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Strategy and tactics are incredibly broad. The Iron Warriors and Perturabo are great strategists and tacticians, but their expertise is specialised. They are the best in the entire galaxy when it comes to besieging enemy strongholds.
However that doesn't mean that they are similarly good in other circumstances.

Overall, however, the Iron Warriors certainly rank among the best strategists and tacticians of the legions, simply because they are the most pragmatic legion and disdain unnecessary complications of any kind. And in 99% of cases, the most simple strategy is also the most effective one. It may not be beautiful, but you can rely on it to do the job well.

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They are cold and calculating and very efficient.


People and marines are nothing but assets to the IW, if it costs 1000 slaves to test the range of the enemy guns, then so be it. Especially if you just got those POWs in the last battle.

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I think that their strategic strength is found mainly in knowing where to apply pressure. They don't win purely by using more men and guns than the enemy, they win by knowing where to aim them to maximum effect. Also, they know how to overcome the enemies tactics, where to position themselves so they can attack without being attacked, how to move forwards under fire without excessive lose etc.

Perturabo was definitely an innovative primarch, he just kept quiet about it and let the others underestimate him (as shown when Lionel gave him those big guns). Fulgrim said that he was probably the greatest of them, he just didn't have the charisma to make many friends.

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 Deadshot wrote:
 DarknessEternal wrote:
Hierophant wrote:

He seemed to win battles and campaigns purely by having more and better supplies, troops, and technology than his opponents, and throwing the kitchen sink at them.

That's Horus exactly. He threw his armies into a wood-chipper because he always had the superior position and never had to do anything else. You want over-hyped startegist primarch, it's Horus.



i say that's top level strategy. Stack the odds in your favour, or wait til they are stacked, then decimate. Instead of, like the World Eaters, through endless bodies into the mix regardless of situation,.

You missed the point. Throw bodies into the mix regardless of the situation was Horus' only strategy. He just always had more and better bodies.

He started exactly one fight where he didn't have an overwhelming material advantage, and he died at the end of it.

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This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.


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 DarknessEternal wrote:
 Deadshot wrote:
 DarknessEternal wrote:
Hierophant wrote:

He seemed to win battles and campaigns purely by having more and better supplies, troops, and technology than his opponents, and throwing the kitchen sink at them.

That's Horus exactly. He threw his armies into a wood-chipper because he always had the superior position and never had to do anything else. You want over-hyped startegist primarch, it's Horus.



i say that's top level strategy. Stack the odds in your favour, or wait til they are stacked, then decimate. Instead of, like the World Eaters, through endless bodies into the mix regardless of situation,.

You missed the point. Throw bodies into the mix regardless of the situation was Horus' only strategy. He just always had more and better bodies.

He started exactly one fight where he didn't have an overwhelming material advantage, and he died at the end of it.


Well, the XVI had the best record of any Legion and as you say, the one time he didn't do this, he ended up dead. I say if it aint broke don't fix it.

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 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:
Sort of off-topic, but I miss the bit of lore where there were Iron Warrior Khorne Berserkers. From what I remember, the day to day business of sieges was drudgery for the Iron Warriors, and some became somewhat unhinged and absolutely lived for the moments of storming the breach/going over the top. After the Heresy those guys were unsurprisingly drawn to Khorne. I think I read that in an old White Dwarf. My small Iron Warriors force back then had a single unit of Khorne Berserkers and a Basilisk.


Storm of Iron also had IW Bezerkers in it.

He seemed to win battles and campaigns purely by having more and better supplies, troops, and technology than his opponents, and throwing the kitchen sink at them.

er...that IS tactics.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/19 18:22:56


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 Manchu wrote:
It does not have to be. For example, Dorn employed the strategy at the Iron Cage. Was its application valid?
It sure was, when you consider that the entire operation was basically just an excuse for Dorn to kill tons of Imperial Fists and stick it to Guilliman.

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 DarknessEternal wrote:
Throw bodies into the mix regardless of the situation was Horus' only strategy.
Ah well we are more often told that Horus is great than shown it - again, because being a good fiction writer isn't the same as being a general staff officer, a military historian, or a great strategic genius. This is why we end up with all kinds of characterization of the Primarchs' personalities (that usually tend to make them seem unimpressive) instead of examples of them being brilliant leaders. In the end, we just have to accept the rote statement that Horus was an amazing general despite the inability/unwillingness of the fiction writers to demonstrate it.
 BlaxicanX wrote:
 Manchu wrote:
It does not have to be. For example, Dorn employed the strategy at the Iron Cage. Was its application valid?
It sure was, when you consider that the entire operation was basically just an excuse for Dorn to kill tons of Imperial Fists and stick it to Guilliman.
So you're saying, he wanted to be dumb so he used the dumbest tactical approach possible. Agreed. Of course, this is a story about a two dudes that are mad at each other rather than a believable military scenario.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/05/19 18:29:04


   
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I always thought the Iron Warriors are an overlooked and under rated legion. A legion that got on with the job and would get their hands dirty. If a jobs worth an astartes dying for, you would bound to find Iron Warriors at the end of it. I think the generalisation of them sending wave after wave in siege assaults no matter what the cost to be a poor judgement of the legion. Yes there are examples where sieges degenerated into this, but the Iron Warriors were specialists in siege breaking warfare, particularly with artillery and strategic bombardment. The Iron Warriors doctrine was to contain, isolate and then soften strong points in a defensive line first, and then with such openings send in the specialist assault units. Siege assaults are always costly but to put it into perspective the Iron Warriors could achieve better results, more quickly and with less casualties than their less skilled brother legions. It was not a role other legions liked doing and the Iron Warriors got the stigma of doing the dirty work. I would also say the Iron Warriors are just as good at static defences as Dorn's Imperial Fists. With all their acquired knowledge in breaking defences, they have a pretty good idea at how to make impenetrable defences too.

So are Iron Warriors good tacticians? Definitely.
   
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In storm of iron they used captured imp guards as cannon fodder to test enemy max range on artilery.

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I figure that the Iron Warriors see themselves as Benjamin from Animal Farm, while others see them as Eeyore from Winnie the Pooh.

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 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:
I figure that the Iron Warriors see themselves as Benjamin from Animal Farm, while others see them as Eeyore from Winnie the Pooh.


I imagine they see themselves more as Boxer; worked to death then sold to the scrap yard.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/19 20:43:06


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avoiding the lorax on Crion

 Sentinel1 wrote:
I always thought the Iron Warriors are an overlooked and under rated legion. A legion that got on with the job and would get their hands dirty. If a jobs worth an astartes dying for, you would bound to find Iron Warriors at the end of it. I think the generalisation of them sending wave after wave in siege assaults no matter what the cost to be a poor judgement of the legion. Yes there are examples where sieges degenerated into this, but the Iron Warriors were specialists in siege breaking warfare, particularly with artillery and strategic bombardment. The Iron Warriors doctrine was to contain, isolate and then soften strong points in a defensive line first, and then with such openings send in the specialist assault units. Siege assaults are always costly but to put it into perspective the Iron Warriors could achieve better results, more quickly and with less casualties than their less skilled brother legions. It was not a role other legions liked doing and the Iron Warriors got the stigma of doing the dirty work. I would also say the Iron Warriors are just as good at static defences as Dorn's Imperial Fists. With all their acquired knowledge in breaking defences, they have a pretty good idea at how to make impenetrable defences too.

So are Iron Warriors good tacticians? Definitely.


Aye. They are very good at finding a chink in enemy defences and have specialist unit who can attack it with the right tactics to minimize rhefe losses.

Also from some books they excel at the mathematics, they can build trenches, gun positions, siege lines with greater speed and skill than others, when best to tangent tremches and how to find any bastians weakest spot, and how tp exploit it. Also have all the logistical gear ready, ammo, sheet metal for trenches, machines to drill rock for heavy guns to fire off and mnay other "boring" things that you need.

It might be dirty and not so glorious but they so it better than any others.


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 Deadshot wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Is it great strategy or is just having everything written in your favour? It feels a lot like the second to me.



Well given that its fiction with a pre-determined outcome they can't pull a shocker and have Perturabo die in some random siege. It requires being written so they can win. But they are great strategists. A bad strategist dives in headfirst regardless of whether he is in a position to win or not. Why attack a fortress when all you have is a heavy bolter? Its suicide. Attack a weakly defended fortress with multiple artillery batteries and shock assault troops, using orbital bombardment to land troops on the group and set up siege positions? Its not great strategy, its basic strategy.

No but they could have him in a battle where he doesn't have the advantage. I'm not asking for stupidity just not stupid luck.

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 MrVulcanator wrote:
So the lore for Iron Warriors describes them as brilliant strategists and siegers. But on the other hand they seem to rely quite heavily on throwing themselves at the enemy until their foe runs out of ammunition. Wouldn't it be more effective not to do that?

I always took "themselves" to mean the cheap, inexhaustible fodder - the mortal slave-soldiers, conscripts, cultists, etc. Not the actual marines themselves. They sit back and wait until the enemy guns are dry and there's a couple of cracks in the enemy walls, then, using the mountain of dead that went before them, storm the breach and slaughter/enslave those trapped within.

 Manchu wrote:
At some point, you have to accept that the guy writing the fluff about the strategic and tactical genius of the characters is not himself necessarily a strategic or tactical genius.

Pretty much. It's always prudent to remember that the setting and fluff are there to prop up a tabletop wargame, and is written by, well, tabletop wargame enthusiasts, and therefore not military tacticians and strategists.

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:
The Iron Warriors are supposed to be really good a logistics and that's a pretty important part of strategy, but not everything.

More than you'd think, though. What's that saying? Amateurs talk tactics while Generals talk logistics? Basically, once you pull back from the immediate, singular situation of any given battlefield or firefight, everything is logistics.

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:
Sort of off-topic, but I miss the bit of lore where there were Iron Warrior Khorne Berserkers. From what I remember, the day to day business of sieges was drudgery for the Iron Warriors, and some became somewhat unhinged and absolutely lived for the moments of storming the breach/going over the top. After the Heresy those guys were unsurprisingly drawn to Khorne. I think I read that in an old White Dwarf. My small Iron Warriors force back then had a single unit of Khorne Berserkers and a Basilisk.

Curious question: why do you miss it? Why do you talk about it as if it's something that is lost/no longer there? As far as I'm aware, nothing has changed with IW lore in that regard. As in, they're just as well known for their focus, devotion and skill in the storming assault phase of the seige as they are for the attritious artillery barrages and meat-shield grinding phases. No?
   
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 Anfauglir wrote:
 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:
Sort of off-topic, but I miss the bit of lore where there were Iron Warrior Khorne Berserkers. From what I remember, the day to day business of sieges was drudgery for the Iron Warriors, and some became somewhat unhinged and absolutely lived for the moments of storming the breach/going over the top. After the Heresy those guys were unsurprisingly drawn to Khorne. I think I read that in an old White Dwarf. My small Iron Warriors force back then had a single unit of Khorne Berserkers and a Basilisk.

Curious question: why do you miss it? Why do you talk about it as if it's something that is lost/no longer there? As far as I'm aware, nothing has changed with IW lore in that regard. As in, they're just as well known for their focus, devotion and skill in the storming assault phase of the seige as they are for the attritious artillery barrages and meat-shield grinding phases. No?

To use the Iron Warriors special rules we can't take any unit with a Mark, and Khorne Berserkers have a Mark of Khorne. I guess that actually doesn't affect the existing lore, it just means that I can't reflect that bit of fluff on the tabletop. Even then I guess I could just take another detachment that has Khorne Berserkers in it and just say they're Iron Warriors in spirit if not in rules.

I'm excited to see what 8th Edition does with the rules.

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 Anfauglir wrote:
 MrVulcanator wrote:
So the lore for Iron Warriors describes them as brilliant strategists and siegers. But on the other hand they seem to rely quite heavily on throwing themselves at the enemy until their foe runs out of ammunition. Wouldn't it be more effective not to do that?

I always took "themselves" to mean the cheap, inexhaustible fodder - the mortal slave-soldiers, conscripts, cultists, etc. Not the actual marines themselves. They sit back and wait until the enemy guns are dry and there's a couple of cracks in the enemy walls, then, using the mountain of dead that went before them, storm the breach and slaughter/enslave those trapped within.

 Manchu wrote:
At some point, you have to accept that the guy writing the fluff about the strategic and tactical genius of the characters is not himself necessarily a strategic or tactical genius.

Pretty much. It's always prudent to remember that the setting and fluff are there to prop up a tabletop wargame, and is written by, well, tabletop wargame enthusiasts, and therefore not military tacticians and strategists.

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:
The Iron Warriors are supposed to be really good a logistics and that's a pretty important part of strategy, but not everything.

More than you'd think, though. What's that saying? Amateurs talk tactics while Generals talk logistics? Basically, once you pull back from the immediate, singular situation of any given battlefield or firefight, everything is logistics.

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:
Sort of off-topic, but I miss the bit of lore where there were Iron Warrior Khorne Berserkers. From what I remember, the day to day business of sieges was drudgery for the Iron Warriors, and some became somewhat unhinged and absolutely lived for the moments of storming the breach/going over the top. After the Heresy those guys were unsurprisingly drawn to Khorne. I think I read that in an old White Dwarf. My small Iron Warriors force back then had a single unit of Khorne Berserkers and a Basilisk.

Curious question: why do you miss it? Why do you talk about it as if it's something that is lost/no longer there? As far as I'm aware, nothing has changed with IW lore in that regard. As in, they're just as well known for their focus, devotion and skill in the storming assault phase of the seige as they are for the attritious artillery barrages and meat-shield grinding phases. No?


They like some close combat blood n guts much as the next chaos marine.
However they also engineer, work, bombard, decoy and grind there way before to make sure that assault has best odds of working and enemy had least possible advantages.

There cold but not suicidal.
If it takes a months work to lay trench, build, bombard, weaken and prepare to crack the fortress it shall be done.

Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.

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 Sentinel1 wrote:
I think the generalisation of them sending wave after wave in siege assaults no matter what the cost to be a poor judgement of the legion.
There is a quote straight from Perturabo's war-journal about one of his great-companies achieving their objective with less casualties then expected, resulting in Perturabo censuring the victorious Grand Company for "lack of zeal".

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/05/19 22:58:57


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'Straya... Mate.

They are the unstoppable force to an immovable object, their tactics involve throwing everything they can against a stronghold or fortress.

Some of their forces will charge until the pile of bodies form a ramp to walk up the wall, others prefer to use artillery on a weak spot relentlessly until they fall.

This is encapsulated by their motto: iron within, iron without

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/19 23:01:17


 
   
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 Rippy wrote:
They are the unstoppable force to an immovable object, their tactics involve throwing everything they can against a stronghold or fortress.

Some of their forces will charge until the pile of bodies form a ramp to walk up the wall, others prefer to use artillery on a weak spot relentlessly until they fall.

This is encapsulated by their motto: iron within, iron without



Except pretty much 99.9% of the bodies are human infantry used in preparation to the IW marines attack.
Storm of Uron makes it clear they will happily throw chaff ag you for days until they decide its ready for there attack.

Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.

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 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:
To use the Iron Warriors special rules we can't take any unit with a Mark, and Khorne Berserkers have a Mark of Khorne. I guess that actually doesn't affect the existing lore, it just means that I can't reflect that bit of fluff on the tabletop.

Ah, okay. I got confused because you said lore but you meant rules.

 jhe90 wrote:
They like some close combat blood n guts much as the next chaos marine.
However they also engineer, work, bombard, decoy and grind there way before to make sure that assault has best odds of working and enemy had least possible advantages.

There cold but not suicidal.
If it takes a months work to lay trench, build, bombard, weaken and prepare to crack the fortress it shall be done.

Didn't say otherwise.
   
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Oh hell yeah. Storm of Iron offers incredible insight to how they wage war. I'm more of an Imperial than chaos fan these days but that book is one of the best novels I've read in my life. Intense back and forth action that keeps you guessing, and intelligent planning and use of tactics make it the first book you should ever read If you like Iron Warriors or Chaos Marines

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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/20 02:15:55


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In a galaxy with orbital bombardment, aircraft of all kinds, projectile and energy weapons galore yet many seem to insist on combat taking place by foot soldiers using swords and axes, is anyone a particularly good tactician?

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/05/20 02:27:43


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 Coldstream wrote:
In a galaxy with orbital bombardment, aircraft of all kinds, projectile and energy weapons galore yet many seem to insist on combat taking place by foot soldiers using swords and axes, is anyone a particularly good tactician?


Sometimes you wanna actually TAKE the target. ortbital bombardm,ent is great if the planet is of no value to you.

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We should remember that Dorn was not thinking right at the Iron Cage. He was still stricken with grief and blamed himself for the Emperor's death, and he had been flagellating and physically punishing himself as a result. The Iron Cage was an act of atonement, a way for Dorn and his legion to wash away the sin of failure, as all of his best traits were magnified by grief into becoming sins.

Perturabo exploited that and made Dorn pay, just as Dorn exploited the weaknesses of the various traitor legions at the Siege of Terra. Perturabo was arguably the best-performing traitor primarch at Terra as his legion did a good job at breaching the walls, although the Death Guard seem to have been reasonably well-disciplined as well. If not for Perturabo's skill at siegecraft the traitor's defeat could have been even worse than it was.

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avoiding the lorax on Crion

BrianDavion wrote:
 Coldstream wrote:
In a galaxy with orbital bombardment, aircraft of all kinds, projectile and energy weapons galore yet many seem to insist on combat taking place by foot soldiers using swords and axes, is anyone a particularly good tactician?


Sometimes you wanna actually TAKE the target. ortbital bombardm,ent is great if the planet is of no value to you.


Not best tactic if you want the gene seed intact. Plus orbital bombardment is not accurate. In storm of iron they beed beacons setting up for targeting the cannons.

Plus a real world example, we have numerous smart weapons, tanks, computermbobs and more.
One ambush the British Army won and broke enemy by engaging them with bayonets in close quarters when there APC was disabled.

Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.

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I'd say that most of the Primarchs were actually horrible tacticians. They could be great with logistics, but they sure as hell didn't know how to use an asset like Space Marines effectively, with many of them just grabbing the kitchen sink and throwing it at the enemy as footsloggers. The Lion, Guilliman, Alpharius/Omegon, Corax, and Curze were good at their jobs of profesionally managing Astartes. And not getting them killed in poorly executed charges and other nonsense.

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As an Iron Warriors fan myself I will throw my hat into the "great strategist, meh tacticians" ring. This outlook is reinforced by their specialization in siege craft. If you think about it logistics, battlefield control, and strategy are 99% of conducting a siege, with the tactics basically boiled down to "kill the guys at the other end of the trench."

They are noted as being really good at CQB, but that doesn't imply tactical superiority so much as they are just good at stabbin'.

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 jhe90 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 Coldstream wrote:
In a galaxy with orbital bombardment, aircraft of all kinds, projectile and energy weapons galore yet many seem to insist on combat taking place by foot soldiers using swords and axes, is anyone a particularly good tactician?


Sometimes you wanna actually TAKE the target. ortbital bombardm,ent is great if the planet is of no value to you.


Not best tactic if you want the gene seed intact. Plus orbital bombardment is not accurate. In storm of iron they beed beacons setting up for targeting the cannons.

Plus a real world example, we have numerous smart weapons, tanks, computermbobs and more.
One ambush the British Army won and broke enemy by engaging them with bayonets in close quarters when there APC was disabled.
Yea, but british APCs have the assault vehicle special rule, unlike chaos rhinos.
   
 
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