Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Unless I misremember, Iskandar Khayon, as the in-universe narrator of Talon of Horus (and thus not necessarily reliable), quite specifically states that Abaddon made all the traitor Primarchs bend the knee to him.

Quite how the armless one achieved this remains for future novels to tell (or not).

Animus wrote:

 Ketara wrote:

Animus wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
The Primarchs are all coming back one after another. Gulliman is back, and we have the fallen Primarches stirring into action. Magnus, Motarion, I am sure they will introduce the rest eventually.

However, can you see the fallen Primarchs bowing down to Abaddon? The guy isn't even a fellow Primarch. He is a "son" of one of their brothers. Furthermore, all or most of them have now ascended into daemonhood and gained even more power. Look at Magnus. Can you see any of the fallen Primarchs even treating Abaddon as an equal? If the Chaos gods wants some champion to rise that will lead all of the various chaos factions together the way Horus did, they would either need to give Abaddon a ridiculous power up or find someone else. Or at the very least, Abaddon would need to personally meet and best/defeat/cowl every single one of the Daemon Primarchs that he wants to join him.

As it is, I think just about all of the fallen Primarchs would refuse to bow down to Abaddon.

They already bowed to him. Abaddon is Warmaster and favoured of the Gods.

Did you literally not bother reading the thread? Magnus refused and Alpharius is unknown.

Magnus refused, but was broken before Abaddon and made to bow. Alpharius is irrelevant.

Alpharus is proably dead.Whatever master plan the AL where running regarding the heresy it's proably in shambles by now.

After the Canticle City came the Illumination, when we battled those who would not swear allegiance to the Warmaster and sought to end our rise. During that era we traversed the Empire of the Eye, ending the Legion Wars with our ascendance above the Nine, and one by one the primarchs bowed before Abaddon. Some willingly, some only grudgingly, and one who had to be brought to his knees. But all of them bowed in the end: Lorgar, Perturabo, Fulgrim, Angron, my father Magnus... even Mortarion, who came closest of all to slaying us through his holy plagues.

The Thousand Sons know me as Khayon the Black, for my sins against our bloodline. My Warmaster’s forces name me Kingbreaker – the mage who brought Magnus the Red to his knees.

It happens, as per Talon of Horus. Some evidently resist, or at least give them challenges (Mortarion) and others are likely bribed, as per the Black Legion codex. The BL Codex has a slightly different take, where Abaddon basically bribes all of them and Magnus refuses to see them, so we're free to interpret it as we will.

 ProwlerPC wrote:
Daemons bleed like us? I suppose with Khorne being the blood god and all. Failbaddon sending them back to the warp in a spectacle of blood and death confirms it.....I suppose. Oh GeeDubs.

Daemons bleed ichor, it's been a long established part of the fluff.

Animus wrote:


Magnus refused, but was broken before Abaddon and made to bow. Alpharius is irrelevant.

Can I get a source on Magnus please being 'broken' please? If you're referring to the Talon of Horus quote up above, it's been thrashed out that its invalid as representing the state of affairs. Why? Because it's a story told by one of Abby's followers. He could be lying, or indeed have been lied to himself by Abby (who would doubtless be spreading stories to make himself sound more important and tough than he is). Therefore it is overruled by the more objective galaxy spanning descriptions (which are included in the Black Legion codex).

Otherwise we have to do silly things like take what one Radical Inquisitor said in Eisenhorn about the nature of Chaos ahead of what's in the opening of the Chaos codex. Or a rambling of Ciaphas Cain above what's in the Imperial Guard codex. And so on.

With regards to Alpharius, he's hardly irrelevant if he's alive. He's still a Primarch.

 Ketara wrote:

Animus wrote:


Magnus refused, but was broken before Abaddon and made to bow. Alpharius is irrelevant.

Can I get a source on Magnus please being 'broken' please? If you're referring to the Talon of Horus quote up above, it's been thrashed out that its invalid as representing the state of affairs. Why? Because it's a story told by one of Abby's followers. He could be lying, or indeed have been lied to himself by Abby (who would doubtless be spreading stories to make himself sound more important and tough than he is). Therefore it is overruled by the more objective galaxy spanning descriptions (which are included in the Black Legion codex).

Otherwise we have to do silly things like take what one Radical Inquisitor said in Eisenhorn about the nature of Chaos ahead of what's in the opening of the Chaos codex. Or a rambling of Ciaphas Cain above what's in the Imperial Guard codex. And so on.

With regards to Alpharius, he's hardly irrelevant if he's alive. He's still a Primarch.

You can not believe it if you want, but Khayon has no particular reason to lie about breaking Magnus. It wouldn't be the first time Maggie has had his ass kicked either. ADB wrote both Talon of Horus and the Black Legion supplement.
Alpharius is dead. Even if Omegon is still alive he's irrelevant by dint of covering his Legion in so much secrecy. Every Alpha Legion warband has it's own agenda and allegiances.

 Ketara wrote:

Animus wrote:


Magnus refused, but was broken before Abaddon and made to bow. Alpharius is irrelevant.

Can I get a source on Magnus please being 'broken' please? If you're referring to the Talon of Horus quote up above, it's been thrashed out that its invalid as representing the state of affairs. Why? Because it's a story told by one of Abby's followers. He could be lying, or indeed have been lied to himself by Abby (who would doubtless be spreading stories to make himself sound more important and tough than he is). Therefore it is overruled by the more objective galaxy spanning descriptions (which are included in the Black Legion codex).




Otherwise we have to do silly things like take what one Radical Inquisitor said in Eisenhorn about the nature of Chaos ahead of what's in the opening of the Chaos codex. Or a rambling of Ciaphas Cain above what's in the Imperial Guard codex. And so on.

With regards to Alpharius, he's hardly irrelevant if he's alive. He's still a Primarch.

You have completely missed the point of talon of Horus, kayon real weapon is the TRUTH, and no it hasn't been thrashed out that he can't be trusted because "chaos".

You may not like it, but each of the daemon primarchs has been forced in some manner to work for abbadon

Animus wrote:

You can not believe it if you want, but Khayon has no particular reason to lie about breaking Magnus.

To make him and Abbadon seem more badass than they are? To spread rumours to encourage more people to come and join the Black Legion, believing they're the most powerful faction? Because he's a pathological liar? To encourage other Thousand Sons traitors to swear fealty or do their bidding by saying they can protect them against Magnus? Because a plot by Tzeentch which takes place in the future requires someone to believe Magnus had his arse kicked? Because Magnus wiped their brains into thinking that was what happened for some nefarious purpose of his own? I could go on all day, seriously. It's not difficult to apply a modicum of imagination as to why a follower of the Chaos Gods could lie.

It wouldn't be the first time Maggie has had his ass kicked either. ADB wrote both Talon of Horus and the Black Legion supplement.

It's nothing with whether or not Maggie could get his arse kicked, it's to do with priority of fluff. If the same writer did both novel and supplement, then that really is the proof in the pudding right there, on account of the fact that there's no issues of retcons or crossed wires. The Black Legion supplement, by any reasonable analysis, immediately takes priority. It's objectively 'galaxy-perspective' written (as opposed to viewed through the subjective filter of a character's perspective), and in the main codex as opposed to a novel (which are quite frequently overridden by main rulebooks).

So no actually. Not so much a question of belief as established fact.You are of course, free to believe the lunatic rantings of a Chaos renegade above the impartial universe setting army rulebook writing if you like though.

Yeah, some people simply don't want to buy the newer fluff, laid down in Codex BL and the new rulebook, which informs us, that the 13th black crusade was basically successful - Abbi destroyed all the Pylons holding back the warp and Magnus doing sorcery stuff, together they created the Cicatrix maledictum.
I guess it will be interesting to see how Mortarions actions are described in the new DG codex, since he'll be one of the Primarchs that were "bribed" by Abbi, unlike Magnus who seemingly did stuff on his own.

 Formosa wrote:
[
You have completely missed the point of talon of Horus, kayon real weapon is the TRUTH

The words of anyone who insists that they have the TRUTH in capital letters are immediately suspect. It's a bit like people who use five exclamation marks.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Yeah, some people simply don't want to buy the newer fluff, laid down in Codex BL and the new rulebook, which informs us, that the 13th black crusade was basically successful - Abbi destroyed all the Pylons holding back the warp and Magnus doing sorcery stuff, together they created the Cicatrix maledictum.
I guess it will be interesting to see how Mortarions actions are described in the new DG codex, since he'll be one of the Primarchs that were "bribed" by Abbi, unlike Magnus who seemingly did stuff on his own.

Working independently in concert for the furtherance of the goals of Chaos is a separate kettle of fish to physically kicking Magnus' arse into submission.

 Ketara wrote:
To make him and Abbadon seem more badass than they are? To spread rumours to encourage more people to come and join the Black Legion, believing they're the most powerful faction? To encourage other Thousand Sons traitors to swear fealty or do their bidding by saying they can protect them against Magnus? I could go on all day. It's not difficult to apply a modicum of imagination as to why a follower of the Chaos Gods could lie.

Except it's an internal monologue. It's not presented as a boast.

 Ketara wrote:

If the same writer did both novel and supplement, then that really is the proof in the pudding right there, on account of the fact that there's no issues of retcons or crossed wires. The Black Legion supplement, by any reasonable analysis, immediately takes priority. It's objectively 'galaxy-perspective' written (as opposed to viewed through the subjective filter of a character's perspective), and in the main codex as opposed to a novel (which are quite frequently overridden by main rulebooks).

The novel is newer so takes priority, especially in the case of having the same author. But that's all irrelevant because the two are not actually at odds. The Black Legion supplements only says Magnus refused an audience with Abaddon. That doesn't exclude him from getting forced to kneel before him at some point in time.

BrianDavion wrote:

 TapedTempest wrote:
I believe any of Daemon Primarchs would kill Abaddon and absorb the Black Legion before obeying him in any way.

alright, now what if they tried... and failed?

IIRC they did try.

After the failure of the HH the traitor legions, lead by the Emperor's Children, turned on the Sons of Horus. Abaddon rallied the survivors and rejected Horus as an idol to create the Black Legion, absorbing a good chunk of marines from the legions that previously were trying to kill them.

The other legions have largely continued to stagnate and / or splinter, with only a few 'mortal' examples (Ahriman, Typhus, etc) breaking the mould (this is a double pun on both the rubric and on decay, sorry) to be successful out in realspace.

 Lord Fishface wrote:
Quite how the armless one achieved this remains for future novels to tell (or not).

Probably Abaddon dropped his arms, and misunderstood gents that the traitor Primarchs are, they bent over to recover Abaddon's missing limbs for The WanARMaster?

Well, the Black Mace relic from our last codex was said to have been blessed/cursed by all the daemon Primarchs... Thats where it gets its aptly named special rule from, Cursed
.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ah, just looked it up, no mention of Abbadon... I had just always assumed he was responsible, but there isn't any note of it...

I've always seen it that Chaos needs the mortal champions.

An Angron would appear to be far more powerful than a Kharn, as an example. But, during the first war of Armageddon, all of the demons the warp could spawn were useless without mortals to build the totems, make the sacrifices, and generally destabilize reality enough to allow the greater demons into our world. Otherwise, reality blinks, and poof, the whole demon army is gone.

Now, we've been told that all of these "failed" crusades were really a long strategy by Abaddon and the fell powers to weaken the various pylon worlds that held back the eye of terror, culminating in the destruction of Cadia. Now the warp has burned a gash across the whole galaxy, and the demon primarchs can at last enter real space without having to waste their legion making focal points to sustain the demons.

In a way, Abbadon has done the primarch's bidding. In another, they are serving his goals. In the end, they all serve the same masters.

Animus wrote:
Alpharius is irrelevant.

That's exactly what he wants you to believe.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
[From Mortarion, Primarch of the Death Guard, he earned the putrescent embrace of Nurgle in exchange for the Hand of Darkness. The decaying Daemon lord promised to use the ancient artefact to craft a plague that would stir the rotting dead to life, provided the Warmaster would see it spread among the stars.

Presumably this is the source of the Poxwalker plague.

 TapedTempest wrote:
, I'd go as far as to say a Chaos civil war could start.

That's just status quo.

Animus wrote:

 Ketara wrote:

Animus wrote:


Magnus refused, but was broken before Abaddon and made to bow. Alpharius is irrelevant.

Can I get a source on Magnus please being 'broken' please? If you're referring to the Talon of Horus quote up above, it's been thrashed out that its invalid as representing the state of affairs. Why? Because it's a story told by one of Abby's followers. He could be lying, or indeed have been lied to himself by Abby (who would doubtless be spreading stories to make himself sound more important and tough than he is). Therefore it is overruled by the more objective galaxy spanning descriptions (which are included in the Black Legion codex).

Otherwise we have to do silly things like take what one Radical Inquisitor said in Eisenhorn about the nature of Chaos ahead of what's in the opening of the Chaos codex. Or a rambling of Ciaphas Cain above what's in the Imperial Guard codex. And so on.

With regards to Alpharius, he's hardly irrelevant if he's alive. He's still a Primarch.

You can not believe it if you want, but Khayon has no particular reason to lie about breaking Magnus. It wouldn't be the first time Maggie has had his ass kicked either. ADB wrote both Talon of Horus and the Black Legion supplement.
Alpharius is dead. Even if Omegon is still alive he's irrelevant by dint of covering his Legion in so much secrecy. Every Alpha Legion warband has it's own agenda and allegiances.

Khayon is an author insert mary sue of the highest order and really should be disregarded. He exists in those stories and only those stories and has no place outside them and so his supposed 'actions' and beliefs are irrelevant to the setting as a whole as he doesn't exist in it.

Magnus refused Abbadon and is doing his own thing.

Abbadon is, so far, on the back bench while GW pushes the primarchs.