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 GI_Redshirt wrote:


Oh, so you know when this edition is going to end and when 9th is gonna come out?! You need to share that information with everyone on dakka, that should be up on news and rumors! Especially since you apparently have the exact release schedule for every single codex as well!

What a potent remark that totally negates all of my points, instead of merely hanging onto a single word that is collateral to the actual point I was trying to make!

But here, let me clarify so you don't have to put any more holes in the straw man you've set up:

If you don't care about balance until every faction has a codex, then I could see why it wouldn't be an issue.

This CT is too strong, imo. Army wide hit penalties (that even work on dreadnoughts) is a little OTT, and not very interactive for your opponent.

This will be especially punishing for mobile armies to deal with,as it'll stack with the penalties for moving. Like 80% of my dark eldar will be hitting on 5s.

It REALLY isn't that strong. As a Necron, Skitarii, and on the rare occasion Tyranid player (assuming I'm allowed to borrow models that day) I don't think it's bad.

The good this is that they can nerf it pretty easy if is too strong. Like, change the range from 12" to 20".

I think the biggest thing to balance Ravenguard its how bad they stratagem and they CT combine. The Stratagem is good for a full assault army, the CT for a shooting one.

 koooaei wrote:
Ravenguard devastator spam is going to be nuts. Unkillable from afar.

Thinking tactical terminators will see more use in RG lists than before, too. Rather big boost to their survivability. Granted, people need to get over their irrational fear of using terminators before that happens I suppose.


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 Galas wrote:
The good this is that they can nerf it pretty easy if is too strong. Like, change the range from 12" to 20".

I think the biggest thing to balance Ravenguard its how bad they stratagem and they CT combine. The Stratagem is good for a full assault army, the CT for a shooting one.

So have an army with both.

Have an army list with some powerful shooting elements, and tempt the enemy in to getting within 12" of htem. Then use the stratagem to punish them if they try to do so.

That actually feels very Raven Guard.

 Melissia wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Ravenguard devastator spam is going to be nuts. Unkillable from afar.

Thinking tactical terminators will see more use in RG lists than before, too. Rather big boost to their survivability. Granted, people need to get over their irrational fear of using terminators before that happens I suppose.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galas wrote:
The good this is that they can nerf it pretty easy if is too strong. Like, change the range from 12" to 20".

I think the biggest thing to balance Ravenguard its how bad they stratagem and they CT combine. The Stratagem is good for a full assault army, the CT for a shooting one.

So have an army with both.

Have an army list with some powerful shooting elements, and tempt the enemy in to getting within 12" of htem. Then use the stratagem to punish them if they try to do so.

That actually feels very Raven Guard.

Directed generally, not specifically towards those quoted, but how can anyone talk balance without having any clue yet what is entailed in the Codex beyond these two tiny snippets about Chapter Tactics? Do they require points? Can they only be fielded in a Battle-forged force made up only of the Chapter (compared to only the same faction in a detachment as it is currently)? Do you have to take a chapter-specific HQ option to get them? Or were Space Marines as current balanced with the idea of these Chapter Tactics coming out after?

Unfortunately, the list of unknowns is virtually endless compared to what is really only a handful of small teasers - any conjecture about balance is blind at best.

 Melissia wrote:

Have an army list with some powerful shooting elements, and tempt the enemy in to getting within 12" of htem. Then use the stratagem to punish them if they try to do so.

That actually feels very Raven Guard.

I am with you on this, I think this CT is very fluffy and looks like a lot of fun.

 Unusual Suspect wrote:


So will they balance the Codex's datasheet point costs against Ravenguard CT, Ultramarines CT, or some other middle ground CT that we haven't seen yet?

...Or are people going to argue, like they did in the Ultramarines CT discussion, that the CT "isn't worth even a single extra point"? Cuz that'd be hilarious.

(This is not a presumption that the Codex's introduction will be unbalanced vs Indices, it is an exploration of HOW they will attempt to balance them with the Indices)

That's my question. If each codex is going to introduce powerful faction abilities, how are they balancing this against armies without codexes, which abilities did they balance points on, etc. and are we going to rehash the silly "free stuff" arguments from 7th.

Guys, Codex aren't gonna be balanced agains't the Indexes. Thats obvious.

Some armies are gonna be competent even without a codex just like in AoS you had armies without a battletome (Like Tomb Kings or Skaven with Stormfiends) that where "top tier" just for brute force of their units or some very powerfull combos.
But in generall the Codex armies are gonna have much more tools at their dispossal. Even if those tools are weaker than some Indiexes .

 koooaei wrote:
Ravenguard devastator spam is going to be nuts. Unkillable from afar.


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 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Lootas got it rough though, can't disagree with that. They should be able to target tanks just fine though.

No big deal. Lootas allready ain't worth using.

If you don't have guillamen i don't give one wet shart about your stupid devs and 90% of my shooting is sub 12 anyway.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galas wrote:
Guys, Codex aren't gonna be balanced agains't the Indexes. Thats obvious.

Some armies are gonna be competent even without a codex just like in AoS you had armies without a battletome (Like Tomb Kings or Skaven with Stormfiends) that where "top tier" just for brute force of their units or some very powerfull combos.
But in generall the Codex armies are gonna have much more tools at their dispossal. Even if those tools are weaker than some Indiexes .

Variety doesn't have to mean power. The Stormcast Eternals tome was a perfect example of that. It made the army at the top end much weaker but made a ton more builds viable leaving them as a good upper-middle class dex.

 Melissia wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Ravenguard devastator spam is going to be nuts. Unkillable from afar.

Thinking tactical terminators will see more use in RG lists than before, too. Rather big boost to their survivability. Granted, people need to get over their irrational fear of using terminators before that happens I suppose.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galas wrote:
The good this is that they can nerf it pretty easy if is too strong. Like, change the range from 12" to 20".

I think the biggest thing to balance Ravenguard its how bad they stratagem and they CT combine. The Stratagem is good for a full assault army, the CT for a shooting one.

So have an army with both.

Have an army list with some powerful shooting elements, and tempt the enemy in to getting within 12" of htem. Then use the stratagem to punish them if they try to do so.

That actually feels very Raven Guard.

almost like GW designed the whole shibang to synergize together eh? 8th edition seems to be shaping up to an edition of varying synergizes, which means math hammering a single unit may be inefficant.

nevermind.

 argonak wrote:
I don't like this chapter tactic. It seems inherently unbalanced, as its affecting the abilities of your opponent, rather than yourself. It also immediately removes some of the previous simplicity of war scrolls. This chapter tactic defeats the entire point of removing modifiers for BS. Its probably a safe assumption now that down the line someone will get a modifier for their opponent's WS too.

It just feels like it is going against the design concept of 8th edition, by introducing modifiers to BS that otherwise aren't there outside of special scenarios.

A -1 BS to someone who already has terrible BS is going to be more painful than to someone who was hitting on 3+. You were hitting on 5? Great now your hit chance is 50% less. Congrats!

except other units already have abilities that modify rolls made by your enemy in that way.

BrianDavion wrote:

 argonak wrote:
I don't like this chapter tactic. It seems inherently unbalanced, as its affecting the abilities of your opponent, rather than yourself. It also immediately removes some of the previous simplicity of war scrolls. This chapter tactic defeats the entire point of removing modifiers for BS. Its probably a safe assumption now that down the line someone will get a modifier for their opponent's WS too.

It just feels like it is going against the design concept of 8th edition, by introducing modifiers to BS that otherwise aren't there outside of special scenarios.

A -1 BS to someone who already has terrible BS is going to be more painful than to someone who was hitting on 3+. You were hitting on 5? Great now your hit chance is 50% less. Congrats!

except other units already have abilities that modify rolls made by your enemy in that way.

Oh I hadn't thought of Flyers. None of my games include those yet. I guess I retract my complaint.

 argonak wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 argonak wrote:
I don't like this chapter tactic. It seems inherently unbalanced, as its affecting the abilities of your opponent, rather than yourself. It also immediately removes some of the previous simplicity of war scrolls. This chapter tactic defeats the entire point of removing modifiers for BS. Its probably a safe assumption now that down the line someone will get a modifier for their opponent's WS too.

It just feels like it is going against the design concept of 8th edition, by introducing modifiers to BS that otherwise aren't there outside of special scenarios.

A -1 BS to someone who already has terrible BS is going to be more painful than to someone who was hitting on 3+. You were hitting on 5? Great now your hit chance is 50% less. Congrats!

except other units already have abilities that modify rolls made by your enemy in that way.

Oh I hadn't thought of Flyers. None of my games include those yet. I guess I retract my complaint.

not even just fliers, eldar rangers also have a similer effect. and proably other units.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
This CT is too strong, imo. Army wide hit penalties (that even work on dreadnoughts) is a little OTT, and not very interactive for your opponent.

This will be especially punishing for mobile armies to deal with,as it'll stack with the penalties for moving. Like 80% of my dark eldar will be hitting on 5s.

1) Move within 12"
2) Shoot em

I'm still laughing at the prospect of sneaky Ironclad Dreads (or Assault Centurions to a lesser extent). Can't shoot them effectively unless you get close enough for them to assault you.

My only concern with the stratagem is how it works during deployment.

If it counted as just holding a unit back til the very end, then, it will mean that you are -never- getting 1st turn as you are deploying your final units after your opponent has finished deploying.

Now, i hope it doesn't work this way, but will need clarification when we see the full rule in the codex, otherwise your sneaky units are just going to die before they can do anything.

Kdash wrote:
My only concern with the stratagem is how it works during deployment.

If it counted as just holding a unit back til the very end, then, it will mean that you are -never- getting 1st turn as you are deploying your final units after your opponent has finished deploying.

Now, i hope it doesn't work this way, but will need clarification when we see the full rule in the codex, otherwise your sneaky units are just going to die before they can do anything.

I believe (not knowing for certain obviously) that it will work like old Infiltrate. Except this time, you designate units to Strike from the Shadows, deploying them 'in reserve' like you would normally for Deep-striking or equivalent units. And then, those units using Strike from the Shadows make their from-reserve deployment before either player makes their turn. I doubt it will mess with the actual deployment phase, just that you're giving some units, for the cost of your CP's, a special deepstrike that occurs at a different time.

And, if that is the case. it will be easy to keep your Strike from Shadows units safe if they need to be. In this edition, its fairly straight forward to tell if you have First Turn or not. Barring a lucky 6 roll from either player of course. This also depends if Strike from Shadows deployment occurs before or after Seize the initiative rolls. If it's after, that's really powerful and safe.

The wording of 'before the game starts' also leads me to believe that the Strike from Shadows units get to move in their movement phase, unlike other deep strikes that can only maybe move in the Charge phase.

All just speculation, obviously.

 Thadin wrote:


I believe (not knowing for certain obviously) that it will work like old Infiltrate. Except this time, you designate units to Strike from the Shadows, deploying them 'in reserve' like you would normally for Deep-striking or equivalent units. And then, those units using Strike from the Shadows make their from-reserve deployment before either player makes their turn. I doubt it will mess with the actual deployment phase, just that you're giving some units, for the cost of your CP's, a special deepstrike that occurs at a different time.

And, if that is the case. it will be easy to keep your Strike from Shadows units safe if they need to be. In this edition, its fairly straight forward to tell if you have First Turn or not. Barring a lucky 6 roll from either player of course. This also depends if Strike from Shadows deployment occurs before or after Seize the initiative rolls. If it's after, that's really powerful and safe.

The wording of 'before the game starts' also leads me to believe that the Strike from Shadows units get to move in their movement phase, unlike other deep strikes that can only maybe move in the Charge phase.

All just speculation, obviously.

Yeah, it's definitely a "wait and see" kinda thing.

Means i've just got to try to keep restraining myself in terms of list planning for an extra week or so!

Kdash wrote:
Yeah, it's definitely a "wait and see" kinda thing.

Means i've just got to try to keep restraining myself in terms of list planning for an extra week or so!

Well, the FLGS around my location is closing for a few weeks and moving to a bigger store. Plenty of time to list build for me
I hope all the Chapter Tactics are as good in different ways. Plenty of fun things to try out on a Primaris-only army.

As I mentioned in another thread...Dark Reapers will be even more common if facing Raven Guard (Maugan Ra and Dark Reapers ignore modifiers when shooting).

 Elbows wrote:
As I mentioned in another thread...Dark Reapers will be even more common if facing Raven Guard (Maugan Ra and Dark Reapers ignore modifiers when shooting).

"Last week your Raven Guard successor chapter were a real nuisance, so today I'm bringing Dark Reapers! Your Raven Guard is going down!"
"Actually, now they're a Crimson Fists successor chapter."
"... I am hate."

I am really hoping that all these CT require a full army of that type to use, otherwise I just don't see the downside involved with abusing them.

Breng77 wrote:
I am really hoping that all these CT require a full army of that type to use, otherwise I just don't see the downside involved with abusing them.

IIRC in order for the stratagems and/or chapter tactics to be used, every units within the detachment must be of the same sub faction. (I.e everything in a vanguard detachment has to be ultramarines). This came from their live stream, and works exactly like canticles work for ad mech detachments.
They also used an example of adding in an assassin into the same detachment would mean you'd no longer gain the benefits.

Kdash wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
I am really hoping that all these CT require a full army of that type to use, otherwise I just don't see the downside involved with abusing them.

IIRC in order for the stratagems and/or chapter tactics to be used, every units within the detachment must be of the same sub faction. (I.e everything in a vanguard detachment has to be ultramarines). This came from their live stream, and works exactly like canticles work for ad mech detachments.
They also used an example of adding in an assassin into the same detachment would mean you'd no longer gain the benefits.

That's pretty disappointing. Detachments are just not very restrictive at 2k points since you get 3 of them. A Guard brigade with a ton of CP can unlock Marine stratagems, which apparently include things like orbital bombardments, by taking a single Marine unit in an auxiliary detachment and paying 1 CP. And you could mix-and-match chapter tactics pretty easily to get the ones you want on the units they're good for as long as you're not planning to put literally everything into a single 6" bubble.

Dionysodorus wrote:

That's pretty disappointing. Detachments are just not very restrictive at 2k points since you get 3 of them. A Guard brigade with a ton of CP can unlock Marine stratagems, which apparently include things like orbital bombardments, by taking a single Marine unit in an auxiliary detachment and paying 1 CP. And you could mix-and-match chapter tactics pretty easily to get the ones you want on the units they're good for as long as you're not planning to put literally everything into a single 6" bubble.

Hrm, i never thought about it that way... A cheap guard brigade for an extra 9 CP which then allows x amount of raven guard units to "strike from the shadows" will seem a little broken. Hopefully they will clarify whether this is correct/possible or not in the codex or faq afterwards.

Kdash wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:

That's pretty disappointing. Detachments are just not very restrictive at 2k points since you get 3 of them. A Guard brigade with a ton of CP can unlock Marine stratagems, which apparently include things like orbital bombardments, by taking a single Marine unit in an auxiliary detachment and paying 1 CP. And you could mix-and-match chapter tactics pretty easily to get the ones you want on the units they're good for as long as you're not planning to put literally everything into a single 6" bubble.

Hrm, i never thought about it that way... A cheap guard brigade for an extra 9 CP which then allows x amount of raven guard units to "strike from the shadows" will seem a little broken. Hopefully they will clarify whether this is correct/possible or not in the codex or faq afterwards.

We will have to see what combinations are possible both with other CP providing detachments and also different detachments with different Chapter Tactics....then there are Stragems and Relics to add to the mix.

 Mr Morden wrote:

We will have to see what combinations are possible both with other CP providing detachments and also different detachments with different Chapter Tactics....then there are Stragems and Relics to add to the mix.

I'm not too concerned right now about mixed marine armies benefiting from different chapter tactics, especially if their full benefits are fully restricted to each detachment and the CP gained from them. It'd be fantastic to see the Imperial Fists holding the line, while a detachment of blood angels drops in to rip everything to shreds kinda thing.

Kdash wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

We will have to see what combinations are possible both with other CP providing detachments and also different detachments with different Chapter Tactics....then there are Stragems and Relics to add to the mix.

I'm not too concerned right now about mixed marine armies benefiting from different chapter tactics, especially if their full benefits are fully restricted to each detachment and the CP gained from them. It'd be fantastic to see the Imperial Fists holding the line, while a detachment of blood angels drops in to rip everything to shreds kinda thing.

The fluff could be cool, but the potential power is concerning, especially on the imperial side of things. If you can basically always field your units with the most advantageous CT (up to 3 in matched play) it seems like there could be some abusive combos possible.