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I still don't think that follows. At the very least, taking two for the increased odds of getting at least one extra Act of Faith. Which isn't to say that they are inherently good. I just think if you are going to take any, I would take at least 2 minimum. I don't think I would ever take more than two though because they are pricey as hell.

I also think you are underselling the importance of transports heavily. Which is fine because I think most people are.

Two key important things. First off - the added protection to the unit inside.

Second - so many scenarios. Taking an holding objectives, getting units into the enemy deployment zone, etc. Transports seem fairly important to try and get those VPs which are the actual primary win condition for Matched Play, not just killing mans.

I also think people are overstating the impact of disembarking at the beginning of movement. It's an issue to be sure because 12" move > 6" move. However, for many factions it isn't as big an issue as you might think.

To start with - you get to disembark up to 3". So it is in effect 3"+move stat. We also heavily favor Assault weapons, including flamers which don't roll to hit, so it can easily be 3+move+d6" in the move phase. Then for units which want to charge, you get the 2d6 charge roll that only has to get within 1". Sisters don't have things which can advance and charge so you only get one or the other.

Add it all together and you get on modest average 12" out of the transport for most Sisters (which means you can start your turn 20" away and still hit with flamers) 9" out if you want to hit with bolters and Repentia with a Mistress can reliably threaten charges in the 17"-20" range from the transport.

I think that is actually likely to be the exception on how you use transports though. Go for it if your enemy just gets into that range or you can set it up, but on the whole you should be looking to have them move you into midfield, where you disembark and then move into/through terrain to get closer and then charge/move into rapid fire/close quarters shooting from there while the transports run off and attempt to capture other objectives, get in the way, tie enemies down, attempt to get in the enemy deployment zone, etc.

Are you replying to me? I never said transports weren't good. At least I shouldn't have...full mech dominion spam is basically our best build. I wasn't even really commenting on the units you listed being bad.

My point was that imagifiers don't benefit those units much and that taking transports reduces the effectiveness of the imagifier, not the army as a whole.

Yeah, absolutely load up on transports, the immolator is amazing still. Just don't worry too much about AoF outside of Celestine and the turn roll.

As for the moving midfield thing...lol no, you'll be in combat by then. You get 1 movement phase before your backline's in charge range and that's if you go first.

RAI, vehicles aren't supposed to benefit from Acts of Faith.

I haven't got my hands on the book to read the exact wording, but it sounds like it may be possible to trigger the ability on vehicles by exploiting the exact wording of the rules.

But, here's the problem: because they trigger before the start of the turn, units won't be able to gain their benefits if they don't work on transports.

An imagifier can't keep up with the rest of the army. Because abilities don't work if the unit is in a transport, and debarkation happens before movement, an Imagifier can't be driven forward. If you can't use an Act of Faith on a transport, then units won't be eligible to receive an Act of Faith until they're out of range of Imagifiers and/or dead.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here's roughly how things break down:
Dominions start beyond Imagifier range, and will never be within Imagifier range. They never get an act.
Seraphim start within Imagifier range, and but can only receive Hand on turn 1 [aren't in assault, and are out of gun range], and after that are even further away than Dominions.
Retributors are going to be within gun range and can receive Guidance every turn. However, at the price required to give 75% chance of firing twice, you could also buy another squad of Retributors and have a 100% chance of firing twice, and have superior staying power.
Celestians don't do anything anyway.
Battle Sisters can chose to either have a transport or gain the benefits of Acts of Faith. And, unfortunately, if they were going to be using Hand a transport would be cheaper, and if they were going to be using Guidance, an extra squad would be cheaper.

I'm planning to run two Imagifiers in 2000 points.

They'll probably sit backfield with two units of Rets, Canoness and Exorcist. I'll just try for double shooting on the Rets most turns, but on the first turn I'll use one to catapult my Seraphim across the board alongside Celestine (who will catapult herself) for a Turn 1 charge.

4+ isn't great but you can always use a CP to reroll it. And as this happens before the movement phase, it doesn't stop you from rerolling anything else (as CP rerolls are one per phase).

At 2000 points who is thinking of taking the Brigade detachment? It's tight but doable, and I think all those command points will make all the difference by securing that crucial Act of Faith when you need it, rerolling that Meltagun damage roll of 1, and saving Celestine from dying first time.

Always waiting with baited breath for the Repressor. Rules wise what do we predict? Hard to judge when an Exorcist is T8 12 wounds and a Predator (previously same armour) is down to Rhino stats of T7 but with one more wound at 11.

As AV13 was kind of it's thing, I'm thinking around Exorcist statline M12" BS3+ WS6+ S7 T8 W12 and probably around 120 pts base with 17 Heavy Flamer and 4 Storm Bolter.

However if the fire points remain this will be pretty unique and this powerful ability could therefore push the points up to on-par with the Exorcist at around 160. Also I imagine line of sight for the fire points can be taken from any part of the tank (like the new Baneblade variants and open-topped rules) which will be SO much better than constantly fiddling between the AV13 front facing and trying to get the broadsides facing the target.

Plus advancing Repressor could still let you fire those Meltaguns out at -1 to hit perhaps?

I could also see it being T8 W11, maybe WS5+ to hit because of the Dozer Blade would be fun (like the Goliath Rockgrinder who has a melee weapon profile for this!)

One more thing:

Orders:
+20 points for an automatic use/30 points for two automatic uses
+40 points for two automatic uses with deep-strike
+Source is HQ and elites, and thus plays nice with detachment organization
+Occurs after movement phase, allowing units to get to a position to maximize effectiveness
+Has alternate version for vehicles
+More options
-Replaces target unit's shooting phase

Act of Faith
+always have a single use on a 2+
+Unit can still act normally after use
-40 points for a 50% chance of having a use.
-Occurs before movement phase, preventing maximum effectiveness

Really, Acts would be a whole lot better, and maybe worth the 40 points for a 50/50 shot, if they happened at the beginning of their relevant phases.

See, at the start of turn 1, only Hand can be used. Only Retributors' Heavy Bolters [and the Exorcists] have range to the enemy deployment zone, so Guidance is almost worthless, and nobody is in melee, so Passion is worthless, and Martyr can't be used because there have been no casualties. And even then, Hand only works on units outside of transports.
At the start of turn 2, anything that used Hand last turn is now out of range of Imagifiers, and can't receive Guidance or Martyr. Only Seraphim/Celestine can have reach combat, and they're definitely out of range of Imagifiers, so you still can't use Passion. Seraphim would rather have Guidance anyway. Units in transports last turn haven't debarked yet, so still can't use an Act.
At the start of turn 3, the Imagifiers have caught up to what's left of your shooting army, assuming you stopped advancing when you made it into range. What's left of units that used Hand on the first turn [or scouted] can now get Guidance or Martyr. Hooray, that's one extra boltgun attack! Assault troops, assuming any are left after 2 rounds of combat, are still out of range. Units that started the game in transports are now eligible to receive Acts of Faith, assuming they got out and are still alive.
At the start of turn 4, the Imagifiers have caught up to what's left of your melee troops. If your T3, Sv6++, W1 Repentia are still around after 4 rounds of combat, good for them, they get to hit twice. That assumes there's any left. At this point, if your Repentia have been in melee for 4 consecutive fight phases and are still worthwhile as a unit, you've probably won the game. What's left of your shooting units can still receive Guidance or Martyr.
At the start of turn 5, the game might as well be over. Cool, you can use all your Acts on whatever infantry you have left.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And Imagifiers are very expensive - though they are also some of the cheaper elite options. Priest is still probably better. Maybe?

Though 80 points is still a lot less than a Retributor squad. The only Retributor squad I can make that is even in the 80 point range is a 4 Heavy Bolter one. Which I think is probably the weakest one? I mean, it's not like Sisters are lacking in anti-infantry firepower right? The range is nice, but I think I'd still rather have the 4 Multi Melta one, which comes in at a minimum of something like 150 points! Or the Heavy Flamer one - but obviously that one isn't going to work out as well with the timing on Acts of Faith and transports. That 80 points is more flexible than just shooting too - it can double move a unit if needed, help them fight twice or just bring some back. Which seems by far the worst of them, but could be worth it if you are bringing back a Multi Melta carrying sister for example. That's also a circumstance where being at the start of the turn is an advantage. It can come back and still shoot.


In regards to Acts of Faith vs Orders. Comparing Acts of Faith to Orders like that misses something pretty big. Acts of Faith are extraordinarily more powerful.

Compare the two "shoot twice" Acts of Faith for example. The Order gets to shoot LASGUNS only twice. The Act of Faith lets you shoot every single weapon in the unit twice.

The reroll 1s to hit? Our commander gets that by default, no Act of Faith required. Not just the shooting phase either, can be used in combat and by multiple units instead of 1 per order.

The double move order? Requires foregoing both shooting AND charging. The Act of Faith allows both - and does not require advancing.

About the only order that is just as strong as an Act of Faith? Letting you fight in the shoot phase. Of course who gets to fight though? Orders only work on REGIMENT Infantry. Guess who isn't Regiment keyworded? Ogryn. Which leaves .... Rough Riders? Except that they can't even use their lances because it's the shooting phase and they haven't charged yet.

The orders as a whole are much, much, much weaker than the Acts of Faith. Which is fitting as they are cheaper, automatic and easier to get.

Even the start of phase thing isn't wholly a disadvantage. In addition to the bringing back a Multi Melta sister for example, you can also use it to Fight and potentially free up a unit to move and shoot unhindered. It won't be common by any stretch of the imagination outside of maybe Repentia or very whittled down units, but if you can finish them off that unit can then proceed to do whatever it wants in the next phase. Depending on how the enemy removes casualties, if they don't leave models within 1" you may be unengaged that way too. Not common but they may be trying to protect a specific model in the unit. Kill off that special weapon dude or Sgt or the last guy within 1"? Similarly, all shooting done will by definition be without the move & shoot penalty for Heavy weapons. You haven't even had a chance to move yet!

If you really want to look at things though - compare it to Psykers. Acts of Faith are actually stronger than most Psychic powers, you get one on a 2+ which is more reliable than any Psychic powers, one free with Celestine and the others on a 4+ for 40 points. Which seems fairly cheap when you look at it that way, though you don't get the full Deny the Witch that actual Psykers get. Best of all though? Acts of Faith don't have the Rule of One in matched play. You can have two units shoot twice or two units move twice in comparison to Psychic Powers - which even the ones that allow things of that nature, you can only ever attempt once per turn.

The Happy Anarchist wrote:
I still don't think that follows. At the very least, taking two for the increased odds of getting at least one extra Act of Faith. Which isn't to say that they are inherently good. I just think if you are going to take any, I would take at least 2 minimum. I don't think I would ever take more than two though because they are pricey as hell.

For the price of two imagifiers, you can get a squad of battle sisters with meltaguns, and points to spare. So yeah, they're pricy.

And unlike the imagifiers, the battle sisters are consistently useful. And if the enemy has any snipers at all, those imagifiers are going down.

I see what you're saying, but I'm slightly more optimistic:

Turn 1:
Army 2+ - Hand on Seraphim for hand flamer range/charge something you can kill
Celestine auto - Hand on herself for first turn charge
Imagifier 4+ - Guidance or Martyr on Rets (admittedly much more useful if you're going second, but remember some of the new deployment types are only 18" no-mans land now)
Imagifier 4+ - Guidance or Martyr on Rets (admittedly much more useful if you're going second, but remember some of the new deployment types are only 18" no-mans land now)

Turn 2:
Army 2+ - Guidance on Seraphim or Hand to reposition
Celestine auto - Passion on self if still in combat, Hand on self to re-position, or Martyr on self if wounded and already well positioned to charge again
Imagifier 4+ - Guidance or Martyr on Rets (spend a CP to reroll if well positioned to do damage)
Imagifier 4+ - Guidance or Martyr on Rets(spend a CP to reroll if well positioned to do damage)

Turn 3:
Army 2+ - Guidance on any Dominions still alive who disembarked last turn, or Seraphim as last turn
Celestine auto - Guidance on any nearby Dominions still alive who disembarked last turn, Passion on self if still in combat, Hand on self to re-position, or Martyr on self if wounded and already well positioned to charge again
Imagifier 4+ - Guidance or Martyr on Rets (spend a CP to reroll if well positioned to do damage)
Imagifier 4+ - Guidance or Martyr on Rets(spend a CP to reroll if well positioned to do damage)

etc.

Totally agree though that they should be activated at the start of each relevant phase. Start of the turn does really not synergise at all with transports, which is just such a shame for a highly mechanised army.

One cool thing about this though is that actions that occur outside of phases (like Acts of Faith) don't have the single command re-roll per phase limitation (in Matched play). So if you really want to burn through all your CP, you can reroll literally any number of dice you can afford to while resolving the act of faith, as it occurs out of phase.

Or you could instead get an additional melta squad and, instead of only maybe having a benefit only half the time, have a benefit all the time.

This edition's acts of faith are even more random than 3rd's, and if I wanted to play random armies I'd go play Orks-- whose army-wide ability, oddly enough, is more consistent than this.

Rubenite wrote:I see what you're saying, but I'm slightly more optimistic:

Turn 1:
Army 2+ - Hand on Seraphim for hand flamer range/charge something you can kill
Celestine auto - Hand on herself for first turn charge
Imagifier 4+ - Guidance or Martyr on Rets (admittedly much more useful if you're going second, but remember some of the new deployment types are only 18" no-mans land now)
Imagifier 4+ - Guidance or Martyr on Rets (admittedly much more useful if you're going second, but remember some of the new deployment types are only 18" no-mans land now)

Turn 2:
Army 2+ - Guidance on Seraphim or Hand to reposition
Celestine auto - Passion on self if still in combat, Hand on self to re-position, or Martyr on self if wounded and already well positioned to charge again
Imagifier 4+ - Guidance or Martyr on Rets (spend a CP to reroll if well positioned to do damage)
Imagifier 4+ - Guidance or Martyr on Rets(spend a CP to reroll if well positioned to do damage)

Turn 3:
Army 2+ - Guidance on any Dominions still alive who disembarked last turn, or Seraphim as last turn
Celestine auto - Guidance on any nearby Dominions still alive who disembarked last turn, Passion on self if still in combat, Hand on self to re-position, or Martyr on self if wounded and already well positioned to charge again
Imagifier 4+ - Guidance or Martyr on Rets (spend a CP to reroll if well positioned to do damage)
Imagifier 4+ - Guidance or Martyr on Rets(spend a CP to reroll if well positioned to do damage)

etc.

Totally agree though that they should be activated at the start of each relevant phase. Start of the turn does really not synergise at all with transports, which is just such a shame for a highly mechanised army.

One cool thing about this though is that actions that occur outside of phases (like Acts of Faith) don't have the single command re-roll per phase limitation (in Matched play). So if you really want to burn through all your CP, you can reroll literally any number of dice you can afford to while resolving the act of faith, as it occurs out of phase.

Celestine and your 1 free shot works if you only have 4 units. But let's scale that up to 2000 or 2500 points.

We've got more than 1 Seraphim squad now who absolutely need Act of Faith support, and if Celestine jumps ahead with just one squad in tow, they're going to get gunned down because they're all alone versus 2500 points of gunline. Dominions won't ever get any, which form the bulk of my mechanized and antitank force, limiting their options rather drastically. Rets are the only units that might benefit from Acts, and again, having 8 Rets with Heavy Bolters is tougher and have more firepower than having 4 Rets and 2 Imagifiers.

The Happy Anarchist wrote:Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And Imagifiers are very expensive - though they are also some of the cheaper elite options. Priest is still probably better. Maybe?

Though 80 points is still a lot less than a Retributor squad. The only Retributor squad I can make that is even in the 80 point range is a 4 Heavy Bolter one. Which I think is probably the weakest one? I mean, it's not like Sisters are lacking in anti-infantry firepower right? The range is nice, but I think I'd still rather have the 4 Multi Melta one, which comes in at a minimum of something like 150 points! Or the Heavy Flamer one - but obviously that one isn't going to work out as well with the timing on Acts of Faith and transports. That 80 points is more flexible than just shooting too - it can double move a unit if needed, help them fight twice or just bring some back. Which seems by far the worst of them, but could be worth it if you are bringing back a Multi Melta carrying sister for example. That's also a circumstance where being at the start of the turn is an advantage. It can come back and still shoot.


In regards to Acts of Faith vs Orders. Comparing Acts of Faith to Orders like that misses something pretty big. Acts of Faith are extraordinarily more powerful.

Compare the two "shoot twice" Acts of Faith for example. The Order gets to shoot LASGUNS only twice. The Act of Faith lets you shoot every single weapon in the unit twice.

The reroll 1s to hit? Our commander gets that by default, no Act of Faith required. Not just the shooting phase either, can be used in combat and by multiple units instead of 1 per order.

The double move order? Requires foregoing both shooting AND charging. The Act of Faith allows both - and does not require advancing.

About the only order that is just as strong as an Act of Faith? Letting you fight in the shoot phase. Of course who gets to fight though? Orders only work on REGIMENT Infantry. Guess who isn't Regiment keyworded? Ogryn. Which leaves .... Rough Riders? Except that they can't even use their lances because it's the shooting phase and they haven't charged yet.

The orders as a whole are much, much, much weaker than the Acts of Faith. Which is fitting as they are cheaper, automatic and easier to get.

Even the start of phase thing isn't wholly a disadvantage. In addition to the bringing back a Multi Melta sister for example, you can also use it to Fight and potentially free up a unit to move and shoot unhindered. It won't be common by any stretch of the imagination outside of maybe Repentia or very whittled down units, but if you can finish them off that unit can then proceed to do whatever it wants in the next phase. Depending on how the enemy removes casualties, if they don't leave models within 1" you may be unengaged that way too. Not common but they may be trying to protect a specific model in the unit. Kill off that special weapon dude or Sgt or the last guy within 1"? Similarly, all shooting done will by definition be without the move & shoot penalty for Heavy weapons. You haven't even had a chance to move yet!

If you really want to look at things though - compare it to Psykers. Acts of Faith are actually stronger than most Psychic powers, you get one on a 2+ which is more reliable than any Psychic powers, one free with Celestine and the others on a 4+ for 40 points. Which seems fairly cheap when you look at it that way, though you don't get the full Deny the Witch that actual Psykers get. Best of all though? Acts of Faith don't have the Rule of One in matched play. You can have two units shoot twice or two units move twice in comparison to Psychic Powers - which even the ones that allow things of that nature, you can only ever attempt once per turn.

First Rank, FIRE! Second Rank, FIRE! is comparatively superior to Divine Guidance in all but one scenario: you're attacking a tank, and you were close enough to engage it last turn. In all other cases, the Order is actually better for the Guardsmen than the Act is for the Sisters, because the Guardsmen get to move first, and can therefore get into Rapid-Fire range. This is doubly bad for Guidance, because the Sisters don't get Plasma, and have a very high likelihood of being out of Meltagun range, meaning that Guidance loses the only potential advantage over First Rank, FIRE!

Move, Move, Move! is worse than Hand of the Emperor, but remember, Forwards, for the Emperor!/Fire and Advance! is a thing, which is worse by approximately 2" of movement. Sort of, because using Hand automatically places the target unit beyond range of future Act support, while the Orders don't do the same for Guardsmen.

The Passion is next to useless, since it only triggers if the unit survived the last two rounds of combat, and is still in combat. Seraphim use Divine Guidance instead, because they have pistols, and Repentia can count themselves lucky if they're still locked in combat and there's enough of them left be considered a unit after 2 consecutive combat rounds. Of course, that assumes you can get your Acts of Faith to the Seraphim and Repentia. Assuming you move the Seraphim normally, or Hand them first turn, they'll be well beyond reach of Imagifiers until turn 4.

We do have Martyr, which there's no Order for, but that's it, and it's not very effective. It adds one extra gun to the squad and one extra wound to the squad. If the squad has more than 2 models, then it's contributing less firepower than using Guidance or Passion. If the squad has less than 2 models, then it's a write off, and adding one additional model doesn't do a whole lot, because the one Sister does precisely as good a job of soaking gunfire as two Sisters.

Manifesting Acts before Movement means that you can't transport Imagifiers forward, but you can transport Platoon Commanders and Company Commanders. That's big, because it means that Order support can keep pace with a footguard or mechguard army, while Act support can only hope to keep pace with sisters on foot. And, of course, because Orders have a longer operational range, Move, Move, Move! or Forwards, for the Emperor doesn't shunt your Guardsmen out of support range.

And, of course, for the same price as one 50/50 shot at an Act of Faith, the my ImpyGuard gets more wounds, a 4+ save, an extra go, and Deep Strike for 40 points. And, of course, you can drop in the Stormtrooper Captain and use his two Orders right away on top of the unit that needed the Orders.


Also, IMO, 4 HB Retributors is the best Retributor loadout. Dominions do Melta better.


Don't get me wrong, I'm excited for 8e, and looking forward to playing both my Sisters and my Guardsmen, but I feel that difference between Acts and Orders shows that there was considerably more effort spent on the Guard.

I'm also disappointed in being Imperial Agents. Seriously, the Legion of the Damned got mentioned on the title, but they couldn't write Sisters of Battle on ours. It's a matter of principle. I've been annoyed that the Stormtroopers can get their own hardback book, and Skitarii and Mechanicum have two separate hardback books, when we have more units than any two of them combined!

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
I'm also disappointed in being Imperial Agents. Seriously, the Legion of the Damned got mentioned on the title, but they couldn't write Sisters of Battle on ours. It's a matter of principle. I've been annoyed that the Stormtroopers can get their own hardback book, and Skitarii and Mechanicum have two separate hardback books, when we have more units than any two of them combined!

I fully agree with all of this...

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Retributors are going to be within gun range and can receive Guidance every turn. However, at the price required to give 75% chance of firing twice, you could also buy another squad of Retributors and have a 100% chance of firing twice, and have superior staying power.

Having 2 imagifer in a position where they can only benefit 1 retributor unit is a waste. If you can put two retributor units together and have two imagifer in range of both that's the best, but if you can't then still don't get more than one imagifer, else you have a HUGE case of diminishing results.

Oh wow. Just reread the rule on Heavy weapons.

If the model moved IN ITS PRECEDING MOVEMENT PHASE, -1 to hit.

If you use an Act of Faith to move a foot slogging squad of Retributors, it does not count as moving for Heavy Weapons. Kind of a neat benefit there.

Time for some wild speculation on the Repressor.

Here is the second page of contents from the upcoming 'IMPERIAL ARMOUR – INDEX: FORCES OF THE ADEPTUS ASTARTES' book from FW which we know from the first page contains the Sororitas Repressor.



Someone pointed out that there's a dedicated points section listed for Sisters of Battle Melee weapons. If the Repressor is the only SoB unit in the book, why would this section exist?

I theorise that the Dozer Blade on the Repressor is going to get a melee weapon profile, much like the Goliath Rockgrinder now has a 'Drilldozer Blade' melee weapon and the Battlewagon has the Deff Rolla melee weapon. It is pretty mean looking after all:



If this is true we can probably expect WS5+. I really hope they do this! I converted my own super beefy Repressors with huge dozer blades, I'd absolutely love to be able to smash them into some Heretics.

Any word on the Avenger Strike Fighter?

 captain bloody fists wrote:
Any word on the Avenger Strike Fighter?

I think I saw it in the Forgeworld Index for the Imperial Guard? But I'm pretty sure any Imperial flier can be taken by any Imperial army in the Fliers slot.

I haven't seen any of the FW stuff yet and i use my Avenger a bit

The Happy Anarchist wrote:
Oh wow. Just reread the rule on Heavy weapons.

If the model moved IN ITS PRECEDING MOVEMENT PHASE, -1 to hit.

If you use an Act of Faith to move a foot slogging squad of Retributors, it does not count as moving for Heavy Weapons. Kind of a neat benefit there.

Oh now that's nice. AoF seem to really give the sisters mobility, which (with the range of their weapons) has always been a bit of an issue.