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 Rolsheen wrote:
Vindicare Assassin is my go to guy. Twice he's taken 6 wounds of a character in a single turn.
Just don't like that his accuracy has dropped, a Canadian sniper recently pulled of a 3km kill but Vinny can miss point blank.

Canadians, more awesome then Vindicare assasins.

Rolsheen wrote:Vindicare Assassin is my go to guy. Twice he's taken 6 wounds of a character in a single turn.
Just don't like that his accuracy has dropped, a Canadian sniper recently pulled of a 3km kill but Vinny can miss point blank.

To score 6 wounds with a Vindicare, you need to roll a 6 to wound, then a 6 on the D6 damage. That's very unlikely.
Many characters have 5-6 wounds, which take a Vindicare an average of 3 turns to deal with.
So, like most snipers, he's okay to finish off a character, but not to reliably take one down. But most characters are buffers, and killing them late in the game when they don't have any unit to buff anymore is pointless.

Robin5t wrote:The only sniper we have is the Death Jester, and honestly he's really rubbish at it. The only character he's likely to kill with shooting is one of the Guard's T3 5+ ones.

And even then, it will usually take two turns.
I think they lost an opportunity to transform his shrieker cannon into an anti-horde thing. Causing mortal wounds on the shrieker's explosion is utterly useless, as you'll never shoot units with good saves with the single-shot mode. I mean, theoretically it's better against infantry that has a good invul and no save (like harlies or daemons), but it's so random…

BrianDavion wrote:

 Rolsheen wrote:
Vindicare Assassin is my go to guy. Twice he's taken 6 wounds of a character in a single turn.
Just don't like that his accuracy has dropped, a Canadian sniper recently pulled of a 3km kill but Vinny can miss point blank.

Canadians, more awesome then Vindicare assasins.

What about Canadian (or what was formally known as Canada) Vindicares? Are they sort of like Canadian geese? Not real in the sense that geese don't have a nationality? (For those not in the know, there is no such thing as Canadian geese).

I've had great success with Eldar Rangers + Illic Nightspear.
They won't get hit by alpha strikes and when they eventually hit the board, they are still reasonably difficult to shift thanks to their bonus to save rolls.

For my Ynnari they have proven to be a rather useful soulburst trigger.

 Red__Thirst wrote:

 Selym wrote:
I use D-Scythe Wraithguard with a Wave Serpent.

Always go full D-Scythe Wraithguard with a Wave Serpent.

Also, iirc, psykers can cast Smite on whomsoever they choose, as it's not shooting. So Farseers and Warlocks.

Smite must be cast on the closest target. So you can only target the character if it is the closest model to the psyker. It does work if that's the case, though.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

But if the character is the closest model you can target him with shooting anyway, so its a bit of a moot point.

fresus wrote:

Rolsheen wrote:Vindicare Assassin is my go to guy. Twice he's taken 6 wounds of a character in a single turn.
Just don't like that his accuracy has dropped, a Canadian sniper recently pulled of a 3km kill but Vinny can miss point blank.

To score 6 wounds with a Vindicare, you need to roll a 6 to wound, then a 6 on the D6 damage. That's very unlikely.
Many characters have 5-6 wounds, which take a Vindicare an average of 3 turns to deal with.
So, like most snipers, he's okay to finish off a character, but not to reliably take one down. But most characters are buffers, and killing them late in the game when they don't have any unit to buff anymore is pointless.

All that is correct, but the threat of that instagib is there with the Vindicare, and that alone is enough to force your opponent into making changes to how he plays models, or hell just risks the lucky shot. Plus the Vindicare being a character himself makes him largely immune to counter sniper fire, unlike most other sniper units. Overall 1 feels worth it in many lists.

Ratlings seem to be just hugely superior to all other options, and if something like a Vindicare or a unit of Eldar Rangers is an attractive choice, then Ratlings must be just about the most broken thing in the game.

A Vindicare averages about 1.33 wounds on a T4 3+/4++ character. 100 points of Rangers averages 1.11 wounds. 91 points of Ratlings averages 2.89 wounds. Ratlings are also significantly more durable for their cost than other non-character snipers and can jump-shoot-jump at the cost of 25% reduced damage (and can fall back after shooting at no penalty regardless). The enemy has to kill more than half of the Ratlings before their damage output drops below the Vindicare's, and of course they additionally function very well for Deep Strike denial. The Ratlings are also far better than the Vindicare against non-infantry characters.

And the kicker? Ratlings can be included in ANY imperial army.

I've seen a number of snipers in game and played against a couple different things now and I'd say the best are the skitarii rangers, the vindicare and the ratlings.
The vindicare is a lot more survivable and harder to get rid of as a character who will sit behind your lines making him hard to reach but weight of dice and the high damage and AP output of the ratlings and rangers seem better from what I've seen. The rangers especially. Those arquebus rifles are deadly.

Dionysodorus wrote:
Ratlings seem to be just hugely superior to all other options, and if something like a Vindicare or a unit of Eldar Rangers is an attractive choice, then Ratlings must be just about the most broken thing in the game.

A Vindicare averages about 1.33 wounds on a T4 3+/4++ character. 100 points of Rangers averages 1.11 wounds. 91 points of Ratlings averages 2.89 wounds. Ratlings are also significantly more durable for their cost than other non-character snipers and can jump-shoot-jump at the cost of 25% reduced damage (and can fall back after shooting at no penalty regardless). The enemy has to kill more than half of the Ratlings before their damage output drops below the Vindicare's, and of course they additionally function very well for Deep Strike denial. The Ratlings are also far better than the Vindicare against non-infantry characters.

Killing Ratlings really isn't a challenge. Their poor morale loses them models too, limiting their realistic on table durability

Yeah, aren't they like T2 with a 5+ save, 3+ in cover? If you have trouble killing T2 models, you are probably doing something wrong.
Cover can be negated by AP now, so bring out the heavy bolters or whatever.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Yeah, aren't they like T2 with a 5+ save, 3+ in cover?

Boltguns wound them on a 2+ XD

MaxT wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:
Ratlings seem to be just hugely superior to all other options, and if something like a Vindicare or a unit of Eldar Rangers is an attractive choice, then Ratlings must be just about the most broken thing in the game.

A Vindicare averages about 1.33 wounds on a T4 3+/4++ character. 100 points of Rangers averages 1.11 wounds. 91 points of Ratlings averages 2.89 wounds. Ratlings are also significantly more durable for their cost than other non-character snipers and can jump-shoot-jump at the cost of 25% reduced damage (and can fall back after shooting at no penalty regardless). The enemy has to kill more than half of the Ratlings before their damage output drops below the Vindicare's, and of course they additionally function very well for Deep Strike denial. The Ratlings are also far better than the Vindicare against non-infantry characters.

Killing Ratlings really isn't a challenge. Their poor morale loses them models too, limiting their realistic on table durability

Yes, this is all true. They are still significantly more durable for their cost than other non-character snipers in most situations. That's how cheap they are. For example, you get three Ratlings for the price of an Eldar Ranger. Yeah, killing two Ratlings means that on average a third is very likely to run away, but you've still got to kill two Ratlings for every one Ranger. Bolters will kill two Ratlings more easily than one Ranger, but it can be hard getting into range, and once we start talking about higher strength or better AP on long-range weaponry the Ratlings gain a lot of relative durability.

Also note that because you're typically going to see independently-operating Ratlings in units of 5, the effect of morale on the unit is limited. If you kill one, you expect another 0.5 to run. If you kill two, you expect another 1 to run. But if you kill three you only expect another 1.17 to run on average because there are only two models left in the unit. And if you kill 4 you only expect another 0.83 to run. So to go back to the Ranger comparison, in many cases you really are closer to needing to kill them 3-for-1 to be more efficient.

 Rolsheen wrote:
Vindicare Assassin is my go to guy. Twice he's taken 6 wounds of a character in a single turn.
Just don't like that his accuracy has dropped, a Canadian sniper recently pulled of a 3km kill but Vinny can miss point blank.

I also lament the drop of the Vindicare, but, in this edition he's still solid. Definitely deploy him in the tallest ruins possible. The threat of the Vindicare really changes how people play, even if he doesn't get to kill that many characters.


And Ratlings don't have a 72" range. Put the Vindicare high enough and he can see anything. And a larger footrpint is easier to hit. Remember, if you can see ONE model now, you can inflict casualties on the entire unit. So that 1 exposed Ratling in your 91 points of Ratlings can bring down the entire squad.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Rolsheen wrote:
Vindicare Assassin is my go to guy. Twice he's taken 6 wounds of a character in a single turn.
Just don't like that his accuracy has dropped, a Canadian sniper recently pulled of a 3km kill but Vinny can miss point blank.

I also lament the drop of the Vindicare, but, in this edition he's still solid. Definitely deploy him in the tallest ruins possible. The threat of the Vindicare really changes how people play, even if he doesn't get to kill that many characters.


And Ratlings don't have a 72" range. Put the Vindicare high enough and he can see anything. And a larger footrpint is easier to hit. Remember, if you can see ONE model now, you can inflict casualties on the entire unit. So that 1 exposed Ratling in your 91 points of Ratlings can bring down the entire squad.

A Vindicare can also come out of hiding (read deepstrike) anywhere on the board in any of your movement phases so while they know where other snipers are and just stay out of line of sight you're opponent doesn't know where a vindicare will appear from. Eldar Rangers also have this trick. It means they're almost guaranteed to get Line of Sight on their target. I don't think it counts as a move either so no -1BS

Taffy17 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Rolsheen wrote:
Vindicare Assassin is my go to guy. Twice he's taken 6 wounds of a character in a single turn.
Just don't like that his accuracy has dropped, a Canadian sniper recently pulled of a 3km kill but Vinny can miss point blank.

I also lament the drop of the Vindicare, but, in this edition he's still solid. Definitely deploy him in the tallest ruins possible. The threat of the Vindicare really changes how people play, even if he doesn't get to kill that many characters.


And Ratlings don't have a 72" range. Put the Vindicare high enough and he can see anything. And a larger footrpint is easier to hit. Remember, if you can see ONE model now, you can inflict casualties on the entire unit. So that 1 exposed Ratling in your 91 points of Ratlings can bring down the entire squad.

A Vindicare can also come out of hiding (read deepstrike) anywhere on the board in any of your movement phases so while they know where other snipers are and just stay out of line of sight you're opponent doesn't know where a vindicare will appear from. Eldar Rangers also have this trick. It means they're almost guaranteed to get Line of Sight on their target. I don't think it counts as a move either so no -1BS

Most sniper units have infiltrate effects to put them up board or on high ground.

 Desubot wrote:

Taffy17 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Rolsheen wrote:
Vindicare Assassin is my go to guy. Twice he's taken 6 wounds of a character in a single turn.
Just don't like that his accuracy has dropped, a Canadian sniper recently pulled of a 3km kill but Vinny can miss point blank.

I also lament the drop of the Vindicare, but, in this edition he's still solid. Definitely deploy him in the tallest ruins possible. The threat of the Vindicare really changes how people play, even if he doesn't get to kill that many characters.


And Ratlings don't have a 72" range. Put the Vindicare high enough and he can see anything. And a larger footrpint is easier to hit. Remember, if you can see ONE model now, you can inflict casualties on the entire unit. So that 1 exposed Ratling in your 91 points of Ratlings can bring down the entire squad.

A Vindicare can also come out of hiding (read deepstrike) anywhere on the board in any of your movement phases so while they know where other snipers are and just stay out of line of sight you're opponent doesn't know where a vindicare will appear from. Eldar Rangers also have this trick. It means they're almost guaranteed to get Line of Sight on their target. I don't think it counts as a move either so no -1BS

Most sniper units have infiltrate effects to put them up board or on high ground.

True, however they need to be 36" away, whereas the Vindicare can be 72", making him more likely to survive the course of the battle.

Elysian Snipers seem like a good choice to me. As cheap as Ratlings, more survivable thanks to T3/W2. Don't have the Run benefit but they get more firepower too with their lasguns and frag grenades. Smaller footprint as they come in 3 model units. If you really want to, you can also Deep Strike them

Marmatag wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

Taffy17 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Rolsheen wrote:
Vindicare Assassin is my go to guy. Twice he's taken 6 wounds of a character in a single turn.
Just don't like that his accuracy has dropped, a Canadian sniper recently pulled of a 3km kill but Vinny can miss point blank.

I also lament the drop of the Vindicare, but, in this edition he's still solid. Definitely deploy him in the tallest ruins possible. The threat of the Vindicare really changes how people play, even if he doesn't get to kill that many characters.

And Ratlings don't have a 72" range. Put the Vindicare high enough and he can see anything. And a larger footrpint is easier to hit. Remember, if you can see ONE model now, you can inflict casualties on the entire unit. So that 1 exposed Ratling in your 91 points of Ratlings can bring down the entire squad.

A Vindicare can also come out of hiding (read deepstrike) anywhere on the board in any of your movement phases so while they know where other snipers are and just stay out of line of sight you're opponent doesn't know where a vindicare will appear from. Eldar Rangers also have this trick. It means they're almost guaranteed to get Line of Sight on their target. I don't think it counts as a move either so no -1BS

Most sniper units have infiltrate effects to put them up board or on high ground.

True, however they need to be 36" away, whereas the Vindicare can be 72", making him more likely to survive the course of the battle.

Most sniper units allow you to infiltrate during or at the end of the movement phase, but you can place a vindicare and eldar rangers in reserve and they can literally just show up anywhere 9" away from an enemy in any of your movement phases and take a shot at your opponents special snow flake.

Stylian_StHugh wrote:Elysian Snipers seem like a good choice to me. As cheap as Ratlings, more survivable thanks to T3/W2. Don't have the Run benefit but they get more firepower too with their lasguns and frag grenades. Smaller footprint as they come in 3 model units. If you really want to, you can also Deep Strike them

Deap Strike means they can do the same trick as the vindicare and eldar rangers as described above which is pretty cool!

Is their deepstrike considered movement?

iirc most snipers are heavy and would penalize you for setting up that way.

i guess its a bonus for not getting shot to gak first turn

I believe it is. Obviously it's a trade off between deployment flexibility and BS4+ Turn 1