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froper98 wrote:
How do people feel about having a detachment of Drukari/dark elder as help.

Would also like to know about this, loved drukhari and harli models for a long time and finally close to building my big ol pile.

Do incubi in a venom add anything that harpies don't already have? I like the idea of a CC heavy army and incubi look amazing.

Scourges are an obvious choice, adding the shooting punch from range that isn't commonplace in harlies. Please tell me mandrakes are good!

I don't think CC units like incubi are what harlequins could need. I think more something like Dark Reapers for long range fire that our army really lacks. Or ravagers. Things like that.

In the games I've played I've had four troupes, run in two groups side by side. In each of those groups there is a troupe master and a shadowseer, giving each squad the reroll failed to wound ability from the troupe master AND the -1 to be wounded from the shadowseer. Taken together those buffs really make the troupes very hard hitting and durable.

I eventually want to run four troupes of five in four starweavers, each with either a troupe master or shadowseer. These will have a good mix of fusion pistols and embraces or caresses. They are the hard hitting shock troops.

Following behind them will be a larger troupe, armed with basic pistols and close combat weapons, on foot. They will be aided by another troupe master and shadowseer, and they will be meant for volume of attacks; to take out hordes of troops in a second wave attack.

So far the harlequins seems to work well. I look forward to hearing c&c, as well as other people's thoughts on how they play.

On paper I was optimistic too about Troupe's resilience. But I've faced the tough reality in the form of ork mobs of 30. That is what you can't afford to charge into. They don't care about second waves and only cost a 180ish of points. Furthermore, there are always a second and third unit of those.
Troupes are like a surgeon's scalpel, as well as our whole army too. It can take down any target, but it needs some shooting to thin out targets like ork mobz and genestealers.

For Troupes I found invaluable the Starweavers. They can bring them where they need to be faster than on foot, provide shooting, can charge targets first to soak up overwatch or nearby units to prevent countercharging or the fall back-shooting manoeuvre.
I wouldn't field Harlequins on foot in this edition, not even in larger groups.


Another point I'm reflecting on is how games are won in this edition. In 40% of the games I played or watched, all was decided on turn 1, for a macroscopical error fo one player, or a well executed alpha strike. A total of 80% of them was over by turn 3, one or both armies were token apart and still the winner was clear. This is the point: we can win by alpha strike but once our opponent knows that trick they will not allow us to do it anymore, so we must find an alternate win condition. I don't believe we can win a mid-game attrition war. So I was thinking about planning carefully for late game and even make use of the last turn (if we have it) to clear objectives and take them. But I need practice on this.

Played a couple of games with Harlequins as a big part of my Dark Eldar army. Once painted, I plan to go full Harlequins (been playing DE for so long).

Tried troupes on foot. They just vaporise before reaching combat. Even with buffs and bonuses, anything that gets a shot on them kills them dead.
Finished my first Starweaver but alas it was shot out of the sky turn one, and the troupe inside of it one second later.
I do believe that a serious number of troupes in Starweavers, with more dedication to 'getting in there' is the way to go.
I don't see any point to Troupes on foot. Tried that a couple of games but they were mostly useless all game.

Jester has been absolutely useless. Has done very, very little damage (maybe one or two wounds on infantry units, I played vs Marines and Necrons mostly) even though he survived all games. His cutesy morale ability was useless every time. Sniper was pointless as fishing for 6's is not a good strategy. Up to now I've just used him to soak overwatch before a decent units charges because he's got 5 wounds and a decent save lol. I'm not sure what Jester is trying to accomplish, but he's not doing a decent job so far.

Solitaire has been a beast so far. Today he killed Ahriman, a Hellbrute, and a whole squad of Rubric Marines in one game. Coolest thing was, Ahriman was actually on the other side of the table, but after the Blitz the Solster was right next to him. Wowza. Probably MVP for me (along with Ravagers, but that's another story). Last game the Solitaire killed a librarian and some honor guard. He's made back his points every game - at least.

Shadowseer feels.. I don't know, I feel kind of awkward with him. The minus to hit psychic power is limited in range. The movement bonus power is awkward - maybe it's because I haven't painted any jetbikes yet, seems best for those - because he has to stay close to the unit to cast it, but also to be effective, but once cast, the troupe is gone and the buff the Seer gives is gone as well (as they leave the bubble) or he's not around to join in on the charge.
I feel like there's way more potential in these powers than I am seeing or accomplishing right now. His minus to wound bubble has been awesome though.

Troupe Master looks cool on paper, but haven't been able to really use him because I've had trouble getting harlequins into combat.

I also feel like the army - mind you I haven't really played any Voidweavers yet, but - is light on heavy weaponry. I won all the games I played but it was mostly thanks to the Drukhari Dakka I brought along with the Clowns.

Some totally awesome things I love about harlequin:
I love how they just ignore all terrain. Just flat out ignore. It feels like a 90's shooter /noclip cheat mode. I particularly love charging through a wall to ignore overwatch.
Ignoring intervening models is cool to. You get to charge whatever you want. This has made the Solitaire so, so effective and scary. He basically teleports to right next to the opposing squishy. Awesome.
Invulnerable saves all around the board is awesome. I don't necessarily like them because I roll so many of them, but they totally speed up the game. I just roll four ups, don't care about rend
Fusion Pistols. Haven't tried them yet, but going to. I love how 8th edition has me trying all these new guns instead of always going stock because almost every upgrade is useless.

So yeah, I'll be painting more harlequins but I as I love a TAC kind of list, I doubt harlequins have all the tools to be flexible all around.

 Mayk0l wrote:
Played a couple of games with Harlequins as a big part of my Dark Eldar army. Once painted, I plan to go full Harlequins (been playing DE for so long).

Tried troupes on foot. They just vaporise before reaching combat. Even with buffs and bonuses, anything that gets a shot on them kills them dead.
Finished my first Starweaver but alas it was shot out of the sky turn one, and the troupe inside of it one second later.
I do believe that a serious number of troupes in Starweavers, with more dedication to 'getting in there' is the way to go.
I don't see any point to Troupes on foot. Tried that a couple of games but they were mostly useless all game.

100% agree. I tried in my first 8th edition 500pts game harleys on foot and it was clear they need a Starweaver to move. Never fielded them without one, since then,

 Mayk0l wrote:
Jester has been absolutely useless. Has done very, very little damage (maybe one or two wounds on infantry units, I played vs Marines and Necrons mostly) even though he survived all games. His cutesy morale ability was useless every time. Sniper was pointless as fishing for 6's is not a good strategy. Up to now I've just used him to soak overwatch before a decent units charges because he's got 5 wounds and a decent save lol. I'm not sure what Jester is trying to accomplish, but he's not doing a decent job so far.

Again, I agree. I didn't even try him out because it was clear on paper that for 75 points you're basically getting... a shuricannon.
It's sad (well, he'd joke around it anyways!) but he's simply not performant.

 Mayk0l wrote:
Solitaire has been a beast so far. Today he killed Ahriman, a Hellbrute, and a whole squad of Rubric Marines in one game. Coolest thing was, Ahriman was actually on the other side of the table, but after the Blitz the Solster was right next to him. Wowza. Probably MVP for me (along with Ravagers, but that's another story). Last game the Solitaire killed a librarian and some honor guard. He's made back his points every game - at least.

To be fair he's always been a beast. He can charge and maybe kill the key character in enemy's army by turn one, ignoring all screens he has and thus cripple an entire army.
Having played him also in an ynnari army, I think he simply needs rising crescendo, it was unbelievable how much I missed that rule on him.

 Mayk0l wrote:
Shadowseer feels.. I don't know, I feel kind of awkward with him. The minus to hit psychic power is limited in range. The movement bonus power is awkward - maybe it's because I haven't painted any jetbikes yet, seems best for those - because he has to stay close to the unit to cast it, but also to be effective, but once cast, the troupe is gone and the buff the Seer gives is gone as well (as they leave the bubble) or he's not around to join in on the charge.
I feel like there's way more potential in these powers than I am seeing or accomplishing right now. His minus to wound bubble has been awesome though.

Troupe Master looks cool on paper, but haven't been able to really use him because I've had trouble getting harlequins into combat.

About the shadowseer I can assure you he's absolutely nuts IF you get your clowns in to CC. Because sooner or later the enemy will disengage and shoot on them, and you'll need him to protect them, move them and possibly use his mirage launcher which most people forgets about but it's a must-use.
Of course the same applies to the TM. To maximise your Harlequin's efficiency in CC is key.

 Mayk0l wrote:
I also feel like the army - mind you I haven't really played any Voidweavers yet, but - is light on heavy weaponry. I won all the games I played but it was mostly thanks to the Drukhari Dakka I brought along with the Clowns.

Some totally awesome things I love about harlequin:
I love how they just ignore all terrain. Just flat out ignore. It feels like a 90's shooter /noclip cheat mode. I particularly love charging through a wall to ignore overwatch.
Ignoring intervening models is cool to. You get to charge whatever you want. This has made the Solitaire so, so effective and scary. He basically teleports to right next to the opposing squishy. Awesome.
Invulnerable saves all around the board is awesome. I don't necessarily like them because I roll so many of them, but they totally speed up the game. I just roll four ups, don't care about rend
Fusion Pistols. Haven't tried them yet, but going to. I love how 8th edition has me trying all these new guns instead of always going stock because almost every upgrade is useless.

So yeah, I'll be painting more harlequins but I as I love a TAC kind of list, I doubt harlequins have all the tools to be flexible all around.

Yeah. I'm glad that I'm not the only one to have seen manoeuvrability and flexibility as Harlequins' best weapons.
Always move fast (thus always Starweavers), pick your targets and fights, hit the enemy hard when you're ready and when he's not, maybe faking some charges sometimes!
Try out some mono-Harlequins and let us know, I can assure you that a couple of Voidweavers (I use three!) and some Skyweavers add an important emergency button in situations where your troupes alone would fail.

I have actually found an incredible amount of power in the Shadowseer's movement ability. Start of turn one I disembark her forward from her transport, and advance her as far up the table towards the enemy as possible. Then I move several starweavers up the board in a formation around her. During the psychic phase, I pick one within 3 inches that didn't advance, and use the "move again" power to slingshot it another 16" up the board towards the enemy.

A few reasons for this:

A. I kit every model possible with a fusion pistol, so more often than not I have a surprise 38" range (a bit longer since you measure open topped shooting range from the vehicle's hull instead of the base) melta alpha strike on an enemy vehicle or monster that almost always nets first blood.Very few things can hide from that, and few people expect it.

B. Puts a threat right in the enemy's face to give them something to deal with.

C. Lets me potentially charge that starweaver into a nearby unit to turn off their shooting.

D. I run the Yncarne in an auxiliary HQ detachment (so that I can keep Rising Crescendo) and more often than not she is summoned onto the table in the center of the enemy after the pop that transport and the guys inside. Through good use of soulbursts and bubble wrap you can typically keep her safe so that she can charge key enemy units next turn when the rest of your forces catch up.

Next turn I can easily repeat the process, and have the shadowseer sling another starweaver after a key target to melta it to death. Or I can just have everyone disembark and charge if the conditions are favorable. Latest that I make combat is turn 3, at which point the game is typically decided. 90% of lists I've played cannot handle this.

I feel like this will be the issue with harlequins. There will be one list composition that works amazingly well and any variation will lead to horrible horrible death.

ClutterEater, thanks for explaining that Shadowseer play to me. I'll try something like that in my coming games. The way you play it sounds like the way it's supposed to go

About the Yncarne and going Ynnari: the Ynnari rules (where units gain Ynnari and SfD but lose their faction rules like rising crescendo) refers to your army as a whole, doesn't matter what detachment your units are in.
Question is however, how Ynnari units are chosen for your army. There are several threads on this. Some say it's all or nothing (your entire army becomes Ynnari regardless of detachments), some think you get to pick the individual units (again detachment doesn't matter).

Yeah, Wyldcarde pretty much hit it right on the nose. Due to our lack of unit variation and the capabilities of other armies, there are really only a few optimal ways to play.

Mayk0I, I think the wording of the Xenos 1 FAQ is very clear:

" If your army is Battle-forged, Ynnari units can only be included in Detachments in which all units have the Ynnari keyword.’"

The auxiliary support detachment (HQ) is a separate detachment from my Harlequin battalion, and supreme command detachments.

The shadowseer has put in a lot of work for me as well. I run two starweavers (one with shadowseer and the other with a troupe master) I place them opposite anything I want dead turn 1. Turn 2 I disembark the starweaver near my shadowseer, move everything up and use twilight pathways to get the players up in charging distance for turn 2. That one-two punch really does some damage. I also have yvraine in my list (I go ynnari) so I can blitz the solitaire turn 1 and words of the phoenix him across the board (average 38" before charge, assuming an average charge of 7" you have 45" of threat. ) Yvraine also works wonders for players who had their starweavers blown up. You can move 8", twilight pathways 8" and words of the phoenix 8" more. That is usually enough of a surprise to catch your opponent off guard.

Is word of the Phoenix and soulburst worth losing rising crescendo for?

Wyldcarde wrote:
Is word of the Phoenix and soulburst worth losing rising crescendo for?

yes a skyweavers moves 22" with raising crescendo but with wotp you can move 32". Wotp allows for two units to charge in turn 1 which is extremely important. One movement from a soul burst is usually better than raising cresendo. If you can ever shoot twice with fusion pistols it is crazy.

Also because we only have 7 different units ynnari adds a lot of flexibility and avoids monobuilds.

Yeah can definitely see the advantages of Ynarri. But rising crescendo is really good as well. I feel like the builds will be different depending on which way you go with that.
There are definitely broken things that can be done with both keywords.

I tried Ynarri and I do not feel that it is worth losing rising crescendo.

- Rising crescendo is far more reliable and I find more useful in most situations.
- the lose of a unit especially for Harle's is not good. the extra action is not worth the ability to charge into combat after falling back.

Soulburst isn't just triggered by your own units dying anymore tho. Wiping an enemy unit does as well.

How often do you fall back with harlequins. I have never had an opponent who wanted more than one round with my harlequins, normally they are the ones falling back. You can fire pistols into combat so even if you get locked in with a vehicle you shouldn't be falling back.

 lambsandlions wrote:
How often do you fall back with harlequins. I have never had an opponent who wanted more than one round with my harlequins, normally they are the ones falling back. You can fire pistols into combat so even if you get locked in with a vehicle you shouldn't be falling back.

Every one of your movement phases.

 ClutterEater wrote:
Yeah, Wyldcarde pretty much hit it right on the nose. Due to our lack of unit variation and the capabilities of other armies, there are really only a few optimal ways to play.

Mayk0I, I think the wording of the Xenos 1 FAQ is very clear:

" If your army is Battle-forged, Ynnari units can only be included in Detachments in which all units have the Ynnari keyword.’"

The auxiliary support detachment (HQ) is a separate detachment from my Harlequin battalion, and supreme command detachments.

Ahhh my apologies! They FAQd this already!
Amazing.

Now I am seriously considering trying out your Tech

From my experience, SfD is a very good ability, but for Harlequins (considered as a faction) is more important to have Rising Crescendo, due to how they play.

Also remember you can only cast WotP once per phase and it may not manifest.

Trystis wrote:

 lambsandlions wrote:
How often do you fall back with harlequins. I have never had an opponent who wanted more than one round with my harlequins, normally they are the ones falling back. You can fire pistols into combat so even if you get locked in with a vehicle you shouldn't be falling back.

Every one of your movement phases.

And what use does it really have?
Harlequin troupes carry pistols, so they can shoot un combat regardless. They don't get bonuses for charging. The only possible (non-situational) bennefits are letting other units shoot into the combat (not a lot of ranged firepower in Harlequins) or getting to attack first. I guess they are nice free advantages, but do you really need them every turn?

Basically means you always attack first.

How are you guys liking multiassaults?
That 'go first' stratagem seriously screws us over, which is mostly useful when you're charging in multiple units into different combats.

Edit: removed a phone autocorrect typo.

Yep. That rule is for going first where you need.

For multiassaulting I usually think in advance (where possible) which one is absolutely key to go first in and maybe avoid charging two units of - say - genestealers. I prefer to charge just one of them and other charges - if needed - go on things that even if they sieze the attack with the stratagem they either do not deal sufficient damage (often this is the case of the Solitaire as he's quite tanky) or it's absolutely worthless to waste 2CP for attacking first with some lootas or similar units.
This follows the general rule I use which is "pick your fights". It's critical for Harlequins to do so, and multiassaults are another reason for it.

What would be an all around good list for 2k Harleys? I know its not a ton of options but curious what you guys think

Do you still have the list I PM'd you when you asked a couple of weeks ago?

Well, that remains my opinion on the matter

Everything would be mounted, to start.

Mine looks something like:

5 man Troupe (all Fusion/Embraces) + Troupe Master (fusion/embrace) + Starweaver

(repeat the above 3 more times)

5 man Troupe (3 Fusion/embraces instead of 5 are needed to make the points work at 2k, if I recall correctly) + Shadowseer + Starweaver

6 Skyweavers with glaives

Brigade + Supreme Command detachment for 7 CP. Boom.

6 drops. You have 5 fast skimmers loaded with fusion and embraces. A shadowseer to double move a transport or jetbikes each turn. Very nasty melee with all those troupe masters around to buff up the troupes (and a few extra you can use to hold isolated objectives or bubble wrap against deep strike). Jetbikes to tie up enemy shooting units on turn one while you boost transports up the board towards them. You're free to then either disembark and charge on turn 2, or stay mounted and blast some targets with melta pistols instead. Fun, fast, strong, and flexible!

Very small list no?
Wouldn't you be able to get more bodies in if you drop some fusion pistols and troupe masters. You'd have to rely a bit more on specialised fusion units and the masters bubble, but you may be able to get another weaver with dudes in your list. Or some dedicated anti tank
I myself always prefer boys over toys.
Or are you relying on fusions to do all the heavy (anti tank) lifting?
Looks like a very vulnerable list. Every death in your list is horrible.

You have to consider how I'm using it. The fusion pistols are serving as anti tank, and they have great synergy with our transports. Harlequins are all about picking and choosing the right battles at the right time, and so I want to wait as long as possible to leave my cushy, fast, hard to hit clown cars. The pistols give me something to do while I wait. The pistols themselves are cheap in the grand scheme of things, and the transports that I'm already paying for give them the range they lack on their own. Rising Crescendo means that I'm always going to be firing them even if I'm charging into/falling back from combat.

If I dropped ALL the fusion pistols in my list I save just short of 250 points. Could I add another clown car? Sure. But now I have no answer to tanks/monsters. Could I add a dedicated anti tank unit? Sure. But now the enemy has an easy target picked out for their big guns. The strength of the list is that each car on its own is a major threat to a variety of units, and the critical mass of fusion pistols (5+ in my experience) is enough to delete most tanks and monsters in one volley.

Instead of giving the enemy a single target to shoot at, you load up on fast, hard hitting transports that are surprisingly tough (-1 to hit and a 4++ goes a LONG way if you position well). Each one is a major threat, and there is no clear priority target.

I nearly always go first. The battle plan is to advance 3-4 of the transports as close as is safe to the enemy (22" in most cases). The shadowseer and 1-2 transports hang back a bit (she actually disembarks forward and advances as far as possible, while her escort positions to discourage sniping her out). The jetbike unit advances 22" and chains back to within 3" of her, depending on how far she was able to advance. Twilight Pathways gives the jetbikes another 22" of movement. 44" plus 2d6" charge range with Fly and HUGE bases means that unless the enemy has a LOT of bubble wrap then you can tie up a large number of their shooting units in close combat with a single charge.

The enemy army now faces 6 jetbikes on top of their biggest guns, and 5 transports loaded with melta clowns bearing down on them. Most armies do not do well in this situation, and my turn two alpha strike cripples them, even if I lose a transport or two (I rarely lose more than one on this turn, especially if I did my job right with the bikes).

In my experience "every death in your list is horrible" translates to "every unit in my list is useful." Very few points are wasted.

Agree. Fusions pistols are the best AT we can field, and having the first turn to act (be that positioning or charge) is key.
I honestly prefer to field a Solitaire and having two separate units of bikes, but that's my taste.
"Hit hard, fast and where you want" seem to be our only way out of this edition, and even then there are simply un-winnable match-ups (AM).
Sigh.

The trick is to be certain you are utilizing your Rising Crescendo and HQ buffs. The moment you realize that getting that 4 attacks x 5 (or more) with a chance to reroll failed wounds during the Fight phase and -1 on wound rolls made against you is going to get you further on turn one than turn two, the better.