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2 stormravens are enough to cause a considerable amount of havoc. My buddy plays grey knights. He had 2 + draigo teleporting around. Even with 2 storm gunships with missiles, a 4 las pred and a 4 las dev squad, I could only bring one down before he started deleting units. Draigo makes 2 like 4. He's talking about bringing 3 from now on.
The only reason I brought one down is I seized. When he has turn 1 I have almost no chance.
Stormravens are a problem right now. It's hard to guess how they'll shake out in the long term, but something needs to happen.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/16 21:08:46
3orangewhips wrote: 2 stormravens are enough to cause a considerable amount of havoc. My buddy plays grey knights. He had 2 + draigo teleporting around. Even with 2 storm gunships with missiles, a 4 las pred and a 4 las dev squad, I could only bring one down before he started deleting units. Draigo makes 2 like 4. He's talking about bringing 3 from now on.
The only reason I brought one down is I seized. When he has turn 1 I have almost no chance.
Stormravens are a problem right now. It's hard to guess how they'll shake out in the long term, but something needs to happen.
Pretty bare anecdotal example. What were the lists involved/points level?
Guessing for 'storm gunships' you meant Stormtalon Gunships w/skyhammer missiles? Ironically, the skyhammer missile is just as bad/useless as the Icarus Autocannon is when it comes to killing Stormravens. Devastator Squads also have pretty mediocre survivability compared to vehicles.
For Eldar Hemlocks are pretty good. They can get in close and smite the Raven, and their 2d3 S10 AP-4 D2 auto hitting guns that don't degrade when shot are pretty nasty. A couple of these can also put the hurt on any ground target.
The Tau Commander with 4 fusion blasters is pretty good. Hits on threes re-rolling ones with only one markerlight hit and wounds on threes too. Outside of Melta range that's likely 2d6 damage, inside it's take the best result from each of two pairs of 2d6s. A little luck and you can land three, and the storm raven has a good chance of being toasted.
3orangewhips wrote: 2 stormravens are enough to cause a considerable amount of havoc. My buddy plays grey knights. He had 2 + draigo teleporting around. Even with 2 storm gunships with missiles, a 4 las pred and a 4 las dev squad, I could only bring one down before he started deleting units. Draigo makes 2 like 4. He's talking about bringing 3 from now on.
The only reason I brought one down is I seized. When he has turn 1 I have almost no chance.
Stormravens are a problem right now. It's hard to guess how they'll shake out in the long term, but something needs to happen.
Pretty bare anecdotal example. What were the lists involved/points level?
Guessing for 'storm gunships' you meant Stormtalon Gunships w/skyhammer missiles? Ironically, the skyhammer missile is just as bad/useless as the Icarus Autocannon is when it comes to killing Stormravens. Devastator Squads also have pretty mediocre survivability compared to vehicles.
Is it Gate w/Draigo causing you problems?
Yeah, I can't keep all the storms straight. They were indeed Stormtalons.
It's anecdotal because it is, in fact, an anecdote.
Draigo has caused nothing but problems since 5th edition.
We were playing 1500 pts. I had played 2 SM lists, once with tacticals and one with intercessors. The intercessor list had the 2 gunships, 4xlas pred, 1 squad of 4xlas devs and 10 hellblasters, plus a captain, techmarine and apocathary. The second list was Bubba G and a libbie and mostly tacticals with 4 las devs and 2 gunships.
He played grey knights with Draigo 2x5 purifiers (I believe), a librarian, a dreadknight and 2 assassins (one list had 2 sniper assassins and one had the 8 attacks on the charge assassins).
If I don't tailor my list to take out flyers + withstand an raven alpha strike I have 0 chance.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/17 04:12:11
My superheavy company has had success. Each Stormhammer can, on average, down a flyer a turn. It has fewer drops than the aircraft and goes first, and has enough wounds and a high enough toughness that the aircraft cannot destroy them with only a single volley - so six aircraft will be destroyed in 2 shooting phases with little trouble.
For maths: Each tank has: 4 Lascannons one Stormhammer cannon (2d6 pick the highest, Str 9 AP-3 1d6 damage, re-roll any/all To Hit rolls - this is a big air defense cannon because of the re-rolls) one Twin Battlecannon 4 Heavy Bolters
Other benefit is the hulls of the vehicles are large enough to keep enemy infantry more than 3" from the center of an objective even when in base to base with the tank, allowing them to fare better than the storm ravens in some objective scenarios as well.
EDIT:
Oh, no Forge World. Well, any of the IG superheavies should really work - they've got quite a few bullets to put up, are fewer drops, and tend to have high damage values on the weapons that get through the to-hit and save rolls.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/07/17 04:21:28
I feel like for Dark Angels, Azrael and a Primaris Lieutenant next to a bunch of Dreads, Ven Dreads, or Las Predators (in some combination) could reliably drop one SR per turn, perhaps 2, and with Azrael's 4++ bubble would be reasonably well protected. Throw in a Darkshroud for -1 to hit any of those units as well.
My armies (re-counted and updated on 11/1/23, including modeled wargear options):
Dark Angels: ~15000 Astra Militarum: ~1200 | Adeptus Custodes: ~1900 | Imperial Knights: ~2000 | Sisters of Battle: ~3500 | Leagues of Votann: ~1200 | Tyranids: ~2600 | Stormcast Eternals: ~5000
Check out my P&M Blogs: ZergSmasher's P&M Blog | Imperial Knights blog | Board Games blog | Total models painted in 2023: 40 | Total models painted in 2024: 12 | Current main painting project: Dark Angels
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3orangewhips wrote: 2 stormravens are enough to cause a considerable amount of havoc. My buddy plays grey knights. He had 2 + draigo teleporting around. Even with 2 storm gunships with missiles, a 4 las pred and a 4 las dev squad, I could only bring one down before he started deleting units. Draigo makes 2 like 4. He's talking about bringing 3 from now on.
The only reason I brought one down is I seized. When he has turn 1 I have almost no chance.
Stormravens are a problem right now. It's hard to guess how they'll shake out in the long term, but something needs to happen.
Pretty bare anecdotal example. What were the lists involved/points level?
Guessing for 'storm gunships' you meant Stormtalon Gunships w/skyhammer missiles? Ironically, the skyhammer missile is just as bad/useless as the Icarus Autocannon is when it comes to killing Stormravens. Devastator Squads also have pretty mediocre survivability compared to vehicles.
Is it Gate w/Draigo causing you problems?
Yeah, I can't keep all the storms straight. They were indeed Stormtalons.
It's anecdotal because it is, in fact, an anecdote.
Draigo has caused nothing but problems since 5th edition.
We were playing 1500 pts. I had played 2 SM lists, once with tacticals and one with intercessors. The intercessor list had the 2 gunships, 4xlas pred, 1 squad of 4xlas devs and 10 hellblasters, plus a captain, techmarine and apocathary. The second list was Bubba G and a libbie and mostly tacticals with 4 las devs and 2 gunships.
He played grey knights with Draigo 2x5 purifiers (I believe), a librarian, a dreadknight and 2 assassins (one list had 2 sniper assassins and one had the 8 attacks on the charge assassins).
If I don't tailor my list to take out flyers + withstand an raven alpha strike I have 0 chance.
Not that I'm a pro player or anything; I'm just curious if you might have more luck with something like:
3orangewhips wrote: 2 stormravens are enough to cause a considerable amount of havoc. My buddy plays grey knights. He had 2 + draigo teleporting around. Even with 2 storm gunships with missiles, a 4 las pred and a 4 las dev squad, I could only bring one down before he started deleting units. Draigo makes 2 like 4. He's talking about bringing 3 from now on.
The only reason I brought one down is I seized. When he has turn 1 I have almost no chance.
Stormravens are a problem right now. It's hard to guess how they'll shake out in the long term, but something needs to happen.
Pretty bare anecdotal example. What were the lists involved/points level?
Guessing for 'storm gunships' you meant Stormtalon Gunships w/skyhammer missiles? Ironically, the skyhammer missile is just as bad/useless as the Icarus Autocannon is when it comes to killing Stormravens. Devastator Squads also have pretty mediocre survivability compared to vehicles.
Is it Gate w/Draigo causing you problems?
Competive lists are Girlyman and Stormraven spam.
Before that they were Girlyman, a Primaris lieutenant and a ton of twin assault cannon razorbacks in a parking lot death star.
Re-roll to hit and wound. Spamming hundreds of shots per round.
Ravens will only get worse with the new Ultramarine chapter tactics that let them fall back and shoot (so no locking them down for a turn with charges from fliers).
They need a serious points nerf, or weapons nerf or changes to the rules for them.
1 Raven spits out 12 assault cannon shots, 24 bolter shots, and 8 from the heavy bolters. 44 shots per turn (re-roll misses and wounds) is nuts. They delete whole units each turn.
My thinking is they remove area buffs to fliers (no re-rolls from Girlyman or the Lt) and increase points.
Should also be a tournament rule of 'no more than 2 of any unit unless it's a troop choice' or something like that to stop spam.
There is nothing wrong or imbalanced about the storm raven. There is everything wrong with the flier formations. Limited to 2 fliers total, its fine. Beyond that it just gets stupid. The flyer formations need more limits
Chrysen wrote: There is nothing wrong or imbalanced about the storm raven. There is everything wrong with the flier formations. Limited to 2 fliers total, its fine. Beyond that it just gets stupid. The flyer formations need more limits
I don't agree with that for two reasons:
1. No other flyer being spammed via the flyer detachment has been a problem.
2. Even if you put restrictions on the flyer detachment, people can still spam Stormravens via the auxilery detachment.
The problem is the flyer not the detachment.
Ghorros wrote: The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
Marmatag wrote: All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
Chrysen wrote: There is nothing wrong or imbalanced about the storm raven. There is everything wrong with the flier formations. Limited to 2 fliers total, its fine. Beyond that it just gets stupid. The flyer formations need more limits
I don't agree with that for two reasons:
1. No other flyer being spammed via the flyer detachment has been a problem.
2. Even if you put restrictions on the flyer detachment, people can still spam Stormravens via the auxilery detachment.
The problem is the flyer not the detachment.
The problem is with both really.
Limiting spam somewhat (and enouraging troops) should be the meta. Tournament rules are supposed to limit to 3 detachments (of any kind) as is for 2000 points; I personally feel that should change with additional limits imposed, AND the Stormraven get a nerf (in points and in rules).
Ravens will only get worse with the new Ultramarine chapter tactics that let them fall back and shoot (so no locking them down for a turn with charges from fliers).
Chapter tactics only affect Infantry, Bikes and Dreads. Stormravens are getting no help there.
Ravens will only get worse with the new Ultramarine chapter tactics that let them fall back and shoot (so no locking them down for a turn with charges from fliers).
Chapter tactics only affect Infantry, Bikes and Dreads. Stormravens are getting no help there.
Also, what stops Ravens from falling back and firing now anyway? They have the fly keyword.
Ghorros wrote: The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
Marmatag wrote: All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
Also the big advantage of 8th edition is that if they are proved to be too good, we're not stuck forever with the OPness. They will have their points upped in Chapter Approved.
Hell, we may find their points changed in the SM Codex about to come out !
Ravens will only get worse with the new Ultramarine chapter tactics that let them fall back and shoot (so no locking them down for a turn with charges from fliers).
Chapter tactics only affect Infantry, Bikes and Dreads. Stormravens are getting no help there.
Also, what stops Ravens from falling back and firing now anyway? They have the fly keyword.
Ravens will only get worse with the new Ultramarine chapter tactics that let them fall back and shoot (so no locking them down for a turn with charges from fliers).
Chapter tactics only affect Infantry, Bikes and Dreads. Stormravens are getting no help there.
Also, what stops Ravens from falling back and firing now anyway? They have the fly keyword.
They can fall back, but they cant shoot.
Anything with the fly keyword can fall back and shoot.
Ghorros wrote: The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
Marmatag wrote: All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
Ravens will only get worse with the new Ultramarine chapter tactics that let them fall back and shoot (so no locking them down for a turn with charges from fliers).
Chapter tactics only affect Infantry, Bikes and Dreads. Stormravens are getting no help there.
Also, what stops Ravens from falling back and firing now anyway? They have the fly keyword.
They can fall back, but they cant shoot.
Anything with the fly keyword can fall back and shoot.
Yeah, my bad.
You cant lock them in CC by surrounding them (say with jump pack troops or similar) either, as they can fly over intervening models and terrain.
Melee isnt the way to go.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Maybe a lascannon heavy force (squeeze in as many as you can) with to hit and to wound re-rolls?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/17 08:57:16
i dont think ETC lists are public yet
edit: i saw them
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/17 11:03:28
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Deploy malanthrope + 6 Hive tyrants near 6 tyrant guards (or pick the unit with 4 depending on the deployment) Take incoming fire.
First tyranid turn drop the other tyrant guard with tyrannocyte mid-field and cast catalyst on them. All Hive tyrants fly within 3 inch of these tyrant guards and do their thing. Smite + deathspitters + assault can take at least one down. This could tip the balance mid-game.
6 flying hive tyrants with deathspitters are still nice against other armies.
Unit1126PLL wrote: My superheavy company has had success. Each Stormhammer can, on average, down a flyer a turn. It has fewer drops than the aircraft and goes first, and has enough wounds and a high enough toughness that the aircraft cannot destroy them with only a single volley - so six aircraft will be destroyed in 2 shooting phases with little trouble.
For maths: Each tank has:
4 Lascannons
one Stormhammer cannon (2d6 pick the highest, Str 9 AP-3 1d6 damage, re-roll any/all To Hit rolls - this is a big air defense cannon because of the re-rolls)
one Twin Battlecannon
4 Heavy Bolters
Other benefit is the hulls of the vehicles are large enough to keep enemy infantry more than 3" from the center of an objective even when in base to base with the tank, allowing them to fare better than the storm ravens in some objective scenarios as well.
EDIT:
Oh, no Forge World. Well, any of the IG superheavies should really work - they've got quite a few bullets to put up, are fewer drops, and tend to have high damage values on the weapons that get through the to-hit and save rolls.
Yeah me and my buddy got a 4 drop IG list, with the stormlord packed with lascannon & mortar HWT, 2x vindicators packed with scion plasma and 78 conscripts. Nasty.
Would go first against most, and has enough dakka to down a couple of flyers a turn
We might see less of these lists now chapter tactics are leaked and just around the corner.
As for counters though, i did think of a 2k list with 6 hydras, 2 or 3 manticores, 2 hellhounds and a load of troops supported by Yarrick and Harker.
Most raven spam lists only have 2 or 3 with multi meltas, so i'd expect only a couple of hydras to die first turn (maybe a tech priest or 2 in support as well). After that it's just a simple matter of putting out the shots to take down a 2 ravens a turn.
Having fought the stormraven spam list with my marines, I went first and was able to shoot one down and damage another. They then proceeded to kill my sicaran and dreadnought. I would kill another in turn 2 and then would fail to kill anything else till the last turn of the game where I was down to almost nothing.
They do so much damage and are so fast. The only thing I took away from that game is they struggled to hurt my land raider. So maybe the answer is Guilliman with the lascannon land raider (excelsior?). Otherwise, using ITC rules, I just hide all my stuff in ruins on the first floor. If points are not going to be adjusted, I would like to see it where flyers can't claim objectives when they aren't hovering. Let them give up power for point scoring.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/07/19 15:37:43
Buildings are an interesting potential counter to storm ravens. I'd consider bastions over bunkers. T9 reduces damage from multimeltas and stormstrike missiles by 33%.
It's less obvious what to put in them. I've got a unit of devastator centurions that I quite like. You do end up with a lot of eggs in one basket though, and spreading devastators between 3 bunkers does avoid that.
Iv taken one down by throwing about 3 nades over two turns with multiple units up its tail pipe on top of an ungodly amount of chip damage from bolters and heavy bolters after a very sad showing from a tri las pred
a tri las pred should be capable of taking it out.
~15000 Astra Militarum: 
~1200 | Adeptus Custodes: 
~1900 | Imperial Knights: 
~2000 | Sisters of Battle: 
~3500 | Leagues of Votann: 
~1200 | Tyranids: 
~2600 | Stormcast Eternals: 
