Wounds and damage

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**Galef**

Marmatag wrote:
nateprati wrote:
I'm also wondering if you get to roll fnp on damage for a mortal wound. If not mortal wound high damage weapons will be sick

*Thus far* there is no indication that you wouldn't be able to roll both FNP and reanimation protocols - in their current form - for mortal wounds. It seems like instant death is a thing of the past. It may still be true that being doubled-out will negate FNP, or maybe you can make 1 FNP roll maximum, so taking 2 damage on a 1-wound model means death to FNP regardless. We really don't know.

For the sake of speed and ease of play, if I personally was writing the rules, I would say 1 FNP roll per wound. So if you take 2 damage, you can make 1 FNP roll on one damage, and the other goes through regardless. But that's me.

I honestly think that taking "FNP" rolls per damage, rather than per failed save, is the solution GW went with.
For example, a Marine does not get FNP against a Lascannon in 7E due to instant death.
In 8E, you basically don't get it because the chances are ridiculous. Instead of needing to pass 1 FNP for the failed save, you have to pass D6 rolls. At 5+ that is a bit unlikely

It isn't the most elegant solution, but it should prevent FNP Deathstars from being a thing. So I'll take it.
Hopefully Necrons get a 5+ RP that can only be boosted to 4+ by nearby Crypteks.

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**Grey Templar**

Cmdr_Sune wrote:
Wayniac wrote:
Sonic Keyboard wrote:
I wonder what happens if you hit a multi-wound unit that has FnP several times with a weapon with multiple damage?

So you hit these nid warriors with 4 lascannons, lets say you roll 2, 3, 5 and 6 for damage. Do you now roll FnP separately for damage of each hit? Or if you roll it all at the same time how do you know what hit goes where and prevent damage from spreading?

I assume you would roll FnP after allocating, and before the damage is applied. Since I'm pretty sure 40k will have the same rule AOS does where you have to allocate wounds to one model at a time (with very few things to circumvent this) you would apply the 2 damage, roll FnP and apply, then the 3, the 5 and then the 6, allocating any wounds that get through to a model. So let's say the 2 get through, one model would have 2 wounds on it. Then you check for the 3. Let's say these go through too and kills a model (not sure how many wounds Tyranid Warriors have now), now you check for the 5, and let's say you roll super good and save all of them, finally you check for the 6 and save 3 of them, so one model has 3 wounds applied to it, and you've lost 1 model from the unit.

Ok so:
1. Roll to hit with 4 shots.
2. Roll to wound with shots.
3. Take armor saves.
4. Roll damage for first wound and apply to single model.
5. Take FnP.
6. If model is not killed roll damage for next wound to the same model.
7. Take FnP.
8. If model is killed roll damage for next model else continue to roll damage for the same model.

This will slow down game play considerably.

No, I believe it will be,

1) Roll to hit
2) Roll to wound
3) take armor saves
4) take FnP
5) roll for any random number of wounds and apply.

**ross-128**

The major catch for FNP, from what I understand, is that saves occur *before* you roll damage, but FNP occurs *after*.

So FNP can be very effective against one-damage weapons, but not so much against multi-damage. If you get hit by a lascannon that rolls/would have rolled 6 damage, passing a single save would block all 6 by negating that hit. But if you fail the save, you're going to have to roll FNP 6 times and pass all of them to get the same effect.

Edit:

This doesn't mean you have to resolve one model at a time though. You could do for example:
1: Roll hits
2: Roll toughness
3: Roll saves
4: Allocate and mark wounds
5: Proceed to roll FNPs while removing models.

**Galef**

Grey Templar wrote:

No, I believe it will be,

1) Roll to hit
2) Roll to wound
3) take armor saves
4) take FnP
5) roll for any random number of wounds and apply.

We actually know for sure that 4 & 5 are swapped. In one of the Faction focuses, they stated that weapons that cause multiple damage per wound would create multiple "FNP" rolls
So rolls 'to hit', 'to wound' and 'saves' are all on a 1:1 basis. But "FNP" rolls are taken AFTER the damage is determined.
So a Lascannon is 1 shot = 1 wound = 1 save = D6 damage = D6 FNP rolls

ross-128 wrote:

This doesn't mean you have to resolve one model at a time though. You could do for example:
1: Roll hits
2: Roll toughness
3: Roll saves
4: Allocate and mark wounds
5: Proceed to roll FNPs while removing models.

This doesn't quite work for multi-wound models as a single 3w model could get killed by 1 Lascannon, or still need 3 to take it out because you keep rolling '1' for the damage.
You can roll all saves at once, but damage and FNP needs to be rolled for each model until it dies before you roll for the next.

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**Grey Templar**

Hmm, so they have said it works that way. That's kinda stupid IMO.

**Galef**

It's not really stupid as it solves the issue of not having Instant Death to ignore it. Mullti-damage weapons don't ignore it, but it doesn't make your chances very good.
It also makes it hard to make Deathstars that rely on FNP mechanics

It will only slow down games if both players have mostly multi-wound models with FNP AND a ton of multi-damage weapons. This should be INCREDIBLY rare.
And even in games where this might come up, both players SHOULD know how to roll through this quickly. Because they picked those units

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**Martel732**

I'll trade a bit of slow-down for fairness, anyway.

**Marmatag**

The problem with FNP is that it is too good.

FNP or equivalent "post save" roll should be capped at 5+. That includes reanimation protocols.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
I'll trade a bit of slow-down for fairness, anyway.

This too

**Martel732**

You know what's really quick? Realizing I can't hurt that Riptide and packing my models up. I don't need to roll any dice.

**Galef**

Martel732 wrote:
You know what's really quick? Realizing I can't hurt that Riptide and packing my models up. I don't need to roll any dice.

And just think, Bolters now cause twice as many wounds to a T6 models (cuz they wound on 5+) and even a Heavy Bolter has an affect on a 2+ armour.
And a Lascannon will cause more than 1 wound.
8E is looking better every day.

**Talamare**

Martel732 wrote:
I'll trade a bit of slow-down for fairness, anyway.

NEVER ARGUE "FAIRNESS"!
-Rest isn't directed at you-

The last thing I want to see is wound allocation shenanigans returning.
If my unit shoots 10 Lascannons into your squad, it doesn't make any sense for you to be allowed to allocate all 10 shots into 1 model.

So how COULD it possibility work?

Roll Saves, Roll Damage, Roll FNP for each damage SET... Since we know 1 Lascannon 6 damage shot can only kill 1 model.
Declare allocation.

So, here is what will likely end up happening...

4 Lascannon Shots, with 1, 1, 6, 6 damage
That should kill 3 dudes with 2 wounds. What will likely happen is two dudes will receive 1 and 6 damage respectively.

**Galef**

How does this 1,1,6,6 whatever keep coming up?
You roll damage per model until it dies. The defender does not get to allocate damage, he gets to allocate failed saves

The defender roll saves, then picks A MODEL to apply them to until it dies. So for 4 Lascannon wounds, this happens:
Select Model A: roll/apply damage for the first failed save
Did it die? No, roll/apply damage from the second failed save. Yes, Select Model B
Repeat until the damage from all 4 failed saved is spend.

Where has it been said that you roll all the damage BEFORE selecting models to apply it to?

**Martel732**

I'll argue fairness all day if i like.

**Ballasar**

Galef wrote:
How does this 1,1,6,6 whatever keep coming up?
You roll damage per model until it dies. The defender does not get to allocate damage, he gets to allocate failed saves

The defender roll saves, then picks A MODEL to apply them to until it dies. So for 4 Lascannon wounds, this happens:
Select Model A: roll/apply damage for the first failed save
Did it die? No, roll/apply damage from the second failed save. Yes, Select Model B
Repeat until the damage from all 4 failed saved is spend.

Where has it been said that you roll all the damage BEFORE selecting models to apply it to?

Why not just take rhe14 damage and roll your fnp then apply unsaved wounds up to a max of 4 dead models?

**Galef**

Ballasar wrote:

Why not just take rhe14 damage and roll your fnp then apply unsaved wounds up to a max of 4 dead models?

Because that would maximize the damage. You have to allow each damage roll to apply to a model one at a time in case you more damage than each model can take.
Like if you roll a 4,5 or 6 on a model that only have 3 wounds. You only apply 3 wounds and remove the model and "excess" damage is lost.
Rolling one at a time is the only way to determine what is "excess".

Remember that GW has confirmed that damage does not "spill over". If you roll all the damage/FNPs at once, you create a situation where damage could spill over to the next model

But again, I am adamant that this does not take as long as people are complaining about. I've personally play tested a few situations and it takes no time at all.

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