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So, Raven Guard are an army of Ghostkeels now. Ironic given that Ghostkeels are what killed their last Chapter Master back in Damocles: Kauyon, and now here they are stealing the Ghostkeel's special rule. /s

In all seriousness, this is a super strong chapter tactic. Thankfully vehicles don't get CT benefits or this would be beyond broken, but just from reading it, it seems pretty amazing. Between this and the Ultramarine CT, it looks like CTs are actually going to be very important this time around and factor heavily into list building. Kinda concerned at how powerful the other ones will be now, if stuff like this is gonna be the baseline for CTs, the power difference between Codex armies and Index armies is gonna be a bit bigger than I would like. Quite curious to see what comes next and what other armies are gonna be getting.

I do like the strategem though (assuming it costs at least 2 CP to use per unit). Fluffy while still being useful, and provides actual tactical decisions to be made with CPs rather than just stocking up on as many rerolls as you can.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Do we know for sure that tanks don't benefit?

 Ratius wrote:
RG flier spam just got realz,

The article on the Redemptor Dreadnought and Ultramarines clarifies it:

In game, the Ultramarines are one of the most tactically rewarding chapters, combining a huge range of Special Characters with the ability to fall back and shoot universally – like all Chapter Tactics, this will apply to your Infantry, Bikers and Dreadnoughts.

Ratius wrote:RG flier spam just got realz,

No, it hasn't. Flyers don't get the CT. See below.

Xenomancers wrote:Do we know for sure that tanks don't benefit?

Frozocrone wrote:I'm hoping it's like last edition for just Infantry and Dreads.

"like all Chapter Tactics, this will apply to your Infantry, Bikers and Dreadnoughts." 3rd paragraph, 6th and 7th line. https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/14/ultramarines-and-the-redemptor-dreadnought-first-lookgw-homepage-post-2/


EDIT: Darn, ninja'd...

I was kinda hopng for a speclialist Raven Guard inflitration squad or sniper.

Another powerful Chapter Tactic.

 Kroem wrote:

There is and always has been more to Raven Guard than "They're really good with jump packs". It's about damned time that it comes to the forefront.

Ja true I don't want to see them be one dimensional either, however it is odd to have a trait that discourages them from taking some of their favoured units.

No it doesn't. It makes those units safer to bring into the fray.

Also is half this forum lacking in reading comprension? It had been mentioned SEVERAL times the only vehicles benefiting are Dreads, and yet people are STILL up in arms about artillery and Stormravens.

 Frozocrone wrote:
Shrike as a Chapter Master to reroll hits and Stormravens with -2 to hit.

Awesome.

I'm hoping it's like last edition for just Infantry and Dreads.

Fairly sure its only on infantry and dreadnoughts.

additionally im more curious about their stratigem, it sounds like being able to infiltrate with non infiltrate units. soo hell blasters popping up 15" away for hot double taps, a DREAD popping up 9" away because they put a tarp over a washing machine?

im super stoked. even more so about the other chapters.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Kroem wrote:

There is and always has been more to Raven Guard than "They're really good with jump packs". It's about damned time that it comes to the forefront.

Ja true I don't want to see them be one dimensional either, however it is odd to have a trait that discourages them from taking some of their favoured units.

No it doesn't. It makes those units safer to bring into the fray.

Also is half this forum lacking in reading comprension? It had been mentioned SEVERAL times the only vehicles benefiting are Dreads, and yet people are STILL up in arms about artillery and Stormravens.

Actually

if you read the chapter focus there is no dead set no vehicles allowed mentioned.

the image clip just says RAVEN GUARD units

nothing on non vehicles. the next lines saying P tacticals, devs and dreads would benifit greatly as an example. unless i missed some kinda addendum or FAQ about it from GW its still sticks. (unless i forgot something from the UM side of it)

nothing on non vehicles. the next lines saying P tacticals, devs and dreads would benifit greatly as an example. unless i missed some kinda addendum or FAQ about it from GW its still sticks. (unless i forgot something from the UM side of it)

Sigh.

In game, the Ultramarines are one of the most tactically rewarding chapters, combining a huge range of Special Characters with the ability to fall back and shoot universally – like all Chapter Tactics, this will apply to your Infantry, Bikers and Dreadnoughts. This is a flexible and useful ability that offensively will allow Ultramarines players huge amounts of control over the board, tying enemy squads up in combat one turn, then destroying them massed firepower the next.

 Ratius wrote:
RG flier spam just got realz,

As has been said a couple times, CT only affect infantry, bike and dreads.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

nothing on non vehicles. the next lines saying P tacticals, devs and dreads would benifit greatly as an example. unless i missed some kinda addendum or FAQ about it from GW its still sticks. (unless i forgot something from the UM side of it)

Sigh.

In game, the Ultramarines are one of the most tactically rewarding chapters, combining a huge range of Special Characters with the ability to fall back and shoot universally – like all Chapter Tactics, this will apply to your Infantry, Bikers and Dreadnoughts. This is a flexible and useful ability that offensively will allow Ultramarines players huge amounts of control over the board, tying enemy squads up in combat one turn, then destroying them massed firepower the next.

Thanks buddy. could of said it was on the UM one

 Frozocrone wrote:
Shrike as a Chapter Master to reroll hits and Stormravens with -2 to hit.

Awesome.

I'm hoping it's like last edition for just Infantry and Dreads.

Edit:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

nothing on non vehicles. the next lines saying P tacticals, devs and dreads would benifit greatly as an example. unless i missed some kinda addendum or FAQ about it from GW its still sticks. (unless i forgot something from the UM side of it)

Sigh.

In game, the Ultramarines are one of the most tactically rewarding chapters, combining a huge range of Special Characters with the ability to fall back and shoot universally – like all Chapter Tactics, this will apply to your Infantry, Bikers and Dreadnoughts. This is a flexible and useful ability that offensively will allow Ultramarines players huge amounts of control over the board, tying enemy squads up in combat one turn, then destroying them massed firepower the next.

Strike From Shadows being broken I think is mitigated bybthe fact that it costs CP to do, and i imagine something like 1 CP for every unit you deploy in that manner. So there is a definite opportunity cost to consider.

Whelp, Raven Guard are going to be a to fight with orks.

 Etonaman wrote:
Strike From Shadows being broken I think is mitigated bybthe fact that it costs CP to do, and i imagine something like 1 CP for every unit you deploy in that manner. So there is a definite opportunity cost to consider.

1 CP seems a little cheap especially since it could be used to move in an uneven amount of points. (a tactical squad is not worth the same thing as a full sized centurion devistator squad full of grav cannon, and missiles or some other spiky shooting unit.

im expecting probably 2 at the min.

i wonder how its going to interact with untis inside transports.

 Luke_Prowler wrote:
Whelp, Raven Guard are going to be a to fight with orks.

Not really. You want to get close with orks, right? So the -1 to hit in shooting isn't as serious.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Also is half this forum lacking in reading comprension? It had been mentioned SEVERAL times the only vehicles benefiting are Dreads, and yet people are STILL up in arms about artillery and Stormravens.

BUT IMAGINE THE -2 HIT ON STORMRAVENS, WE'LL JUST SEE MARINES IN TOURNAMENTS FROM NOW UNTIL THE END OF TIME.

OnT: It looks like a powerful ability, and I dearly hope they have actually playtested it enough to make sure it's not overpowered even if it only applies on non-vehicles, Dreadnoughts and when you have a Chapter force (army, detachment or whatever the rules might stipulate).

Fluffy and powerful. I'm thinking more powerful than Ultramarines.

So will they balance the Codex's datasheet point costs against Ravenguard CT, Ultramarines CT, or some other middle ground CT that we haven't seen yet?

...Or are people going to argue, like they did in the Ultramarines CT discussion, that the CT "isn't worth even a single extra point"? Cuz that'd be hilarious.

(This is not a presumption that the Codex's introduction will be unbalanced vs Indices, it is an exploration of HOW they will attempt to balance them with the Indices)

 Thadin wrote:
I'm definitely going to experiment with using different Chapter Tactics for my Primaris Army and see what works best. Since that Raven Guard trait is enough to make me not take Guilliman and Ultramarines tactic just to try it out.

So far they sure beat the hell out of rerolling various niche things. Characters and HQ's provide enough rerolls as is

I'm really thinking my primaris are going to be raven guard, though to be fair we have only seen one other chapter tactic. The primaris lack mobility, that deep strike seems perfect.

 Desubot wrote:

 Etonaman wrote:
Strike From Shadows being broken I think is mitigated bybthe fact that it costs CP to do, and i imagine something like 1 CP for every unit you deploy in that manner. So there is a definite opportunity cost to consider.

1 CP seems a little cheap especially since it could be used to move in an uneven amount of points. (a tactical squad is not worth the same thing as a full sized centurion devistator squad full of grav cannon, and missiles or some other spiky shooting unit.

im expecting probably 2 at the min.

i wonder how its going to interact with untis inside transports.

Yes 2 CP is more reasonable. CP meta is interesting to think about.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Luke_Prowler wrote:
Whelp, Raven Guard are going to be a to fight with orks.

Not really. You want to get close with orks, right? So the -1 to hit in shooting isn't as serious.

I'm sure my shoota boyz, flash gitz, lootas, and deff koptas will appreciate your advise. there's more to the ork codex than choppas and weirdboyz

I play a scout army, but I can't see how Raven Guard CT is better than a 10-man sniper team with a missile launcher parked near Telion and a Captain.

 Unusual Suspect wrote:
Fluffy and powerful. I'm thinking more powerful than Ultramarines.

So will they balance the Codex's datasheet point costs against Ravenguard CT, Ultramarines CT, or some other middle ground CT that we haven't seen yet?

...Or are people going to argue, like they did in the Ultramarines CT discussion, that the CT "isn't worth even a single extra point"? Cuz that'd be hilarious.

(This is not a presumption that the Codex's introduction will be unbalanced vs Indices, it is an exploration of HOW they will attempt to balance them with the Indices)

I don't see any reason to change points costs to reflect CTs being added. Every army is going to get CTs in their codices so unless you plan on just bumping up the points costs on every army across the board, there is no point in doing so to SM just because they're the first codex out of the gate.

 GI_Redshirt wrote:

 Unusual Suspect wrote:
Fluffy and powerful. I'm thinking more powerful than Ultramarines.

So will they balance the Codex's datasheet point costs against Ravenguard CT, Ultramarines CT, or some other middle ground CT that we haven't seen yet?

...Or are people going to argue, like they did in the Ultramarines CT discussion, that the CT "isn't worth even a single extra point"? Cuz that'd be hilarious.

(This is not a presumption that the Codex's introduction will be unbalanced vs Indices, it is an exploration of HOW they will attempt to balance them with the Indices)

I don't see any reason to change points costs to reflect CTs being added. Every army is going to get CTs in their codices so unless you plan on just bumping up the points costs on every army across the board, there is no point in doing so to SM just because they're the first codex out of the gate.

If they want a balanced game that stays balanced, they need to balance the incoming Codexes to the Indexes. Since the Codexes are explicitly mentioned to occasionally rebalance points, I see no point in making a NEW balancing point above the current Index's average levels when the existing balancing point is so easily maintained by doing exactly what GW said they would do.

If you don't care about balance for the vast majority of the edition (i.e. before every single Codex is released), then I could see why it wouldn't be an issue.

 Etonaman wrote:
I play a scout army, but I can't see how Raven Guard CT is better than a 10-man sniper team with a missile launcher parked near Telion and a Captain.

I mean, with that setup Telion is still only giving you about as much extra firepower as you'd have had if you'd just spent his points on more scouts, so this does not seem like a very good reason to play Ultramarines.

 Luke_Prowler wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Luke_Prowler wrote:
Whelp, Raven Guard are going to be a to fight with orks.

Not really. You want to get close with orks, right? So the -1 to hit in shooting isn't as serious.

I'm sure my shoota boyz, flash gitz, lootas, and deff koptas will appreciate your advise. there's more to the ork codex than choppas and weirdboyz

Aren't shoota's 18" range? Just move a bit closer and you won't get penalized.
Lootas got it rough though, can't disagree with that. They should be able to target tanks just fine though.

Okay, so do we think

1. Different CT's cost different points somehow
2. They actually think this and the ultramarine tactic are equivalent
3. Ultramarines are paying the price for having a dozen special characters with a mediocre tactic

Also, anyone else amused by the fact this offers almost little benefit to deepstriking assault squads, one of the more iconic raven guard units? Presumably to mesh better with some successor chapters (raptors come to mind of course).

Orks generally got it rough, they are still the whipping boy of 40k.

I honestly think both the revealed Chapter Tactics are equal, which is why I have excitement for tomorrow's reveal. What I REALLY want is more on those Strategems. Each chapter getting their own specific bunch is pretty neato.

SilverAlien wrote:
Okay, so do we think

1. Different CT's cost different points somehow
2. They actually think this and the ultramarine tactic are equivalent
3. Ultramarines are paying the price for having a dozen special characters with a mediocre tactic

Also, anyone else amused by the fact this offers almost little benefit to deepstriking assault squads, one of the more iconic raven guard units? Presumably to mesh better with some successor chapters (raptors come to mind of course).

I'm guessing GW is probably somewhere between 2 and 3. Personally, I'm a 3 (access to Guilliman is, itself, a very powerful asset for an army to have).

Also, Deepstriking assault squads do still benefit from the ability somewhat, they just don't benefit against the target they deepstrike against.

But that isn't going to stop a player from Deepstriking assault squads against isolated enemy units (sure, the isolated unit can fire without penalty, but what about that other enemy firebase that might want to reach out and help the isolated unit for another purpose... they certainly WOULD take the penalty), which totally fits into the Raven Guard ambush approach.

 Unusual Suspect wrote:

 GI_Redshirt wrote:

 Unusual Suspect wrote:
Fluffy and powerful. I'm thinking more powerful than Ultramarines.

So will they balance the Codex's datasheet point costs against Ravenguard CT, Ultramarines CT, or some other middle ground CT that we haven't seen yet?

...Or are people going to argue, like they did in the Ultramarines CT discussion, that the CT "isn't worth even a single extra point"? Cuz that'd be hilarious.

(This is not a presumption that the Codex's introduction will be unbalanced vs Indices, it is an exploration of HOW they will attempt to balance them with the Indices)

I don't see any reason to change points costs to reflect CTs being added. Every army is going to get CTs in their codices so unless you plan on just bumping up the points costs on every army across the board, there is no point in doing so to SM just because they're the first codex out of the gate.

If they want a balanced game that stays balanced, they need to balance the incoming Codexes to the Indexes. Since the Codexes are explicitly mentioned to occasionally rebalance points, I see no point in making a NEW balancing point above the current Index's average levels when the existing balancing point is so easily maintained by doing exactly what GW said they would do.

If you don't care about balance for the vast majority of the edition (i.e. before every single Codex is released), then I could see why it wouldn't be an issue.

Oh, so you know when this edition is going to end and when 9th is gonna come out?! You need to share that information with everyone on dakka, that should be up on news and rumors! Especially since you apparently have the exact release schedule for every single codex as well!

Ravenguard devastator spam is going to be nuts. Unkillable from afar.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Lootas got it rough though, can't disagree with that. They should be able to target tanks just fine though.

No big deal. Lootas allready ain't worth using.