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Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Hovering Squid World 97A

 supreme overlord wrote:
$570 for a moderately painted miniature (judging from the gallery I saw) is absolutely a waste. you can find better commission artist to paint it for much cheaper.
No you can't.

 d-usa wrote:
"When the Internet sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending posters that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing strawmen. They're bringing spam. They're trolls. And some, I assume, are good people."
 
   
Made in us
Freaky Flayed One





Michigan

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
 supreme overlord wrote:
$570 for a moderately painted miniature (judging from the gallery I saw) is absolutely a waste. you can find better commission artist to paint it for much cheaper.
No you can't.


yes you can. I have several in my home town that wouldve painted the same model for $200 or less easily above the standard of OP. Granted they also have full time jobs so this is just a HOBBY for side cash.

LOOK AT YOUR FLGS for painters before dishing out $570 for a single model to some guy you've never met online. Build rapport and get to know the person and their work. I guarantee you'll get a better price and better work then what you'll see here.

If money is no object and throwing around hundreds of dollars is childs play then pay for a commission artist to get your model done in 2-3 weeks. nothing wrong with that, just saying there are cheaper routes for easily just as good of a paint job.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/09 22:46:13


Necrons - 6000+
Eldar/DE/Harlequins- 6000+
Genestealer Cult - 2000
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Shangri-LA

 supreme overlord wrote:
$570 for a moderately painted miniature (judging from the gallery I saw) is absolutely a waste. you can find better commission artist to paint it for much cheaper.

I stated that the army was above table top standard AND was completed by a more reputable company... your comparison doesn't work. a better one would be: you can buy a steak from a steak house for $70 or buy the same steak from Walmart for $20... it's the same steak except one is cheaper.


BTP is not a reputable company. Do a cursory search on here about Blue Table Painting and you will see that they have problems. Many problems. One of them being they put out shoddy work at high prices. You really couldn't have picked a worse example than BTP.

And let's not forget you compared a $3000/3000 point painted army to a single painted model at $570. That is exactly Taco Bell vs. a steak house scenario. It is no different than looking at the receipt of a nice steak house dinner and saying, "Gee whiz! I coulda gotten 200 tacos for the price you paid for one meal!"

 supreme overlord wrote:
no, when including time to create textiles and overhead I am taking the cheaper route, same with brushes and paint.... not the same with painting minis


So short sighted. The savings are in the long term.


   
Made in us
Freaky Flayed One





Michigan

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
 supreme overlord wrote:
$570 for a moderately painted miniature (judging from the gallery I saw) is absolutely a waste. you can find better commission artist to paint it for much cheaper.

I stated that the army was above table top standard AND was completed by a more reputable company... your comparison doesn't work. a better one would be: you can buy a steak from a steak house for $70 or buy the same steak from Walmart for $20... it's the same steak except one is cheaper.


BTP is not a reputable company. Do a cursory search on here about Blue Table Painting and you will see that they have problems. Many problems. One of them being they put out shoddy work at high prices. You really couldn't have picked a worse example than BTP.

And let's not forget you compared a $3000/3000 point painted army to a single painted model at $570. That is exactly Taco Bell vs. a steak house scenario. It is no different than looking at the receipt of a nice steak house dinner and saying, "Gee whiz! I coulda gotten 200 tacos for the price you paid for one meal!"

 supreme overlord wrote:
no, when including time to create textiles and overhead I am taking the cheaper route, same with brushes and paint.... not the same with painting minis


So short sighted. The savings are in the long term.



When both scenarios given are painted to the same quality it is comparing the same thing... I cant believe I'm having to explain this again. I'm comparing two ABOVE TT QUALITY paint jobs. one that included building, magnetizing, large models, and a carrying case... the other is just for one model. I think it's fairly clear what the better deal is.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/09 22:49:10


Necrons - 6000+
Eldar/DE/Harlequins- 6000+
Genestealer Cult - 2000
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Hovering Squid World 97A

 supreme overlord wrote:
 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
 supreme overlord wrote:
$570 for a moderately painted miniature (judging from the gallery I saw) is absolutely a waste. you can find better commission artist to paint it for much cheaper.
No you can't.


yes you can. I have several in my home town that wouldve painted the same model for $200 or less easily above the standard of OP. Granted they also have full time jobs so this is just a HOBBY for side cash.

LOOK AT YOUR FLGS for painters before dishing out $570 for a single model to some guy you've never met online. Build rapport and get to know the person and their work. I guarantee you'll get a better price and better work then what you'll see here.

If money is no object and throwing around hundreds of dollars is childs play then pay for a commission artist to get your model done in 2-3 weeks. nothing wrong with that, just saying there are cheaper routes for easily just as good of a paint job.
You don't know what you're talking about so you should probably stop.

 d-usa wrote:
"When the Internet sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending posters that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing strawmen. They're bringing spam. They're trolls. And some, I assume, are good people."
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Shangri-LA

 supreme overlord wrote:

When both scenarios given are painted to the same quality it is comparing the same thing... I cant believe I'm having to explain this again. I'm comparing two ABOVE TT QUALITY paint jobs. one that included building, magnetizing, large models, and a carrying case... the other is just for one model. I think it's fairly clear what the better deal is.


Let's see this mythical SM army. We've seen the $570 Warlord titan. Post a link. Please. It would probably help your argument because "ABOVE TT QUALITY" means nothing without pictures. One person's table top quality is another person's display quality, so pics or this army didn't happen.






   
Made in us
Freaky Flayed One





Michigan

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
 supreme overlord wrote:
 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
 supreme overlord wrote:
$570 for a moderately painted miniature (judging from the gallery I saw) is absolutely a waste. you can find better commission artist to paint it for much cheaper.
No you can't.


yes you can. I have several in my home town that wouldve painted the same model for $200 or less easily above the standard of OP. Granted they also have full time jobs so this is just a HOBBY for side cash.

LOOK AT YOUR FLGS for painters before dishing out $570 for a single model to some guy you've never met online. Build rapport and get to know the person and their work. I guarantee you'll get a better price and better work then what you'll see here.

If money is no object and throwing around hundreds of dollars is childs play then pay for a commission artist to get your model done in 2-3 weeks. nothing wrong with that, just saying there are cheaper routes for easily just as good of a paint job.
You don't know what you're talking about so you should probably stop.


I do... I've Talked to these people you know, In real life... weird concept I know.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
 supreme overlord wrote:

When both scenarios given are painted to the same quality it is comparing the same thing... I cant believe I'm having to explain this again. I'm comparing two ABOVE TT QUALITY paint jobs. one that included building, magnetizing, large models, and a carrying case... the other is just for one model. I think it's fairly clear what the better deal is.


Let's see this mythical SM army. We've seen the $570 Warlord titan. Post a link. Please. It would probably help your argument because "ABOVE TT QUALITY" means nothing without pictures. One person's table top quality is another person's display quality, so pics or this army didn't happen.




Yes, let me spend my time scouring the web for a 3yr old project to prove a point to some [MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius] or he wont believe me... yeaaaaa..... I dont care that much. Believe what you wish.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/06/09 23:26:21


Necrons - 6000+
Eldar/DE/Harlequins- 6000+
Genestealer Cult - 2000
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Shangri-LA

 supreme overlord wrote:
Yes, let me spend my time scouring the web for a 3yr old project to prove a point to some neckbeard on dakka or he wont believe me... yeaaaaa..... I dont care that much. Believe what you wish.


And thus completes the trolling circle.

Outrageous claims made, no evidence provided to back up said claims, and then personal attacks.

2/10, thanks for the attempt.

   
Made in us
[MOD]
Mallax Untain






Svalarheima, MA

RULE #1 is ABSOLUTELY MANDATORY as a condition of posting here.

Nil nos tremefacit.
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Nottingham, UK

I'll bet my 25 years experience against a couple of hours YouTube tutorials any day of the week. Settle down, keyboard warriors, you pays your money and you takes your choice.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/09 23:35:07


 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
per aspera ad inferos






^ this. I remember you posting an exasperated thread a while back about your rates being criticized, this was before I had taken up full time commission painting. Now having lived it, I can relate more and more and once Im at your rate level in 20 years Id like to think that skilled labor is just that, and people will still understand that painting miniatures for a living is a labor intensive endeavor that requires a huge amount of commitment, confidence and the ability to say no.

   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Nottingham, UK

I'm always very much an advocate for commission folks charging appropriately - what gives the industry a bad name is primarily the unreliability and corner-cutting that comes from underquoting jobs.

Whilst I enjoy painting and find it rewarding at a personal level, it's the financial side of it that helps to clothe and feed my kids.

 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
per aspera ad inferos






Right. Theres a zen. Thats why I feel for the painters charging such low rates.

By no means am I the greatest painter out there, but I can consistently produce a product that draws in clients, which has ensured full bookings and that my kid is paid for. After 6 years in the navy, being able to stay at home and work is awesome, but if the price wasnt right then I'd be irresponsible to charge some of the rates being thrown around.

There will ALWAYS be a poster/guy who says 'Well I know a Golden demon painter that charges 5 dollars a model, these commission painters are ripping you off!'

   
Made in us
Guarded Grey Knight Terminator





Looking for the Rest of the II Legion

Fair points guys, I'll think twice before going so hard on commissioned painters in the future. I think that its fair to say that everyone does have different standards of what they're okay with putting on a table or in a display case, and for me that doesn't necessitate the use of painting services. But there's no issue with charging appropriately for a job well done. I've enjoyed hearing everyone's opinions on here.

"My friend, you would not tell with such high zest, to children ardent for some desperate glory the old lie, Dulce et Decorum Est Pro Patria Mori."
Grey Knights ~ 3500, Fully Painted =][= Space Wolves ~ 4000, Fully Painted =][= Prosperine Exiles ~ WIP =][= Sons of Altia ~ WIP
 
   
Made in us
Thermo-Optical Tuareg






Nashville, TN

God, I I had a dollar for every idiot that came along and said they would have painted it cheaper to one of my clients back when I was full time commissioning I'd have....lotsa money!

"Holy Sh*&, you've opened my eyes and changed my mind about this topic, thanks Dakka OT!"

-Nobody Ever

Proverbs 18:2

"CHEESE!" is the battlecry of the ill-prepared.

 warboss wrote:

GW didn't mean to hit your wallet and I know they love you, baby. I'm sure they won't do it again so it's ok to purchase and make up.


Albatross wrote:I think SlaveToDorkness just became my new hero.

EmilCrane wrote:Finecast is the new Matt Ward.

Don't mess with the Blade and Bolter! 
   
Made in us
Daring Dark Eldar Raider Rider





Leavenworth, KS

I think another takeaway here is communication. Communicate with your customers, and communicate with those you are paying to perform a service. I'd much rather spend $1000 on that model's paint job and have great communication on how the project is going along the way.

"Death is my meat, terror my wine." - Unknown Dark Eldar Archon 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
per aspera ad inferos






^ That. I am constantly either emailing or txting clients on whatever development I have. It doesnt add that much to the project time but it certainly adds a lot to customer experience reviews.

   
Made in au
Wicked Canoptek Wraith




Canberra

The model in the original post appears to be on par for the level of work I have seen on commissioned sites: size/detail vs price paid.

I am always amazed at the talent of a lot of commission artists out there. I am always working to improve my skills and have improved a lot however I know I will never be close to some of the incredible work I have witnessed on the web. Some people are just naturally talented artists.

I find painting relaxing myself but I am super slow. I plan to get some commissioned mini's at some point when I find the right mini's that are special enough. Kingdom Death might be those models once they arrive but will need to see how much I play the game first (hopefully a lot).

One point I would like to make regarding commissioned painters is the time spent vs money earned. Some people if they break it down to their time spent painting a miniature are actually losing money if they paint it themselves (because of what they earn per hour). If they like beautifully painted miniatures however cannot or have no interest in painting the models themselves then they have a great alternative. If they find painting a chore they are better off spending that extra time in their profession and channelling that money into someones skillful hands.

Some people cannot paint miniatures due to injury or other limiting factor however enjoy nicely painted miniatures. In the end I am sure there are numerous reasons why people would want to commission a painter.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Nottingham, UK

Indeed.

I know *how* to do most work and diagnose many faults on my car. But I have neither the tools, nor the experience to do it efficiently, or necessarily well.

So for most things I take it to a trusted mechanic. He charges fairly, makes his money and does quality work.

For what it's worth, I think most of my non-commercial clients similarly can and do paint for themselves, but are either looking for a higher end job with some hints on how to achieve it themselves on some pieces, or just want something special doing for a particular unit or gang.



 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Hovering Squid World 97A

winterdyne wrote:
For what it's worth, I think most of my non-commercial clients similarly can and do paint for themselves, but are either looking for a higher end job with some hints on how to achieve it themselves on some pieces, or just want something special doing for a particular unit or gang.
I have one repeat client, who is basically my patron now, who can definitely paint just fine but has no time because of work commitments. He also likes my work better than his own so he's perfectly happy to just keep paying me to paint stuff for him.

 d-usa wrote:
"When the Internet sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending posters that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing strawmen. They're bringing spam. They're trolls. And some, I assume, are good people."
 
   
Made in us
Committed Chaos Cult Marine





Eye of Terror

From what I have seen of other commission painters work, that's an acceptable level of quality for the price, given the complexity of the model. The timeline is way too long, but maybe not a reason for outrage.

The main concerns I have with the paint scheme are around shadows and highlights. It's a complicated model and there would be lots of crevaces that need to be filled someway. Also, the exhaust pipes on the back, they look out of place. I think a touchup by another artist would go wonders.

That said... if I saw this on a tabletop, I would think it's a good job. If someone showed this to me as a display piece, I would ask how much it cost.

   
Made in us
Powerful Pegasus Knight






winterdyne wrote:
I paint as a full time job. Damn sight better than BTP, too.


You're a swell guy Winterdyne - love your work

Onto the topic:

I was recently 3 weeks late for a commission and it involved a client attending an out of country tournament. It was a $400 job with 40 models plus two heavily converted colossals due within a 5-6 week time. I handed in 80% of the project last month with the intent to finish it out later that week. I moved to a new city and had my supplies in at my SO's storage (my legitimate excuse) - One of the ten man squads he needed for his tournament list was not completed before the event.

I waived $200 at the tardiness. which was 50% of the project cost and easily 20-30 hours of work.

I've had tow other issues and I general refund or overpay the client. This is out of 60 completed 2000+ Point WH Armies or 100+ point Warmachine Lists projects over 7 years.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/13 13:56:10




 
   
Made in fi
Longtime Dakkanaut





 supreme overlord wrote:

I do not understand how commission studios charging $570 for one model this size retain business. this isnt a full time job, IT'S A HOBBY


Ummit IS job for the commission painter. You charge like 3 dollar hour for your work?

”Buddhism doesn't tell you what is false and what is true but it encourages you to find out for yourself.” ~ Chogyam Trungpa ~ 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






winterdyne wrote:
Indeed.

I know *how* to do most work and diagnose many faults on my car. But I have neither the tools, nor the experience to do it efficiently, or necessarily well.

So for most things I take it to a trusted mechanic. He charges fairly, makes his money and does quality work.

For what it's worth, I think most of my non-commercial clients similarly can and do paint for themselves, but are either looking for a higher end job with some hints on how to achieve it themselves on some pieces, or just want something special doing for a particular unit or gang.




The "getting someone else to paint your models is cheating attitude seems to be confined to fantasy and SF games, from what I can see. In the historical community*, it seems to me that there's a) a strong preference for only using painted miniatures and b) no problem about paying someone else to do them. Mind you, the quality expectations are often much lower too; if you're fielding a thousand French Grande Armée models on an 8' table, who cares that the eyes aren't painted?


*not that there's any such thing; there's lots of communities of people who play historical games, but describing them as a single community is probably a stretch.
   
Made in gb
Hardened Veteran Guardsman





Really stupid to suggest that people are 'wasting' their money by paying commission artists to paint their minis.

One of the most important aspects of human society is the division of labour, without it we would all be in a state of penury.

I love to paint and love improving. However I know in the future i will have increasing pressures on my time, rather than exit the hobby or take 5 years to paint 1000 points, I would definitely pay a commission artist.

Some random thoughts about this thread (in no particular order)

-OP i think the paint job is fair value for the money paid. Shame about the timeframe but it seems you were kept informed (unlike some studios which can just go on radio silence)
-You pay peanuts you get monkeys
-Winterdyne your stuff is fantastic, and should I need a commission in the future you would be high on my list.
-I see BTP have been mentioned a few times on the thread, and the OP even worked for them? I have seen really bad things about BTP on dakka, including very low pay to artists and low quality. But as I live in the UK I have never come across people that have used them.
-Great conversion OP
-Your warlord titan looks great (i think i even commented on it at the time). However I would be really interested as to the hours spent by your artist. I suspect he did it for the love of painting rather than for his sustenance.
-OP if you are willing to pay $2000 odd bucks for a piece of resin from GW, surely you would be willing to pay the same again for someone to paint it to a standard worthy of the model cost?

This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2017/06/14 12:41:48


 
   
Made in us
Master Engineer with a Brace of Pistols





Houston, TX

Comparing artists like winterdyne to "services" like BTP is apples and oranges. BTP gives a rough, tabletop ready job, at best. Just as you wouldn't expect to pay the same rate for the paint level of a prepainted mini and a crystal brush winner, it is unrealistic to expect to get high end painting without paying adequately. Sure, there are hobby folk who can do a solid job for a low price, but they are scattered and usually just working with friends. It's like amateur mechanics- you might get lucky, but you will probably end up with something worth about what you paid for.

The OP looks like he got reasonable paint for the pay (though the demonette looks really rough) with extremely poor service and slow completion time.

-James
 
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Sentient OverBear






Clearwater, FL

Winterdyne painted the Maelstrom's Edge studio miniatures.

I'm convinced that he's 5 inches tall to be able to paint that kind of detail.

DQ:70S++G+++M+B++I+Pw40k94+ID+++A++/sWD178R+++T(I)DM+++

Chance favors only the prepared mind.                                                                                                       Rule #1
- Paraphrased from Louis Pasteur

 
   
Made in gb
Guardsman with Flashlight





Can....can we just get back to the meatloaf? hahaha

2000pts - Celestial Lions WIP
5000pts - Eldar WIP
2000pts - Astra Militarum 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Best bush pilot in the Outer Rim





Bathing in elitist French expats fumes

...Which is exactly what I am doing right now...

That warlord looks good. I think the OP project was okay, nothing fantastic, but on par with a painter doing it as a part-time hobby and having a bit of talent, no more.

Some kid from California wanted me to paint him an x-wing ship, and I told him I was doing this for fun, and really at odd hours. He expected an update pic morning and night. I just refunded his money, in the end. Then his mom called me (long distance) to apologize and get me to ship the thing.

There's a balcony to have a brewski on the back of that Warloard! I never noticed!

Man I hadn't heard Meatloaf in a while.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/15 02:39:39


 GamesWorkshop wrote:
And I would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for you meddling kids!

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/503887.page (My humble P&M thread that I'll sometimes update, here on Dakka.) 
   
Made in au
Courageous Space Marine Captain





Melbourne .au

winterdyne wrote:
I'll bet my 25 years experience against a couple of hours YouTube tutorials any day of the week. Settle down, keyboard warriors, you pays your money and you takes your choice.


Yeah. Taking into account Rule #1, that's an absolutely insane claim. The OP's $600 Warlord is actually really nice. It's a far simpler paint job than both of Zach's, but it certainly stand up as a lovely piece of work, and again, taking into account #1, anyone who thinks that level can come about from a couple of hours of YouTube tutes has absolutely no idea what they're talking about. Let alone Zach's stuff or what I know Winter is capable of.

Painting is a hobby for a lot of people, but the perspective to understand is from the painter - Painting your models for you isn't my hobby. Anyone doing it as a job or professionally should be paid accordingly.


OP, taking into account different communities and all that, I think $120 for that paintjob is honestly pretty reasonable. Back when I painted for money, I'd have asked a lot more for that. I agree the Daemonette is weak, though. Also, sweet conversion!

   
 
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