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I think the Trygon, rules as written, would get three bonus attacks by splitting them among the three sets of talons to trigger all of the bonuses. But I would be happier if scything talons (both versions) were worded something like this:

"For each additional pair of scything tallons (or massive) beyond the first, this creature may make one additional attack with this weapon."

That would be a good middle ground, as it would give triple scything guys (Raveners, Trygons, and Mawlocks) two bonus attacks confined to the weapon, it would close the door on this splitting attacks to milk it nonsense, and it would stop the extra attacks from being applied elsewhere. Plus, it makes up for having to waste an attack on the inferior tail weapon.....

 Phazael wrote:
I think the Trygon, rules as written, would get three bonus attacks by splitting them among the three sets of talons to trigger all of the bonuses. But I would be happier if scything talons (both versions) were worded something like this:

"For each additional pair of scything tallons (or massive) beyond the first, this creature may make one additional attack with this weapon."

That would be a good middle ground, as it would give triple scything guys (Raveners, Trygons, and Mawlocks) two bonus attacks confined to the weapon, it would close the door on this splitting attacks to milk it nonsense, and it would stop the extra attacks from being applied elsewhere. Plus, it makes up for having to waste an attack on the inferior tail weapon.....

You don't have to split attacks to milk it. The rules not give you +1a. The bonus attacks have to be made with that weapon when it fights. Even if you had a tail 4th weapon you could make all of its base attacks with the tail and still get 1 bonus attack that must be made with each scytal


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Its not " when it fights with this weapon it gets 1 extra attack that must use this weapon".

Its "when it fights it gets 1 extra attack that must use this weapon."

Your base a characteristic can be used however you want. The bonus attacks cannot be made with anything but the pair of scytal that granted it.

 Lance845 wrote:
Look at each weapon I.e. each pair. Lets call them pair a b and c

First pair a: qualifier - if you have more than one pair... Has 3, see b and c. Check. Effect: than +1a with this weapon. I.e. +1a that must be made with pair a.

Next pair b: qualifier - if you have more than one pair... Has 3, see a and c. Check. Effect: than +1a with this weapon. I.e. +1a that must be made with pair b.

Last pair c: qualifier - if you have more than one pair... Has 3, see b and a. Check. Effect: than +1a with this weapon. I.e. +1a that must be made with pair c.


Each pair is its own weapon with the same rule. When a huge tyrant Buys deathspitters x2 its not 2 guns that shoot 3 times its 2 guns that shoot 3 times EACH.

Just because you buy 2 or 3 pairs together does not mean their weapon profiles combine.

This seems to be the correct way to go on this. There is no profile for "three pairs of scything talons" - there's a profile for one pair, repeated three times.

It's +1 attack, not +3.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
It's +1 attack, not +3.

That's not what the rule says.

I'm in the camp of you get 3 extra attacks. I think what's confusing is the talons only have one line entry for brevity, but it says it's equipped with three, so it really has 3 seperate entries one for each pair of talons, so you have 3 things that each say, ..."make one extra attack." 3 extra attacks in total.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr_Rose wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Look at each weapon I.e. each pair. Lets call them pair a b and c

First pair a: qualifier - if you have more than one pair... Has 3, see b and c. Check. Effect: than +1a with this weapon. I.e. +1a that must be made with pair a.

Next pair b: qualifier - if you have more than one pair... Has 3, see a and c. Check. Effect: than +1a with this weapon. I.e. +1a that must be made with pair b.

Last pair c: qualifier - if you have more than one pair... Has 3, see b and a. Check. Effect: than +1a with this weapon. I.e. +1a that must be made with pair c.


Each pair is its own weapon with the same rule. When a huge tyrant Buys deathspitters x2 its not 2 guns that shoot 3 times its 2 guns that shoot 3 times EACH.

Just because you buy 2 or 3 pairs together does not mean their weapon profiles combine.

This seems to be the correct way to go on this. There is no profile for "three pairs of scything talons" - there's a profile for one pair, repeated three times.

Yes this

 Lance845 wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
It's +1 attack, not +3.

That's not what the rule says.

...in your opinion. In mine it is. I read it as one weapon profile with two variants - A) 1 pair, B) more than one pair. They'd have said "add +1A per extra pair" if they'd wanted your interpretation to be the one.

Is unclear. Needs a FAQ. Not much new information to see here

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
It's +1 attack, not +3.

That's not what the rule says.

...in your opinion. In mine it is. I read it as one weapon profile with two variants - A) 1 pair, B) more than one pair. They'd have said "add +1A per extra pair" if they'd wanted your interpretation to be the one.

It's not an opinion. That is how english and sentence structure works. It says exactly what I have spelled out. That could easily be one of the many mistakes in the core rules and indexes. But what it actually says is that there are multiple weapons with the same profile.

The Hive Tyrants profile says it is equipped with two pairs of massive scything talons. Below that is a profile for Massive Scything Talons. At the back of the book where the profiles for weapons exist there is no profile for two pairs of Massive Scything talons. There fore... 2 weapons each with their own profile that each grant +1 attack that must be used with that weapon, i.e. +2 attacks.

Is there a profile for 3 pairs of scytal? Nope. Guess it's 3 weapons since it's data slate says it comes equiped with 3 and below that it has a profile for a single pair. Shocker. +3 attacks.

What does each weapon say?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 luke1705 wrote:
Is unclear. Needs a FAQ. Not much new information to see here

It's very clear RAW. It's arguable that it's unclear RAI. I wold appreciate a FAQ for confirmation of intent.

RAW is clearly +1 attack. RAI - most likely they wanted the Trygon to get +2 attacks.

 Xenomancers wrote:
RAW is clearly +1 attack. RAI - most likely they wanted the Trygon to get +2 attacks.

Well, there is no fixing a lack of reading comprehension.

What does each weapon say?

Nothing. There is no 'each weapon'.

The weapon says +1 attack.

if they wanted it to grant more attacks, they would have worded it like the ork dread klaw.

In 8th, models get assign attacks to a weapon profile, it does not matter how many (or few) weapons there are- a trygon does not attack with _3 pairs of massive scything talons_, it attacks with _massive scything talons_, Because it has more than one pair, it ticks the clause in the ability box and gets +1 attack.

The alternatives are:
1+ pair- reroll ones.
2+ pairs- +1 attack and reroll ones.

But the number of pairs are just a qualifier for that ability, they are not separate weapons.

if they wanted it to grant more attacks, it would say so. just like the dread klaw. Elsewise you're making the argument that a twin heavy las cannon has 2 shots, so each barrel fires twice.



Additionally, for weapons that grant bonus attacks, there is no need to fight with that weapon, unless it has completely different wording. Almost all are 'each time bearer fights' as the trigger, the limitation is only for what weapon it can make the extra attack with.

Voss wrote:

What does each weapon say?

Nothing. There is no 'each weapon'.

The weapon says +1 attack.

if they wanted it to grant more attacks, they would have worded it like the ork dread klaw.

In 8th, models get assign attacks to a weapon profile, it does not matter how many (or few) weapons there are- a trygon does not attack with _3 pairs of massive scything talons_, it attacks with _massive scything talons_, Because it has more than one pair, it ticks the clause in the ability box and gets +1 attack.

The alternatives are:
1+ pair- reroll ones.
2+ pairs- +1 attack and reroll ones.

But the number of pairs are just a qualifier for that ability, they are not separate weapons.

if they wanted it to grant more attacks, it would say so. just like the dread klaw. Elsewise you're making the argument that a twin heavy las cannon has 2 shots, so each barrel fires twice.



Additionally, for weapons that grant bonus attacks, there is no need to fight with that weapon, unless it has completely different wording. Almost all are 'each time bearer fights' as the trigger, the limitation is only for what weapon it can make the extra attack with.

It does not say +1 a. It says +1 attack WITH THIS WEAPON. There is no profile... anywhere... for a weapon that is multiple pairs of scything talons. Your last part is correct, The Scytals do not require you to use them to gt the bonus attacks. It has the "each time the bearer fights" trigger.



"A Hive Tyrant is a single model equipped with two pairs of monstrous scything talons and a prehensile pincer tail. "

Weapon profile.
"Monstrous Scything Talons - You can re-roll hit rolls of 1 when attacking with this weapon. If the bearer has more than one pair of monstrous scything talons, it can make one additional attack with this weapon each time i fights."

Again... there is no profile.... anywhere... for a single weapon representing multiple pairs. Only variable points costs for buying them in bulk.

SO. 2 weapons with the same profile.

Lets break down the rule you seem to have trouble reading.

There is a qualifier. Having more than 1 pair.There is a second qualifier: "Each time it fights". There is an effect: +1 attack with this weapon. An attack that has to be made with that specific weapon. If you don't have multiple weapons you cannot meet the qualifier. But if you do have multiple weapons then you have 2 different weapons that each have the same rule, meet the same qualifiers, and provide the same benefit.

Each weapon provides +1a that must be done with the weapon that grants it. 2 pairs. 2 attacks. 3 pairs, 3 attacks.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
You have to be actively ignoring the "with this weapon" and "more than one" and "each time it fights" sentence fragments to be seeing it as anything other than +1 attacks per pair.

its plus one attack with this weapon, not plus one attack with each one of these...

it indicates which profile to use for the single bonus attack granted from having more then one pair of the talons.

 easysauce wrote:
its plus one attack with this weapon, not plus one attack with each one of these...

it indicates which profile to use for the single bonus attack granted from having more then one pair of the talons.

Each weapon has the same rule. so if one profile says Plus one attack with this weapon and the second weapon says +1 attack with this weapon... than....?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
it can make one additional attack with this weapon each time it fights.

Not each time it fights with this weapon. Each time it fights. If it's fighting, regardless of which weapon is used, it gets +1 attack with this weapon. How many weapons does it need to get that bonus? 2+. How many of those weapons have that rule? All of them. How many bonus attacks do you get? One for each weapon.

Index Xenos 2
page 139 has a point value for:

Massive scything talons (two or more pairs)(Trygon and Trygon Prime) 60

Page 141 has a melee weapon entry for Massive scything talons

You can re-roll hit rolls of a 1 when attacking with this weapon. If the bearer has more than one pair of scything talons, it can make 1 additional attack with this weapon each time it fights

Because the only way to buy Massive Scything Talons is as 'Massive scything talons (two or more pairs)(Trygon and Trygon Prime)' for 60 pts it is one piece of wargear and the bonus is only applied once

Col_Caffran wrote:
Index Xenos 2
page 139 has a point value for:

Massive scything talons (two or more pairs)(Trygon and Trygon Prime) 60

Page 141 has a melee weapon entry for Massive scything talons

You can re-roll hit rolls of a 1 when attacking with this weapon. If the bearer has more than one pair of scything talons, it can make 1 additional attack with this weapon each time it fights

Because the only way to buy Massive Scything Talons is as 'Massive scything talons (two or more pairs)(Trygon and Trygon Prime)' for 60 pts it is one piece of wargear and the bonus is only applied once

Ok, that's different; I didn't see that entry somehow. It's only +1 Attack in that case.

Col_Caffran wrote:
Index Xenos 2
page 139 has a point value for:

Massive scything talons (two or more pairs)(Trygon and Trygon Prime) 60

Page 141 has a melee weapon entry for Massive scything talons

You can re-roll hit rolls of a 1 when attacking with this weapon. If the bearer has more than one pair of scything talons, it can make 1 additional attack with this weapon each time it fights

Because the only way to buy Massive Scything Talons is as 'Massive scything talons (two or more pairs)(Trygon and Trygon Prime)' for 60 pts it is one piece of wargear and the bonus is only applied once

How you pay points for the wargear has no effect on the wargear rules. You would be much better to argue that you have to pay for it 3 times since the Trygon states it has 3 PAIRS of massive ST. But the rule is clear, its +3 attacks, whether intended or not is debatable.

 Lance845 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
RAW is clearly +1 attack. RAI - most likely they wanted the Trygon to get +2 attacks.

Well, there is no fixing a lack of reading comprehension.

The comprehension is good - you just fail to realize that it is not 3 weapons - it is a single weapon.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
RAW is clearly +1 attack. RAI - most likely they wanted the Trygon to get +2 attacks.

Well, there is no fixing a lack of reading comprehension.

The comprehension is good - you just fail to realize that it is not 3 weapons - it is a single weapon.

It is not a single weapon. It is 3 PAIRS of Massive ST. You are allowed to pay 1 price for all three though, but costs have nothing to do with weapon rules.

"Tyranid Point values" is for list building.

"Tyranid Wargear" is rules for playing.

Fragile wrote:

Col_Caffran wrote:
Index Xenos 2
page 139 has a point value for:

Massive scything talons (two or more pairs)(Trygon and Trygon Prime) 60

Page 141 has a melee weapon entry for Massive scything talons

You can re-roll hit rolls of a 1 when attacking with this weapon. If the bearer has more than one pair of scything talons, it can make 1 additional attack with this weapon each time it fights

Because the only way to buy Massive Scything Talons is as 'Massive scything talons (two or more pairs)(Trygon and Trygon Prime)' for 60 pts it is one piece of wargear and the bonus is only applied once

How you pay points for the wargear has no effect on the wargear rules. You would be much better to argue that you have to pay for it 3 times since the Trygon states it has 3 PAIRS of massive ST. But the rule is clear, its +3 attacks, whether intended or not is debatable.

It gives us a good reference for what the weapon actually is. Not paying additional points for additional MST after the second is a dead give away.

Fragile wrote:

How you pay points for the wargear has no effect on the wargear rules. You would be much better to argue that you have to pay for it 3 times since the Trygon states it has 3 PAIRS of massive ST. But the rule is clear, its +3 attacks, whether intended or not is debatable.

Rereading the rule I've come to a revelation, rules as written say

If the bearer has more than one pair of scything talons, it can make 1 additional attack with this weapon each time it fights

The Trygon and Trygon Prime have 0 pairs of scything talons and 3 pairs of Massive scything talons so it shouldn't get any bonus attacks at all. This needs an FAQ

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
RAW is clearly +1 attack. RAI - most likely they wanted the Trygon to get +2 attacks.

Well, there is no fixing a lack of reading comprehension.

The comprehension is good - you just fail to realize that it is not 3 weapons - it is a single weapon.

It literally says right there its armed with 3, how is that a single weapon. If you were right then there'd be no reason to have multiple pairs, and there'd be no benefit to ever taking multiple pairs on any of the nid units that can do scytals. It makes no sense to specifically say it has 3 if it's one weapon.

But rather than put
Pair of scything talons: rule
Pair of scything talons: rule
Pair of scything talons: rule

They listed the rule once and then tell you it has 3x of those to obviously save space.

My leman Russ can take 2 heavy bolter sponsons and one hull bolter, but heavy bolters are only listed once on its unit card. By your logic all 3 of them combined only shoot equal to the one entry for a single heavy bolter.

Col_Caffran wrote:

Fragile wrote:

How you pay points for the wargear has no effect on the wargear rules. You would be much better to argue that you have to pay for it 3 times since the Trygon states it has 3 PAIRS of massive ST. But the rule is clear, its +3 attacks, whether intended or not is debatable.

Rereading the rule I've come to a revelation, rules as written say

If the bearer has more than one pair of scything talons, it can make 1 additional attack with this weapon each time it fights

The Trygon and Trygon Prime have 0 pairs of scything talons and 3 pairs of Massive scything talons so it shouldn't get any bonus attacks at all. This needs an FAQ

You, sir, get to write the next FAQ.

RAW the Scything Talons Pairs each grant one extra attack assuming there are more than one pair.
Again, I have no idea what RAI are. It needs an FAQ.

And the sporecyste does not come equiped with a spore node and has no option to take one. Obvious typos and missed entries aside, we all agree that Any of the various versions of ScyTal have the same rule for generating extra attacks.

RAW the only question is how many weapons exist on a model.

The Trygon/prime/mawloc have 3 pairs. 3 weapons with the same rule. Carnifex, warriors, Raveners, Hive Tyrants, shrikes etc etc... can all have 2. 2 weapons with the same rule.

RAW they generate +1 attacks per weapon when they have more than one.

But yeah RAW Trygons get no extra attacks.. as the special rule doesn't actually apply to the weapon equipped =D

LOL, depends on where you read the rule

Fragile wrote:
LOL, depends on where you read the rule

that is true in the wargear section it has the correct wording.


But don't worry guys the Scything Talons get worse in the FW books..

It is either a case that the Barded Heirodule has too many.. or the Scything Heirodule has not enough...

The name of the weapon is "massive scything talons"

"This weapon" refers to "massive scything talons" in the plural.

We are dealing with the case of a singular weapon profile representing however many scything talons on the model.

You can't split your attacks with this weapon since its only one weapon RAW no matter how many pairs are represented on the model.

The rule for the weapon checks how many physical pairs you have and grants an extra attack to the massive scything talons weapons if the models is equipped with more than one pair.