ross-128 wrote:
As someone who has played quite a few FPS games with vehicles in them, I can confirm that running over people who are both aware of your presence and trying to avoid you is harder than it looks. 6+ to hit is a little extreme, but it is hard enough to justify a roll to hit in general.

Which is why roadkills happen to friendlies more often than enemies... an enemy will pay immediate attention to your vehicle and actively avoid it. An ally will assume your vehicle is completely harmless, and run across the road right in front of you. Always evade a moving vehicle as if it was an enemy, people. Just because I don't want to hit you doesn't mean I can see you or stop in time to avoid it.

Anyway, I think it's interesting. I'm going to miss tank shock's ability to just run things clean off the board, but I also look forward to being able to do what is basically still a tank shock with any vehicle. I do hope that tanks apply some kind of penalty to enemy battleshock when they assault though, just to keep that "tanks be scary" vibe.

Another interesting factor is since vehicles now use the same assault rules as everything else, a unit assaulted by a tank is "stuck in" and would have to declare a fall-back move to get out of it. Combined with the removal of rear armor and that means you can tarpit (to such an extent as tarpit still exists) with a vehicle. For example, roll up on an enemy with a Chimera and a squad inside. Drop the squad off about 6" away, shoot with the squad, then assault with the Chimera. Now the enemy unit can't shoot back on their next turn, either they have to stay stuck-in with the Chimera, or they have to fall back, sacrifice their shooting, and still be in rapid-fire range!

Gaunts or Boyz bearing down on you? Shoot 'em with your infantry, then charge the Chimeras in to tarpit them. Disengaging from the Chimeras would force them to move *away* from your infantry (and get shot more), but staying stuck-in would leave them tied up and your infantry free to shoot other things, like maybe the anti-tank units they're going to try to use to break said tarpit.

I wonder if dozer blades will count as a close combat weapon, and I wonder if vehicle close combat weapons will improve that abysmal 6+ to hit. Though I expect vehicles *meant* for CC will probably actually have a decent WS like 4+ or so.

 MagicJuggler wrote:


The issue this is that in an FPS game, the infantryman you're trying to run over is moving out of the way. Which is what Tank Shock did: it forced models to displace for positional gain.

The problem with this mechanic is that you now have physics akin to Street Cleaning Simulator where a tank rolls up, rolls to hit with itself, but comes just comically short of actually hitting anyone.

Not to mention that by replacing weapon skill with fixed "to-hit" rolls, that tank has the same chance of hitting a Grot, an immobilized Gorkanaut, another Land Raider, and will always grind to a halt no matter what simply because tank shock is gone and there is no model-displacement mechanic.

 MagicJuggler wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
As someone who has played quite a few FPS games with vehicles in them, I can confirm that running over people who are both aware of your presence and trying to avoid you is harder than it looks. 6+ to hit is a little extreme, but it is hard enough to justify a roll to hit in general.

Which is why roadkills happen to friendlies more often than enemies... an enemy will pay immediate attention to your vehicle and actively avoid it. An ally will assume your vehicle is completely harmless, and run across the road right in front of you. Always evade a moving vehicle as if it was an enemy, people. Just because I don't want to hit you doesn't mean I can see you or stop in time to avoid it.

Anyway, I think it's interesting. I'm going to miss tank shock's ability to just run things clean off the board, but I also look forward to being able to do what is basically still a tank shock with any vehicle. I do hope that tanks apply some kind of penalty to enemy battleshock when they assault though, just to keep that "tanks be scary" vibe.

Another interesting factor is since vehicles now use the same assault rules as everything else, a unit assaulted by a tank is "stuck in" and would have to declare a fall-back move to get out of it. Combined with the removal of rear armor and that means you can tarpit (to such an extent as tarpit still exists) with a vehicle. For example, roll up on an enemy with a Chimera and a squad inside. Drop the squad off about 6" away, shoot with the squad, then assault with the Chimera. Now the enemy unit can't shoot back on their next turn, either they have to stay stuck-in with the Chimera, or they have to fall back, sacrifice their shooting, and still be in rapid-fire range!

Gaunts or Boyz bearing down on you? Shoot 'em with your infantry, then charge the Chimeras in to tarpit them. Disengaging from the Chimeras would force them to move *away* from your infantry (and get shot more), but staying stuck-in would leave them tied up and your infantry free to shoot other things, like maybe the anti-tank units they're going to try to use to break said tarpit.

I wonder if dozer blades will count as a close combat weapon, and I wonder if vehicle close combat weapons will improve that abysmal 6+ to hit. Though I expect vehicles *meant* for CC will probably actually have a decent WS like 4+ or so.

The issue this is that in an FPS game, the infantryman you're trying to run over is moving out of the way. Which is what Tank Shock did: it forced models to displace for positional gain.

The problem with this mechanic is that you now have physics akin to Street Cleaning Simulator where a tank rolls up, rolls to hit with itself, but comes just comically short of actually hitting anyone.

Not to mention that by replacing weapon skill with fixed "to-hit" rolls, that tank has the same chance of hitting a Grot, an immobilized Gorkanaut, another Land Raider, and will always grind to a halt no matter what simply because tank shock is gone and there is no model-displacement mechanic.

 NenkotaMoon wrote:
I WaNt My STuPid BloAted AnD UnBalaNCEd RuLEs BacK!!!!

 NenkotaMoon wrote:
I WaNt My STuPid BloAted AnD UnBalaNCEd RuLEs BacK!!!!

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Tank Shock is dead. Combine this with a flat to-hit system and you now have a game where you have a Schrodinger's Cat scenario where a vehicle manages to both hit and miss its target at the same time.

Let us suppose a (hypothetical) scenario where a Land Raider is surrounded by Grots. It can't Tank Shock and it wants to shoot its Lascannons at a more important target so it now rolls to charge.

It rolls to hit. It misses. Is this because the Land Raider has automatic braking? Is it because the Grot is made of iron? Who knows? Anyway, these puny things have stopped a giant monstrosity from moving in a sheer defiance of physics or sanity.

The Grots disengage and proceed to surround the Land Raider again.

Welcome to 8th edition.

 Luciferian wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:


The issue this is that in an FPS game, the infantryman you're trying to run over is moving out of the way. Which is what Tank Shock did: it forced models to displace for positional gain.

The problem with this mechanic is that you now have physics akin to Street Cleaning Simulator where a tank rolls up, rolls to hit with itself, but comes just comically short of actually hitting anyone.

Not to mention that by replacing weapon skill with fixed "to-hit" rolls, that tank has the same chance of hitting a Grot, an immobilized Gorkanaut, another Land Raider, and will always grind to a halt no matter what simply because tank shock is gone and there is no model-displacement mechanic.

All abstractions for the sake of a quick, fun and balanced game. You really can't imagine any situation where the guy a tank is trying to run over simply dives out of the way? Also, you're looking at it like player actions are the actual, chronologically accurate representation of events. In the game world, all of these things are happening simultaneously. Grots don't just move ten feet, then stand there and wait to be charged by a Land Raider, which then just comes to a dead stop and waits for the grots to move away again. We just have to play it that way because... well, it's a turn-based game.

 MagicJuggler wrote:

 Luciferian wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:


The issue this is that in an FPS game, the infantryman you're trying to run over is moving out of the way. Which is what Tank Shock did: it forced models to displace for positional gain.

The problem with this mechanic is that you now have physics akin to Street Cleaning Simulator where a tank rolls up, rolls to hit with itself, but comes just comically short of actually hitting anyone.

Not to mention that by replacing weapon skill with fixed "to-hit" rolls, that tank has the same chance of hitting a Grot, an immobilized Gorkanaut, another Land Raider, and will always grind to a halt no matter what simply because tank shock is gone and there is no model-displacement mechanic.

All abstractions for the sake of a quick, fun and balanced game. You really can't imagine any situation where the guy a tank is trying to run over simply dives out of the way? Also, you're looking at it like player actions are the actual, chronologically accurate representation of events. In the game world, all of these things are happening simultaneously. Grots don't just move ten feet, then stand there and wait to be charged by a Land Raider, which then just comes to a dead stop and waits for the grots to move away again. We just have to play it that way because... well, it's a turn-based game.

It's not so much the person is diving out of the way that's the issue, so much as the fact that there's a significant violation of common sense that the tank in question has ground to a halt just because a bunch of enemy models are walking in front. A Space Marine is an angel of death, not a grumpy Times Square taxi driver having to deal with tourists clogging up the roadway.

 MagicJuggler wrote:


It's not so much the person is diving out of the way that's the issue, so much as the fact that there's a significant violation of common sense that the tank in question has ground to a halt just because a bunch of enemy models are walking in front. A Space Marine is an angel of death, not a grumpy Times Square taxi driver having to deal with tourists clogging up the roadway.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Tank Shock is dead. Combine this with a flat to-hit system and you now have a game where you have a Schrodinger's Cat scenario where a vehicle manages to both hit and miss its target at the same time.

Let us suppose a (hypothetical) scenario where a Land Raider is surrounded by Grots. It can't Tank Shock and it wants to shoot its Lascannons at a more important target so it now rolls to charge.

It rolls to hit. It misses. Is this because the Land Raider has automatic braking? Is it because the Grot is made of iron? Who knows? Anyway, these puny things have stopped a giant monstrosity from moving in a sheer defiance of physics or sanity.

The Grots disengage and proceed to surround the Land Raider again.

Welcome to 8th edition.

 Xenomancers wrote:
How BA are dreads going to be ?!?!?

Martel732 wrote:
I don't know. Pod and frag is gone, but that always seemed a bit cheap to me anyway. I'll take off the heavy flamers and put the meltas back on probably. No biggie. Keep the frag cannon for if they fail to take me out.

SilverAlien wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Tank Shock is dead. Combine this with a flat to-hit system and you now have a game where you have a Schrodinger's Cat scenario where a vehicle manages to both hit and miss its target at the same time.

Let us suppose a (hypothetical) scenario where a Land Raider is surrounded by Grots. It can't Tank Shock and it wants to shoot its Lascannons at a more important target so it now rolls to charge.

It rolls to hit. It misses. Is this because the Land Raider has automatic braking? Is it because the Grot is made of iron? Who knows? Anyway, these puny things have stopped a giant monstrosity from moving in a sheer defiance of physics or sanity.

The Grots disengage and proceed to surround the Land Raider again.

Welcome to 8th edition.

I am... very confused. What exactly are the grots trying to accomplish? The land raider can still fire at anyone it wants if they keep disengaging. Why did the Landraider charge at all? But anyways, in the example you gave, I rather imagine the grots could be climbing over on the vehicle, trying to jam it's treads, blocking the pilot's sight, etc. The pilot in turn is trying to knock them off and/or crush them. He could just ignore them and drive over them.... in the same way any other unit could just ignore the unit it is engage with and try to walk/dodge past them.

Yes, vehicles probably should have some equivalent of HoW when charging. But honestly it's not really that odd to me, having had bikers charge into rippers which somehow totally stopped my bikers. Oh, and how hard my bike rams into something is based on the personal strength of the rider.

So, now at least we just have one set of simple rules that won't always correctly model the real world, rather than a dozen sets of hideously bloated rules that won't always correctly model the real world. Progress in my mind.

Martel732 wrote:
I want to see models crushed by the Deffrollas again!

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Tank Shock is dead. Combine this with a flat to-hit system and you now have a game where you have a Schrodinger's Cat scenario where a vehicle manages to both hit and miss its target at the same time.

Let us suppose a (hypothetical) scenario where a Land Raider is surrounded by Grots. It can't Tank Shock and it wants to shoot its Lascannons at a more important target so it now rolls to charge.

It rolls to hit. It misses. Is this because the Land Raider has automatic braking? Is it because the Grot is made of iron? Who knows? Anyway, these puny things have stopped a giant monstrosity from moving in a sheer defiance of physics or sanity.

The Grots disengage and proceed to surround the Land Raider again.

Welcome to 8th edition.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
See, if the game allowed models to "push" other units with lower toughness/wounds. Maybe make semi-random, or something akin to Bulldoze in Warmachine.

Other abstractions (difficulty disengaging from melees) were relatively believable for assorted reasons (The Assault Marines only disengage as a unit, etc) while "I go you go" is a general compromise for simplifying overall game flow so you're not doing something like "impulse turn base" ala Starfleet Battles.

Rather, an entire form of movement was removed from the game, alongside the options it allowed (disrupting enemy battlelines, setting up AOEs, moving stuff out of cover, etc).