Why Would You Ever Take a Bloodthirster?

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**Daedalus81**

Smite can be mitigated. It's not always so easy to target what you want if you're playing a competent player.

**Strg Alt**

Why Would You Ever Take a Bloodthirster?

Well, you field him, if you like the model. Back in the day this was reason enough. Nowadays your favourite big model has to be the latest cheese. Sigh...

**Galef**

There are 3 answers to this question:

--Casual play perspective:
Play what you want, the BT is a cool model and is good enough for his points. Even in "non-competitive" games, it is still a game, which by its very nature is competitive.
Don't fool yourself. It is not fun to put your model on the table just for it to do nothing but die. Luckily, the BT is perfectly viable and has decent damage AND has 3 variants to choose from

--Competitive, yet theme-based perspective:
You play the BT because you are a Khorne player pure and simple. You want to be competitive, but you restrict yourself to a theme because you get more out of the game that way.

--Competitive no-theme (or a mixed theme) required
There is no reason to take a BT. Magnus is better for his points. Period
The same goes for a Lord of Change or Fateweaver. Just take Magnus and a bunch of Daemon Princes instead.
If you really need to stick to a theme and like the BT model, just paint his wings blue and call him an "Exalted BloodThirster" who can deny psychic powers like Flesh Hounds and doesn't actually cast powers, but uses Rage to "empower" nearby units or himself. The super-Smite can just represent the BT throwing warp-energy fire balls, or eye lasers, or pick a random thing chaos beings are capable of.
It's exactly the same as Imperial Guard Orders back in the day: roll 2 dice, get a bonus. We just call what Magnus does "psychic" powers

Personally, I made some slight modifications to the new LoC model (bigger phoenix head to make him taller, back mounted book, redish colored body, etc). I use the Magnus rules to represent an Exalted LoC similar to the named Forge World Daemon Lord.

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**mrhappyface**

Galef wrote:
Personally, I made some slight modifications to the new LoC model (bigger phoenix head to make him taller, back mounted book, redish colored body, etc). I use the Magnus rules to represent an Exalted LoC similar to the named Forge World Daemon Lord.

Pics?

**Galef**

mrhappyface wrote:
Galef wrote:
Personally, I made some slight modifications to the new LoC model (bigger phoenix head to make him taller, back mounted book, redish colored body, etc). I use the Magnus rules to represent an Exalted LoC similar to the named Forge World Daemon Lord.

Pics?

I need to take more pics as I have finished the model now, but here is a work in progress:
http://glennsgwmodels.blogspot.com/2017/04/new-lord-of-change-wip-and-various.html

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**mrhappyface**

Galef wrote:
mrhappyface wrote:
Galef wrote:
Personally, I made some slight modifications to the new LoC model (bigger phoenix head to make him taller, back mounted book, redish colored body, etc). I use the Magnus rules to represent an Exalted LoC similar to the named Forge World Daemon Lord.

Pics?

I need to take more pics as I have finished the model now, but here is a work in progress:
http://glennsgwmodels.blogspot.com/2017/04/new-lord-of-change-wip-and-various.html

-

Very nice!

**Breng77**

-Magnus is a Lord of War, so he takes up an entire detachment on his own and gives you no command points, it also means you must buy an additional HQ or 2 along with him to fill out other detachments, which to some extent increases his cost. IF you were already taking other HQ choices, this is less important, but if the BT was unlocking a detachment on his own it is relevant.

-Bloodthirster has more synergy with Khorne Daemon armies, with his bubble. Magnus' psychic powers cannot effect khorne daemons, so would only be used on himself or enemies. If you are playing Khorne mixed with CSM and Daemons then Magnus gains in this area as his powers no effect things like Berzerkers, which the thirster does not effect.

-Blood thirsters have more upside on their damage dealing (D6 vs flat 3), magnus is more consistent. Especially on the charge (+1 S and A) for the blood thristers.

-Smite is the big swing for Magnus, his average combat damage is pretty much equal to the thirsters but he adds an average of almost 5 smite wounds each turn, the thirster shooting attacks by comparison don't add nearly as much

**Galef**

Magnus is also affected by the Changeling, so asuming you are taking a mixed army that has Tzeentch Daemons, Magnus will be harder to kill in the first turn or 2.

**Daedalus81**

Breng77 wrote:
-Magnus is a Lord of War, so he takes up an entire detachment on his own and gives you no command points, it also means you must buy an additional HQ or 2 along with him to fill out other detachments, which to some extent increases his cost. IF you were already taking other HQ choices, this is less important, but if the BT was unlocking a detachment on his own it is relevant.

This is a big one.

-Smite is the big swing for Magnus, his average combat damage is pretty much equal to the thirsters but he adds an average of almost 5 smite wounds each turn, the thirster shooting attacks by comparison don't add nearly as much

The true weighted average is 6.9. Still, it isn't always easy to hit what you want with it and to do so puts you in a sometimes compromising position. Some people fear Magnus more than they should and avoid targeting him for that reason.

**Xenomancers**

Magnus is easily 150-200 points under-costed. So there is that.

**Daedalus81**

Xenomancers wrote:
Magnus is easily 150-200 points under-costed. So there is that.

And you base this on what?

**lindsay40k**

Daedalus81 wrote:
Breng77 wrote:
-Magnus is a Lord of War, so he takes up an entire detachment on his own and gives you no command points, it also means you must buy an additional HQ or 2 along with him to fill out other detachments, which to some extent increases his cost. IF you were already taking other HQ choices, this is less important, but if the BT was unlocking a detachment on his own it is relevant.

This is a big one.

-Smite is the big swing for Magnus, his average combat damage is pretty much equal to the thirsters but he adds an average of almost 5 smite wounds each turn, the thirster shooting attacks by comparison don't add nearly as much

The true weighted average is 6.9. Still, it isn't always easy to hit what you want with it and to do so puts you in a sometimes compromising position. Some people fear Magnus more than they should and avoid targeting him for that reason.

My calculations for Magnus's average Smite DPT concurs with nearly 5 (4.861), what's this true weighted average business? In practice, it's going to be less than that, as he's going to be getting in the enemy's face and therefore be within DTW range. +2 helps but my quick calculations* indicate that he'll be losing EDIT almost one Smite WPT to DTW - and that's before the opponent uses CPs to reroll the lowest score (which TBF Magnus is not unlikely to also do to attempt to get 2D6MW). So, perhaps not quite as big a lead on the ranged output of the whipthirsters.

*two players both roll 2D6, with 1,296 possible results. In 282 instances, the opponent beats Magnus's score +2. 21.76% DTW success rate, times 4.861 equals 1.0577 denied Smite MW per turn - this does not take into account the higher damage of the harder to dispel 10+ rolls, so the actual denied WPT is lower

**Daedalus81**

lindsay40k wrote:

My calculations for Magnus's average Smite DPT concurs with nearly 5 (4.861), what's this true weighted average business? In practice, it's going to be less than that, as he's going to be getting in the enemy's face and therefore be within DTW range. +2 helps but my quick calculations indicate that he'll be losing 0.42 Smite WPT to DTW - and that's before the opponent uses CPs to reroll the lowest score (which TBF Magnus is not unlikely to also do to attempt to get 2D6MW).

Sorry - I went a little derp.

The average is 4.94.

It's true that weirdboys give Magnus the biggest ulcer.

**sfshilo**

Lancelot185 wrote:
So, you're playing Khorne and you think you might take a Bloodthirster (whatever variant), because you think he's quick, pretty tough and meaty and can do a lot of damage. He'll also help to draw the fire from the rest of your army. But, the problem is, there's a guy that does everything that a Bloodthirster does - and he does it better. Hello, Magnus:

Movement: Magnus moves 4 inches further, and can warptime himself very easily.
Psychic: The Bloodthirster does absolutely nothing in this phase (thanks, Khorne). Whereas Magnus just dominates it. You can smite for d6 or 2d6 mortal wounds, you can prescience left, right and center, and you can warptime your best melee unit right into the enemies face. And you deny easier than anyone else.
Aura: Magnus gives rerolls of 1 to hit and for invulns, whilst the thirster gives a smaller bubble of leadership 10 (which can be useful, but is nonetheless inferior to Magnus').
Close Combat: The most amusing part, given Khornes hard on for melee. Magnus has a 1/36 chance to miss with his 6 attacks, whereas the thirster has a 1/6 chance. Additionally, Magnus is S16, giving you the all-important 2's to wound T8 (which is the highest toughness you're likely to see in most games), whilst the strongest thirster is only S14 (S15 on the charge - which is effectively useless). Both are ap-4. The only thing going for the thirster is it's d6 damage (but, given that less hit and less may wound, you could end up with pretty similar results (also, factor in the damage from smite to see who's doing more work)).
Durability: Magnus has 2 more wounds and a 4+ invulnv, rerolling ones. Whilst the thirster has a 5+ invuln.
Shooting: The hardest hitting thirster doesn't have any shooting, like Magnus. Whilst the other two do have some ranged potential, it's a dire trade-off compared to Magnus' psychic phase.
Cost: Magnus is 75 pts more - which is a bargain for how much more he brings to the table. Additionally, if you're gonna fork out 340 pts for a thirster, then you're not gunna bat an eye at 415 pts.

Overrall, Magnus is a much better force multiplier that adds far more versatility to your list than a Bloodthirster, and can do exactly the same thing with turn one charges from warptime etc (although you may not want to suicide him into the enemy line until he's supported by others).

BT is 75 points cheaper and has a varient thag can shoot in/into close combat.

**Venerable Ironclad**

Also I think its worth mentioning, 75 pts is nothing to scoff at. Lets put 75 pts into some context, (Please excuse me but I'm going to be using examples from imperial marines because its what I own, if these numbers are drastically dissimilar feel free to call me out) 75 pts can get you a tactial squad with some special or heavy weapon, a rhino, or as many as 3 lascannon divided among units you already have. Now none of these are neccarlly huge game changers but I think they can more than make up the difference between Magnus an a Bloodthirster.

**Breng77**

Venerable Ironclad wrote:
Also I think its worth mentioning, 75 pts is nothing to scoff at. Lets put 75 pts into some context, (Please excuse me but I'm going to be using examples from imperial marines because its what I own, if these numbers are drastically dissimilar feel free to call me out) 75 pts can get you a tactial squad with some special or heavy weapon, a rhino, or as many as 3 lascannon divided among units you already have. Now none of these are neccarlly huge game changers but I think they can more than make up the difference between Magnus an a Bloodthirster.

In the same Vein it is worth noting that it may be even more than 75 points, depending on what HQ choices you are taking, and whether you would take if you did not need them to fill a slot.

SO if you are running a Battalion Detachment and Magnus. You need to pay for 2 HQ and Magnus, with a thirster you only need to pay for 1 HQ and the Thirster. Now if you were already going to take 2 additional HQs this is a non-issue, but if not it is more like a 150 point difference, and it limits your options, as 2 HQ + thirster could unlock a second detachment gaining more CP.