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 Hollow wrote:

 Sensual_T_Rex wrote:
I also understand the want for the latest and greatest and how people who've invested a lot of money and time in there armies can feel a bit jaded about owning "outdated" miniatures.

I wonder how these people react when companies release new and upgraded versions of other products they may own. Do they cry when Ford releases a new version of the Mondeo? Do they go running into the dealership screaming "You just invalidated my Mondeo! I literally can't drive it, or look at it again because you have just released a new version" What do they do about mobile phones? Do they scream bloody murder every time a new version of the Iphone comes around? (yearly) Most of the people I see making these kind of complaints, always come across as the worst kind of demanding, whiny, childish little brats. GW owes you nothing.

Methinks you're not actually looking at the substance of the complaints and are just jumping to conclusions.

These are expensive hobbies, involving not only money but time and effort as well. The entire thing is designed to foster an emotional attachment and investment as part of the hook, and having a coherent looking army is a big deal in this hobby, and with an understanding that.

That said, most people aren't upset about just there being new, bigger marines. It's the way GW is going about doing it, in traditional post 4E-GW style, with painfully stupid retcons and hamfisting stuff into places it really doesn't quite fit or serve a distinct purpose (both rules-wise and in the fluff). If they'd just announced they were reimagining marines and reupdating the line with a new vision for model line and game stats, the way they did Dark Eldar a few years ago, few people would have an issue, especially as the old stuff could still serve just as well without looking too goofy because of any scale differences. Introducing "marines+1" however, as a literal background universe thing, and particularly in the way it's been described thus far, inherently undercuts the fundamental premise/concept of many existing armies (something a new model car does not) while also adding a new unit to the table that doesn't really have a distinct role or purpose aside from just being slightly better Tac marines for their own sake, further increasing game complexity at a time when they're actively trying to tone that down.


TL;DR they took something that should have just been a simple "cool new vision for marines" and unnecessarily added a whole bunch of fluff and rules junk that really bites into the inherent value proposition from GW that many people bought into right when they're also trying to clamp down on that kind of thing elsewhere.

 Rippy wrote:
If you like the fluff for old marines, I don't understand why you don't like the fluff for the new marines.

The are pretty much the same thing, which came to fruition after a 10,000 year project.

From the background perspective, the Space Marines were supposed to be the pinnacle of the Emperor's work, having a Primarch, a lesser being, succeed in excess of the Emperor ten thousand years later comes off as both narratively lazy and...unsubtle in the extreme.

There's also some weirdness for many people with the Primarch's back, that was always kind of one of those "legendary" background elements that was there to help define the stage of things or act as rumored prophecy but not actually carry out a new act. Though that's probably worth it's own thread altogether.

I think it is pretty cool to be honest. It really screams A New Hope () for the Imperium in the most dire situation it has seen in 10,000 years,

Precisely because that flies against an inherent part of what makes the 40k universe what it is, spelled out right at the beginning of every rulebook since 1987

Warhammer 40,000 wrote:To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be relearned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods.

That's the stage we're playing on. Science and technology do not offer hope, enlightened understanding and diplomacy have no place, only war.

 Luciferian wrote:
And if you don't think there's at least a bit of merit to that, ask a Bretonnian or Tomb Kings player how they feel about the support their armies are getting.

I own armies for both those factions. Love my Bretonnians especially. I don't recall ever crying about what happened with Fantasy. Loved that setting, Really enjoying what AoS has given us so far. Nothing stays the same, I don't cry about change, I embrace it.

That and resources that went into making this could have been used towards some of the other factions that are desperately needing new models. Specifically the Eldar, Chaos, Orks, and Imperial Guard.

 Hollow wrote:

I wonder how these people react when companies release new and upgraded versions of other products they may own. Do they cry when Ford releases a new version of the Mondeo? Do they go running into the dealership screaming "You just invalidated my Mondeo! I literally can't drive it, or look at it again because you have just released a new version" What do they do about mobile phones? Do they scream bloody murder every time a new version of the Iphone comes around? (yearly) Most of the people I see making these kind of complaints, always come across as the worst kind of demanding, whiny, childish little brats. GW owes you nothing.

Well I get what your saying and I do agree to an extent. But the vehicle comparison is a bit wrong in the fact that anyone who buys a truck knows full well that a new version of it will be released in a year. It's like when I got a gaming pc a few years back. I spent around 3000USD on it knowing full well that in 6 months it'd be worth half that price and even better PCs would be available.
As for my understanding of people being upset well I think it's because I'm still new to this game and I look at things from a newbie perspective. I've know about 40k since the 80s but I've never took the plunge until last year. Now I'm lucky because my army has a retro vibe to it so using older models goes with the theme. I've spent about 1600USD on it and I've paid to have it professionally painted. So yeah if I was new to the game and decided to go SM and invested a few thousand into them only to have the new hotness come out not even a year into my army then yeah I'd be a bit miffed.
However I do agree that most people are whining and complaining because the numarines look cooler then the old marines.

 Hollow wrote:

I own armies for both those factions. Love my Bretonnians especially. I don't recall ever crying about what happened with Fantasy. Loved that setting, Really enjoying what AoS has given us so far. Nothing stays the same, I don't cry about change, I embrace it.

And I'm not crying about this either, but I could certainly understand someone being miffed if suddenly all further production and support was entirely cut off for their favorite army. It's not exactly just a newer, better thing coming out like you said.

thing is with numarines they could easiuly do best of both worlds, let's face it space Marines don't need new infantry kits, (a plastic Thunderfire canon would be nice) so if all the new infantry are Primiarus Marines, ehb who cares? and new VEHICLES are something that could be given to new and old Marines. there's no reason to make the "Primarius pattern land raider" restricted to Primiarus Marines

That or it could be interesting with all current marines going "Traitor" against Guilliman's Crusade, so the two forces would be distinct. As it stands even the fluff sounds like the Primaris Marines will slowly replace the current astartes.

 Luciferian wrote:
And I'm not crying about this either, but I could certainly understand someone being miffed if suddenly all further production and support was entirely cut off for their favorite army..

All minis currently for sale by GW will be supported in the new edition. Which is actually an improvement on what has gone before, with large periods of waiting for updates. Yet people complain about invalidation. Everything is getting new rules in a matter of weeks. Yet people complain. I'm not jumping to conclusions, I've just reached a few regarding those who do seem to jump to them.

I really am struggling with people who are claiming that the new (very little amount we know so far) fluff is terrible. How is it? It all makes sense logically, they have finished of 7th edition with a big campaign, new models, and set up 8th in such a way that hasn't deviated from the lore laid out so far. Genetic superhumans are made and then replaced by new and better superhumans, who are then replaced by new and better superhumans. Everything is still grim dark, everything is still in keeping. I'd love to see some of these complainers try and build a lore over 30 years as good as what GW has managed.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
That or it could be interesting with all current marines going "Traitor" against Guilliman's Crusade, so the two forces would be distinct. As it stands even the fluff sounds like the Primaris Marines will slowly replace the current astartes.

and MK 8 armor was supposed to slowly replace MK 7 armor.

 Hollow wrote:

 Luciferian wrote:
And I'm not crying about this either, but I could certainly understand someone being miffed if suddenly all further production and support was entirely cut off for their favorite army..

All minis currently for sale by GW will be supported in the new edition. Which is actually an improvement on what has gone before, with large periods of waiting for updates. Yet people complain about invalidation. Everything is getting new rules in a matter of weeks. Yet people complain. I'm not jumping to conclusions, I've just reached a few regarding those who do seem to jump to them.

I really am struggling with people who are claiming that the new (very little amount we know so far) fluff is terrible. How is it? It all makes sense logically, they have finished of 7th edition with a big campaign, new models, and set up 8th in such a way that hasn't deviated from the lore laid out so far. Genetic superhumans are made and then replaced by new and better superhumans, who are then replaced by new and better superhumans. Everything is still grim dark, everything is still in keeping.

See my post in response to Rippy on these items if you're actually curious why people have issues with it.

I'd love to see some of these complainers try and build a lore over 30 years as good as what GW has managed.

Most of the people that really built that good stuff both A: took a lot of it very liberally and directly from other things such as Judge Dredd, Starship Troopers, Dune, etc, and B: haven't worked for GW in many years. Their background stuff over the last decade or so really has had a marked decline in quality, reading the 3.5E CSM codex or RT's "WAAAAGH The Orks!" (published well before I ever started) is fantastically more powerful stuff in general than anything you'll find published recently.

 Blacksails wrote:
Models are great, fluff is lacking, to put it lightly.

Yeah I love the models, but I don't like the imperium getting all this sunshine and rainbows hope and the apparent lack of internal conflict about this. I hope there is more to the fluff than GW is telling us cause it seems really basic and cartoonish.

Thing is the stuff is already at the printers, you can bet money on it. And if it sucks...then it's gonna suck and nothings gonna change that between now and then.

 Hollow wrote:

All minis currently for sale by GW will be supported in the new edition. Which is actually an improvement on what has gone before, with large periods of waiting for updates. Yet people complain about invalidation. Everything is getting new rules in a matter of weeks. Yet people complain. I'm not jumping to conclusions, I've just reached a few regarding those who do seem to jump to them.

I really am struggling with people who are claiming that the new (very little amount we know so far) fluff is terrible. How is it? It all makes sense logically, they have finished of 7th edition with a big campaign, new models, and set up 8th in such a way that hasn't deviated from the lore laid out so far. Genetic superhumans are made and then replaced by new and better superhumans, who are then replaced by new and better superhumans. Everything is still grim dark, everything is still in keeping. I'd love to see some of these complainers try and build a lore over 30 years as good as what GW has managed.

OK man, I get it. You take everything that comes to you with stoic optimism, which gives you a pride and dignity of bearing that mere mortals will never know. You know the black and white truth; that people either unquestioningly accept and enjoy things, without criticism, as you do, or they are whiny complainers. Please feel free to give yourself another pat on the back on my behalf.

 Robin5t wrote:
Don't like any of it. The setting didn't need more marines with added marine, it needed more diversity and focus on stuff that wasn't marines. Even though the realist in me knows that was never going to happen...

i tend to agree with this sentiment. With Cadia destroyed, an aging model line for the Imperial Guard, GW decides to produce more Space Marines of which many thinks we already have more than enough for a little while (at the exception of Chaos, these guys were completly ignored in their own big moment).

Are they nice, yeah they are not so bad, but it could and should have waited a while before producing it.

 Hollow wrote:

I really am struggling with people who are claiming that the new (very little amount we know so far) fluff is terrible. How is it? It all makes sense logically, they have finished of 7th edition with a big campaign, new models, and set up 8th in such a way that hasn't deviated from the lore laid out so far. Genetic superhumans are made and then replaced by new and better superhumans, who are then replaced by new and better superhumans. Everything is still grim dark, everything is still in keeping. I'd love to see some of these complainers try and build a lore over 30 years as good as what GW has managed.

My biggest issue with the Fluff is why did Gawl sit on these marines and better equipment for so long..

He had no idea that Guilliman was gonna come back, but had a arsenal just sitting there in mars that could of been of use to the Imperium

Even if he kept the Primus Marines under wraps.. handing out the superior bolters out to the Chapters would of been a boon to the Imperium.

If he decided to awaken the Primus he could of potentially saved so much for the Imperium

@Vaktathi
Who is to say the Emperor couldn't have further genetically enhanced his gene-forged warrior's geneseed (to alter their genecode), the Astartes for the time were perfect, and removed more than enough from humanity as it was.
If he could make custodes and Primarchs, I imagine he made marines to a certain standard.

Plus this new creation allows for there to be more space marines in the galaxy, as their needs to be to actually support the amount of work they currently do in the fluff.

 Vaktathi wrote:
See my post in response to Rippy on these items if you're actually curious why people have issues with it.

I would not waste any more time arguing with him. Considering he's been saying things specifically to the contrary to people's expectations (like being a bret and tk player who not only had no problem with their squatting, but also took GW's promise at face value while praising their lore), you can't do much more than shout at a wall with him.

Funny enough, it probably doesn't take as much effort to build a lore as good as GW, since the Chapterhouse lawsuit (which is the instigator for all of this) kinda proved that most of GW's lore was written by other people and just had the serial numbers filed off (not that it was much of a secret beforehand). So, maybe spend 10 hours with a college student who's really good at plagarizing? Kinda explains why once GW tried going in their own direction, the lore started becoming more nonsensical.

EDIT: As for everyone else worrying, just note that you guys will get far more warning than the Bret and TK players got if you need to finish off some collections. Even if they are going, Marines likely will remain for at least a few years. I say finish off your current battle companies and dictate an end to where they will be, and move on to something else (either the Primaris Marines, Chaos or a Xeno race). By the sounds of it, the production of the rest of the line is already put into action, so this is happening one way or another.

Do you mean arguing with me, MechaEmperor?

 Rippy wrote:
Do you mean arguing with me, MechaEmperor?

No, he means our brave and stoic exemplar, Hollow.

They are 100% boring to me. It would take some really exceptional fiction to make at all interested in them. Models are nice, but I'll happily pass. They look weird and superfluous next to old marines.

 Luciferian wrote:

OK man, I get it. You take everything that comes to you with stoic optimism, which gives you a pride and dignity of bearing that mere mortals will never know. You know the black and white truth; that people either unquestioningly accept and enjoy things, without criticism, as you do, or they are whiny complainers..

Not at all. I'm not blind to the mistakes that GW has made in the past and I'm all for valid criticism. I just find certain whiney cynical presence on various threads to be tiring. Especially when it come to things we only have snippets of information about.

Luciferian wrote:

 Hollow wrote:


I wonder how these people react when companies release new and upgraded versions of other products they may own. Do they cry when Ford releases a new version of the Mondeo? Do they go running into the dealership screaming "You just invalidated my Mondeo! I literally can't drive it, or look at it again because you have just released a new version" What do they do about mobile phones? Do they scream bloody murder every time a new version of the Iphone comes around? (yearly) Most of the people I see making these kind of complaints, always come across as the worst kind of demanding, whiny, childish little brats. GW owes you nothing.

As for the M X marines. I really like the models and the small amount of fluff we have heard about them. Could open up a range of new and interesting avenues for them to explore.

Down, boy. People aren't concerned that there's a new and improved version of what they already own, they're concerned that their armies might be literally invalidated or unsupported in the future. And if you don't think there's at least a bit of merit to that, ask a Brettonian or Tomb Kings player how they feel about the support their armies are getting.

Except that the Space Marine players have something being set up to replace them. And barring rules abusers and the occasional stubborn jerk, no one will have a problem with those that use the old Space Marine models. (I can say this with certainty since I have 20 or so 1st Ed Terminators that I've used before without issue.

EDIT: Tension levels dropping. Switching to condition level yellow.

I dont like the models for 2 reasons.
1) the helmet, there is something about it that just strikes me as "off"
2) I dont appreciate the creep in size of models, at all. the board is still just 6x4 so dont want a bunch of bigger models and bigger bases and these seem to herald just that

I hate the fluff. I find it poorly conceived and just a shill to eventually phase out older models and replace them with new.

I wonder how these would look with the Corvus "Beakie" helmets. The FAQs did say that the head and shoulderpads were one of the few things that are still cross-compatible without modifications.

 Rippy wrote:
@Vaktathi
Who is to say the Emperor couldn't have further genetically enhanced his gene-forged warrior's geneseed (to alter their genecode), the Astartes for the time were perfect, and removed more than enough from humanity as it was.
If he could make custodes and Primarchs, I imagine he made marines to a certain standard.

Sure, but by the standing background of the 40k universe of the last 30 years or so, they were about where he wanted them to be and experimentation or "improvement" by the Primarch's just led to tragedy and the creation of monsters and deviants or self mutilation and the like. That was part of their whole fluff thing, messing with that which was created by "god" (the Emperor) and paying for it, in multiple different instances (Raven Guard, World Eaters, Emperor's Children, Thousand Sons, Iron Hands to some extent, etc), and the whole fundamental universe premise about how technology and progress are not enough to overcome the eternal cycle of violence.

Plus this new creation allows for there to be more space marines in the galaxy, as their needs to be to actually support the amount of work they currently do in the fluff.

Won't get any argument from me on this point

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
I wonder how these would look with the Corvus "Beakie" helmets. The FAQs did say that the head and shoulderpads were one of the few things that are still cross-compatible without modifications.

oh...beakie helmets might look pretty ace actually...

I like the models, still unsure about the fluff. Not entirely keen on the new helmet, i definitely prefer the old styles, but overall i like them. Power armour should look 'techy' imo, even if most of the knowledge regarding it's creation and maintenance is lost. Its just that the helmets look a bit too organic imo, very smooth and curved and i'm not used to that sort of look from marines. I like the cables and what-nots sticking out. But overall i like them.

edit: should probably mention most importantly, they don't look like they're all squatting down, they're standing up like normal people. Most of the older marines look like someone's given them a wedgie and they're trying to walk it out without anyone noticing. Or else that bowl of chilli last night just hit them and they're hoping they can make it through the battle before something bad happens.

The models are pretty, but scale-creep makes the baby Jesus cry.

Love the models, haven't read the fluff and I'm not going to. Will be collecting them when they come out.

I don't care about the Fluff as much as others.

Though I think they are a nice change of pace from normal Marines for some games.

dosiere wrote:
The models seem legit, the fluff is a perfect example of why everyone makes fun of GW sometimes.

How would you do it?

 Torga_DW wrote:

edit: should probably mention most importantly, they don't look like they're all squatting down, they're standing up like normal people. Most of the older marines look like someone's given them a wedgie and they're trying to walk it out without anyone noticing. Or else that bowl of chilli last night just hit them and they're hoping they can make it through the battle before something bad happens.

"Legs wide" is the codex approved method of advancing. It offers a lower profile to the enemy, and a steadier firing position for the holy bolter.

Or do you want to hold your head high and proud in a firefight?