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Made in us
Badass "Sister Sin"






Camas, WA

Mavnas wrote:
I mainly bring this up because of a complaint I got one time one time I was fielding an inquisition razorback with TL assault cannon and psybolt ammo. I had modeled it using the GK Psycannon bits since at the time the two weapons had a the same stats. My opponent complainted that it looked too much like a heavy bolter. So I feel like we should definitely be trying hard to make unique stuff distinguishable.

I totally agree. Counts-as/conversions should always be cool, clear and consistent. As long as it meets those three criteria, you should be good to go.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/17 21:03:34


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I mean I guess on my end, I'd be helped by the fact that I'd be running only one type of vehicle.

I can kind of see running immolators in some scenarios, but rhinos are totally pointless now.
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




I think Exorcist is still good. T8 W12 is same with RLBT now. And D6 S8 AP-4 is still useful to kill Multiwound model, like terminater. Maybe you can add Hunter-killer if you want to add little anti-tank.

I like HB sister either, but 8th edition is very easy to make spearhead-detachment. Maybe you can take both of it
   
Made in gb
Sister Oh-So Repentia





 pretre wrote:
Mavnas wrote:
I mainly bring this up because of a complaint I got one time one time I was fielding an inquisition razorback with TL assault cannon and psybolt ammo. I had modeled it using the GK Psycannon bits since at the time the two weapons had a the same stats. My opponent complainted that it looked too much like a heavy bolter. So I feel like we should definitely be trying hard to make unique stuff distinguishable.

I totally agree. Counts-as/conversions should always be cool, clear and consistent. As long as it meets those three criteria, you should be good to go.


I second this statement! The rule of cool is the most important rule. It should fit you're army, not be a distraction or an eyesore and at the very least be tabletop quality (i.e. looks fine from 3 foot away).

These are some of mine

Converted 'Sisters' Iron clad Dread I put together to run in a Castellan's but also works well as a counts-as Penitent engine. It's passed the test because of the number of people who've asked if i'm going to roll a shield of faith saves for it.
Spoiler:

Same again, side angle.
Spoiler:

Immolator turret 3D printed conversion part taking inspiration from the MK1 Immolator and making use of the 'spare' hatch from the vehicle sprue
Spoiler:

3D printed top plate which after painting is very hard to tell from the original.
Spoiler:
   
Made in us
Calm Celestian






Mavnas wrote:
 dracpanzer wrote:
Repressors are an easy conversion from a basic rhino. Couple of pieces of city of death terrain and a heavy flamer and you are all set. Though what Sisters army doesn't love just a bit more bling?


That doesn't add the top bit with the firepoints, does it? I imagine that's the most relevant thing (even though you don't draw LoS from them, they are what makes the vehicle distinctive).


I think this fits the bill. Rule of cool says bling up your Sisters vehicles, but even if you strip down the armor plating, it looks like a repressor.




Order of the Argent Shroud.
Raven Guard 5th Battle Co.
Tzeentch Daemons
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Made in us
Missionary On A Mission





Yeah, I'm thinking of printing out a top "bunker" for my Rhinos, and using the recoil spades that came with my Basilisks to make Repressors. I'm going to need many, one for every Dominion team!

 dracpanzer wrote:

I think this fits the bill. Rule of cool says bling up your Sisters vehicles, but even if you strip down the armor plating, it looks like a repressor.

Spoiler:




Nice! Using the Exorcist panels is a nice touch. I might have to go ahead and do that.

Also, I went down the to store, where they were running an event at 500 points. I can't call it a tournament, since it wasn't, there was no ranking, and there was nothing on the line, but it started out pretty organized with everyone handing in a list, the organizer shuffling them up, then dealing us out in random pairs to tables. There were a lot of us. I'm not sure if I was fortunate enough to get 2 games or unfortunate enough to only get 2 games, considering how many more people there were and how little comparative table space there was. I think there was like 3 or 4 times the number of pairs as there were tables.

I was playing my Imperial Guard tanks, which I haven't actually played in a year, not my Sisters though. I couldn't put together a 500 point Sisters list I was legitimately happy with. I felt like, no matter what permutation I tried, I couldn't strike a satisfying balance of antitank, anti-elite infantry, and anti-horde.

The other Sisters player was there, running Celestine +2 Geminae, 5x Seraphim, and 5x Sisters w/ 2 Flamers in a Immolation Flamer Immolator. I'm not sure how well it did.

Anyway, my battle reports, re-posted from the IG thread, if anyone's interested.
Spoiler:

Battle Reports, on the subject of Leman Russes:

I played 2 games today, 500 points.

My List:
1x Pask Battle Tank, Multimeltas, Lascannon, Storm Bolter
1x Leman Russ Punisher, Heavy Bolter, Heavy Bolters, Storm Bolter
5x Stormtroopers, Volleygun

First Game, vs. Space Marines
Enemy List:
10x Tac Marines, Plasmagun, Lascannon
6x Tac Marines, Missile Launcher
3x Bikers, I forgot what their upgrades were, and it didn't matter
1x Company Captain

The board: We had a big chaos fortress on my opponents side, a contiguous wall that basically spanned his entire deployment region, and a Wall of Martyrs line anchored by Imperial Bastions on mine. It was pretty cool. Smack in the middle of the Chaos fortress, between two watchtowers, was a gate that in the open position. In between the lines was a big field of craters.

I set up around one of the Bastions, using it as cover for the tanks. He sets up his big squad on the battlements of the fortress, small squad behind the wall, and bikes in the open gate. The Captain is hiding behind the small Tactical team.

I went first because I had fewer drops. Straightforward that way, he didn't seize.
IG1: Tanks advance a bit into Multimelta range. Pask rolls crap on the Battle Cannon, but between the Multimeltas, Lascannon, and the 1 Battle Cannon shot I did make, I erase the bikes. They fail their saves and cease to exist.Punisher opens up on the Tac Squad with Lascannon and Plasmagun, who are hiding on the battlements for a 2+, and kills 3. Stormies stay in reserve.
SM1: Shoot at Pask with the Lascannon. No effect. Small tac squad moves into the open gate of the big chaos fortress. Shoot at Pask with the missile launcher, causes 3 wounds.
IG2: I drop in the scions to assassinate his Warlord, but have no effect. The Pask takes a chunk out of the little squad, and the Punisher dramatically overkills what's left of it. I should have fired the gatling cannon at the guys on the battlements and let battleshock finish the guys in the gate, but no loss, no foul.
SM2: The Tac squad climbs down from the battlements. The Captain charges the Scions, flubs and kills 2.
IG3: As the remaining tac squad is hiding out of LoS behind the battlements, I'll have to go through the gate, the only way onto his side of the board, with my tanks, so they move up to midfield. The scions fall back, and the Captain, who is the only visible model, gets turned into bloody giblets by Pask and his Battle Cannon.
SM3: His remaining tac guys execute my stormtroopers.
IG4: Tanks move into the gate.
SM4: Marines climb back up onto the battlements, then fire and overcharge their plasmagun, taking a huge chunk out of Pask, dropping him to 3 wounds. I burn a command point to re-roll his save, but it doesn't do anything.
IG5: Tanks move to get a better line of fire. I burn a CP to re-roll the number of Battle Cannon shots, and do okay, killing one. The Punisher rips up even more of them, and there's 2 of them left. He passes battleshock though.
SM5: He fires his last Lascannon and Plasmagun on overcharge, and kills Pask's tank.
IG6: Punisher tank kills remaining Space Marines.

IG Victory.

Debrief: Punisher was less effective than I liked, and he messed up by not charging my tanks when they came through the gate. Hitting on 5's with the Punisher's secondaries was nasty, though. Stormies were useless.


Second Game, vs. Orks
Enemy List
30x Boyz, 3x Big Shootas.
1x Wierdboy
1x Warboss
1x Painboy
1x Bubblechucka
5x Tankbustaz

I ended up assigned to the same table, so it looks about the same. The deployment pattern changed to having the rectangles at diagonal to each other, and we moved around the bastions, trench, and giant chaos fortress pieces [it was made out of like 4 sections of curtain wall, 2 tall watchtowers, 2 gates, and another section of big section of wall with an angle in it and a staircase on the back. It was so damn massive, I wish I had a Manticore and Wyvern so badly.], but it was pretty much the same sort of thing. We made a second hole in the chaos fortress wall, because that thing was obnoxiously big and the one gate was annoying.

Again, I set up clustered behind a Bastion, and set up my Stormtroopers on the Bastion parapet to shield the tanks from "Da Jump". He put his tankbustaz and bubblechucka on the battlements, and hid the rest of his big mob out of LoS behind the Chaos curtain wall.

I went first again:
IG1: Pask shoots the Bubblechucka, rolls crap on the Battle Cannon, I burn a CP and still get a 2. He kills 2 grots manning the gun. Punisher annihilates the Tankbustaz entirely with the gatling gun. Again, I should have targeted something else with the Heavy Bolters.
Orks1: Da-Jump happens, bringing the big mob in front of my tanks. He shoots the tanks with the Bubblechucka, and manages 2 wounds on Pask. He charges the Punisher with his big mob, fails the charge, re-rolls, and still fails. He loses 5 guys to my total overwatch. The Wierdboy charges, takes 2 wounds from overwatch, and then whiffs at the tank.
IG2: Punisher falls back. Stormies kill the Wierdboy. Pask rolls crap on the Battle Cannon again, and I burn a CP to get a 4. He kills a few Boyz.
Orks2: The boyz kill 3 Stormies, and the remaining 2 are removed by battleshock. They fail a 7" charge to get to Pask, spend a CP to re-roll, and still fail. Warboss and his attendant come out of the gate on the Chaos fortress. Bubblechucka fails to do anything.
IG3: Punisher, feeling better, erases the orkz. When it didn't move, and wasn't hitting on 5's with the Heavy Bolters and Storm Bolter, it was absolutely terrifying. It killed so many of them, and dropped the squad to a half-dozen models. Pask splits fire, using his Storm Bolter and Multimeltas on the Boyz and his Lascannon and Battle Cannon on the Mek Gun. The Boys are dropped to 3 models, and the Mek gun loses a single grot, because the Battle Cannon rolls crappy again. Boyz fail battleshock and are wiped.
Orks3: Mek Gun rolls well, sticks a hard hit on the Punisher because Pask is out of LoS behind the Bastion, but that's it.

Orks concede, IG Victory.

Debrief: Punisher was amazing. It shredded the orks. Pask's battle cannon was less so. Stormies were slightly less useless, but still useless.




More on Tanks, from the battle going on next to me during the second round of matches, IG vs. Deathwatch
I wasn't paying particularly close attention, but the IG player's list looked somewhat similar to mine. He had a Pask Vanquisher with all the trappings, some Stormtroopers, and some rough riders. The Deathwatch guy had a Razorback, a Dreadnought, and the guys in the Razorback.

Their board didn't have a giant goddamn wall across it blocking Line of Sight, and was instead populated by promethium pipes and tall, but very thin, towers with decks at the top.

The IG guy seized the initiative and cracked open the razorback on turn 1. The Stormies annihilated the guys who got out.
The Deathwatch Dreadnought went after the Rough Riders, and the Watch Captain went after the stormies. The rough riders got their ass handed to them
There was a bit of melee through turn 2, but nothing much
Pask demolished the Dreadnought on turn 3, when it got out of combat with the rough riders.

The Deathwatch conceded.



One more, from the table next to me, in the first round of matches, on transports. Orks vs. Black Templar
The Ork list had Ghazskull, a big mob of boyz, and some Lootaz. The BT had Helbrecht and a squad inside a Rhino, and a Dreadnought.

The BT went first, and rushed the Rhino up the board at all-ahead full.
The Orks ran up and charged the Rhino, completely surrounding it. They exploded it right there with a metric crap-ton of dice, and a big argument ensued about what happened to the guys inside it. In the end, only Helbrecht and one of his buddies survived, because the Orks were surrounding it so thoroughly. The Lootas took a chunk off the Dreadnought.
The Dready ran in to save Helbrecht, and the two killed some Orks. Ghazskull ripped the Dready apart, then, Ghazskull ripped Helbrecht apart, and that was game.

Moral of the story: Circle up your wagons!

This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2017/06/18 01:26:01


Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! 
   
Made in us
Sister Oh-So Repentia





Anyone notice you cant put hospilaters, imaginfiers, or any of the Ministorum troops, i.e: Arco-flaggelents, death cults, crusaders in a Repressor because none of them have the <order> key word. Possible benefit to rhinos, most of those things can't shoot out firing points anyway. I am bummed I cant stick my hospitaller in with my retributors and cannonness though

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/06/18 01:39:47


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Yep, I have a Rhino with that 1st game i'm going to play with 7 Repentia, Mistress, Imagifier, Priest. B.c that will be fun (not really the best, but fun). And i have like 15 of those model i've never played with before lol

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Made in us
Badass "Sister Sin"






Camas, WA

Anyone notice that Repressors can take two heavy flamers now? So for 107, you truly are better than an immolator in every respect for 1 point less.

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Yeah I saw that, im using my Immolators as Repressors for now lol.... no reason not to take Repressors.

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Shhhhhh or they will nerf it
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






They might :(

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 pretre wrote:
Anyone notice that Repressors can take two heavy flamers now? So for 107, you truly are better than an immolator in every respect for 1 point less.


Wait, what?

Oh yeah, sweet. Going to see about fitting those dozer blades onto my Immolators, then! I may have to remove the hedgerow plows.

Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! 
   
Made in us
Sadistic Inquisitorial Excruciator





Immolation flamer has better range, doesn't it?
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Mavnas wrote:
Immolation flamer has better range, doesn't it?


12" vs 8"

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Reading/Writing LD, be kind!

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Made in us
Sister Oh-So Repentia





As someone who just played a game of 4inches can make a difference (obligatory that's what she said joke)
   
Made in us
Preacher of the Emperor




 pretre wrote:
Anyone notice that Repressors can take two heavy flamers now? So for 107, you truly are better than an immolator in every respect for 1 point less.


You're paying 1 point less to be slightly worse. The immolation flamer is both Assault and 12" range making it significantly better than 2 heavy flamers and neither the SB or the Dozer blade really make up for it.

The power of the repressor is what you put inside of it which means heavy flamers or standard meltaguns because multi-meltas would make it huge, juicy target while not being significantly superior to regular melta. The repressor here is pretty goddam powerful but it's also very 'eggs in one basket' and suffers from the same issue it's always had where you get wrapped up by a big melee squad and get the troops inside killed which the immolator doesn't have to deal with.

I'd say 1 to 1 the repressor is probably better than the immo but I think it has some pretty big diminishing returns in an edition where huge hordes wrapping up a transport before killing it AND the girls inside is more prevelant.

2500pts
2500
3000


 
   
Made in us
Sister Oh-So Repentia





Maybe they will bring the model kit back? Keep the faith, this edition has delivered us to a new promised land. Anything possible!
   
Made in us
Missionary On A Mission





With regards to not being encircled and destroyed, circle the wagons.

Form up the transports into a ring, so that the assaulting enemies can't move into the middle region, which forms a safe place to unload all their troops when the transports are destroyed.

Also, since troops can fire out of the Repressor, flamers on board might be able to help it torch its way out of CQC if it absolutely has to. I'd still be careful, though.

Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! 
   
Made in us
Repentia Mistress





Denver, CO, USA

Just played my third game of 8th... 1000 points vs Orks. He was down to a single Boss Nob by the end of Turn 2. Everything impressed me. Canoness + HB Rets + Exorcist is a brutal long-range hammer. Vanguard melta Doms still wreck a target of your choice (in this case, a Deff Dred). Seraphim force a ton of saves for their points. Three vehicle hulls on the table at 1000 points is a lot. His warbikes were awesome and would have torn apart my flank, but holy smokes, Sky Striking plasma Scions are absolutely devastating.

   
Made in ca
Renegade Inquisitor with a Bound Daemon





Tied and gagged in the back of your car

Coming from my first two 8th edition games, both against nids at 850 points (the Tyranid player used different lists for each game), I have to say that I'm pretty happy with sisters. My list was as follows:

(Outrider Detachment, 827 points)
HQ

Celestine (Geminae Superia*2)
Canoness (Eviscerator, Combi-Plasma)

Elites
Vindicare Assassin

Fast Attack
Dominions*5 (Melta*4, Combi-Melta)
Dominions*5 (Flamers*2, Stormbolters*2, Combi-Flamer)
Dominions*5 (Stormbolters*5)

Transports
Repressor (Heavy Flamers*2, Stormbolter)

A few points:

-Flamers are mediocre, stormbolters are the new hotness. With flamers throwing out 3.5 hits on average at 8" or less, stormbolters do comparable damage (they actually do more within 8" if a Canoness is giving rerolling 1s) while being potent all the way up to 24". Flamers are only really useful for overwatch, but even that goes up in smoke if the chargers are coming from beyond 8". And all of this is before you even consider that stormbolters cost less than half as much as flamers. Meltas, especially in the hands of 5 Dominions are everything you would expect of them; expensive, but worth every point and then some when you need something dead NOW.

-Repressors are potent, but not as ridiculous as some people may have feared. The ability to use fire points is really nice, but it does come at the cost of losing access to acts of faith, overwatch, and synergy buffs. It's a tradeoff of the raw power and range of the individual sisters and Immolator respectively in favour of a more versatile all-rounder. In both of the games I played, I have a strong feeling that an Immolator would have performed better, although the Repressor still ended up working out quite well. While I still think that I'll need to play around with it a bit more before I get a really good idea of its value, I don't think that it's particularly OP by any regard.

-Celestine is ridiculously good. It's nice to have a unit as capable as she is, but she's pretty much necessary for any Sisters list to be considered remotely competitive, and I'm not a fan of units being auto-include.

-Canoness is a solid buff giver, but she needs access to a jump pack. Its ridiculous that GW took this away in the first place, and it really hurts her niche in 8th edition. She's already playing a pretty distant second fiddle to Celestine, the lack of mobility is just a kick in the head.

-Dominions are really good. Their role changes entirely with their loadout, and they do it all pretty well. Between them and Retributors, I don't see much of a point of ever taking the standard sister. Celestians also look to just be a costlier version of the standard sister. With no dedicated close combat tools and a standard S3/T3 statline, the increased WS and attacks values are put entirely to waste, and the bodyguard ability isn't anything to cry home about, especially in an army as offensively focused as the Sisters are.

-I didn't get to use Seraphim, but they look like they could be pretty good. Using the same slot as Dominions means that there's some pretty healthy competition for those FOC slots. I can't see myself using Seraphim as the core of an army, but one or two units acting as interference could be effective.

-While not an SoB model himself, the Vindicare proved to be pretty underwhelming. Even when you discount bad rolling (he never actually managed to hit a single model that wasn't a gaunt after everything was wiped out anyway with shooting in both games I played him, even burning command points for every shot), he doesn't strike me as being particularly potent. D3 damage per turn just does not strike me as being enough damage to get the job done properly, and it's entirely without a role if your opponent can find a way to deny you shots at their characters. Surprisingly good in close combat, however. It feels like the best assassins are going to be the Eversor for just killing things dead, and the Culexus for tying things up with that sweet, sweet Etherium.

-Without relying on units outside the faction, Ministorum psychic defenses are pathetic. You're going to want to look outside your comfort zone for this, some powers out there are straight up vicious (this goes right back to reinforcing the value of the above-mentioned Culexus).

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2017/06/18 06:59:19


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






From reading and seeing other so far.

Storm Bolters on BSS
HB's on Rets
Dom either Flamer or Melta depending what you want
Exorcist are still good

Repressors and Immolators are both good and most likely should take each.

Canoness are good as well, but put these with Doms/Rets


@Fafnir FoC are easy to get now, we can take the 6 FA one and another FoC if we need too.

I have a friend that played the Vindicare Assassin for 3-4 games and we both agree it doesnt really do much, its very hit or miss.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/18 13:53:17


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Made in us
Repentia Mistress






For those with 3d printers, i am making the repressor top piece now in cad. will release on thingiverse when done, should make your conversions a little nicer


 
   
Made in us
Badass "Sister Sin"






Camas, WA

ERJAK wrote:
 pretre wrote:
Anyone notice that Repressors can take two heavy flamers now? So for 107, you truly are better than an immolator in every respect for 1 point less.


You're paying 1 point less to be slightly worse. The immolation flamer is both Assault and 12" range making it significantly better than 2 heavy flamers and neither the SB or the Dozer blade really make up for it.

The power of the repressor is what you put inside of it which means heavy flamers or standard meltaguns because multi-meltas would make it huge, juicy target while not being significantly superior to regular melta. The repressor here is pretty goddam powerful but it's also very 'eggs in one basket' and suffers from the same issue it's always had where you get wrapped up by a big melee squad and get the troops inside killed which the immolator doesn't have to deal with.

I'd say 1 to 1 the repressor is probably better than the immo but I think it has some pretty big diminishing returns in an edition where huge hordes wrapping up a transport before killing it AND the girls inside is more prevelant.

Wait, wait wait.

1 point less, heavy and 4" less range. That's the difference, and fair enough for the parts I missed. You gain more wounds, better dozer/WS, fire points, etc.

Your second paragraph is true of pretty much any transport that you shoot out of. That being said, I'd rather try for the survivability. And here's my secret... If you're going to get wrapped and killed? Disembark or move to somewhere where that won't happen. But for most of the rest of the time, use your nice mobile bunker.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/18 14:22:21


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 ncshooter426 wrote:
For those with 3d printers, i am making the repressor top piece now in cad. will release on thingiverse when done, should make your conversions a little nicer


OH!

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Made in us
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RoninXiC wrote:
The passengers cannot fire overwatch. They are not the target of the charge, the transport is.


That makes no sense. When embarked, they are treated as one unit. Movement of the transport impacts the shooting phase of troops, explosions damage troops etc. They only unbind after disembarking.

If there are firing points, the unit inside IS the transport, and can fire. If its enclosed, then they would have no idea and would not fire. Same for open top, the sure as hell would shoot.

If gw changed that rule, that is beyond stupid.


 
   
Made in us
Badass "Sister Sin"






Camas, WA

The more I look at it, the more I think that the Repressor and Immolator are pretty balanced to each other.

Immo can move a bit faster and still shoot. Repressor is tougher but slower and people can shoot out.

The fact that I'm torn between the two is good design.

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Angelic Adepta Sororitas




Los Angeles, CA

To me the repressor is vastly better than the immolator. So far I did not find that either the ability to advance+shoot or the extra 4" range to be that big of a deal. Also the 2 games I played them I actually went first, so there is some bias here.
And sure I can't AoF the dominions themselves while embarked, but my AoF usually go elsewhere anyway (Rets, Seraphims, etc...).

On the other hand:
- shooting without needing to disembark is huge.
- the extra 2W is pretty good.
- the dozer blade is amazing. I use to charge with tanks to absorb overwatch or force unit to fall back, dealing 9 attacks S6 AP-1 to an infantry unit is actually something. Specially against T3 when you wound on 2+;
- having the repressor being able to fall back while the unit inside can still shoot is huge.
- the extra stormbolter (when taking 2 HF) is a small bonus too.
   
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Badass "Sister Sin"






Camas, WA

I thought it was just roll three times for each attack and pick the best. 3 times the number of attacks is pretty awesome.

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Longtime Dakkanaut




Nono
For each attack roll 3 attack die. 3*3 = 9 attacks.
So the repressor is "okay" in melee. At least a lot better than any of our other tanks.
   
 
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