter wrote:
We've already seen that grav pistol is 7 points. So grav can't be that powerful anymore

Grav Pistols were never overpowered to begin with. They just suffered from being compared to the plasma pistol, which they were better than despite having the same cost, but that had more to do with plasma pistols being overpriced trash.

 CadianGateTroll wrote:
Why does grav have to have high rate of fire?

I think of it as the waves being sent from the gun. Tbf the thing that has always confused me is why does it roll to wound against armour saves? If the force gravity started increasing to an extent where it could hurt you, you would be better off in a well structured suit of power or terminator armour. Yes they would be heavier but the structure would prevent much of the weight pushing down, much like arches in architecture. Without the suit of armour you would have nothing preventing the force from crushing you into the ground. And on a side note - is artificier armour really as heavy as terminator armour? Or a marine in power armour as heavy as a carnifex? Grav rules as they are seem to assume so.

If a combi melta (buffed weapon) goes to 27 from 10, I guess that a weapon that goes to 7 from 15 has been nerfed.

I dont see why the Gravcannin would need to change much, the Lascannon or Multimelta will out damage it on single models, where as the Gravcannon would be better against multiple models.

The Plasma Cannon will be a decent all rounder, assuming its d6 hits. S7 will let hurt anything better, where as the Grav will do worse against lower armour saves.

I could see them nerfing them to use the lower half of the Salvo numbers, so the Gravgun would only be two shots and the Cannon 3, but it would be the high rof anti hesvy infantry weapon, while the heavy bolter would be for Light Infantry.

We will have to wait and see.