Strongest Space Marine Chapter Tactic?

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**MagicJuggler**

Here's how I view it.

You will not be within 12" of your opponent's entire army, but only part of it. The bonus is good for Rifle Dreads as they can just hang back and shoot stuff while going "shh, I'm sneaky", or it can serve as a defensive buff for slower melee stuff like Ironclads or Assault Sentinels. The Ironclads in question can Advance on the first turn while popping Smoke to be at effectively -2 to be hit if you don't move within range for them (or their buddies) to assault you next turn. While your foe is dealing with the mechanical sneaky Distraction Carnifexes, you go for the objectives.

Raven Guards are experts at gorilla warfare indeed.

**SilverAlien**

So let's do some math hammer comparing Raven Guard and Iron hands being shot by 30 bolters rounds and 30 las rounds (from a SM and guardsman respectively)

Spoiler:

So I am still not sure I agree with the consensus RG tactics are that much better than iron hands. Particularly for units that expect to be in melee or rapid fire range, which is a fairly considerable portion of your infantry, who are the main recipients of CTs that we know of.

**Crablezworth**

Unusual Suspect wrote:
Crablezworth wrote:
Unusual Suspect wrote:
I went with Salamanders, but Raven Guard were extremely close behind.

Salamanders CT are very good, close second IMO. The CP comparison isn't perfect because you're only re-rolling hit/wound and not say damage output (obv one could still use a cp for that). It's still good but trends towards high damage heavy weapons. The flat out -1 for all RG bikes/infantry/dreads still strikes me as stronger, there are other ways to get re-rolls on the hitting side of things.

Lets put actual numbers in, to really understand how much the Sally benefit is (and yes, the CP number is a bit over the top as a comparison, but it really has the potential to be worth every illusory CP spent):

5 Bolter marines firing at Fire Warriors (their fault for daring to include the word "fire" in their name, I suppose):

You're almost certain to miss at least one, so you get to reroll that miss. Congrats, you effectively gained a shot you wouldn't have had otherwise, which hits 2/3 of the time (barring penalties). Further, as you're firing bolters, you're bound to fail at least one to-wound roll. Congrats, you effectively gained an extra "hit" that you wouldn't have had otherwise, which wounds 2/3 of the time.

That means the bolter marines get an extra 2/3*2/3 (chance of extra hit * chance to wound) + 2/3 (chance to wound) wounds inflicted above and beyond what they would have gotten otherwise, or just over one (10/9ths) extra bolter wounds per shooting phase.
At 12" or greater, you go from 2.22 wounds per round to 3.33 wounds per round (both inflicted, not unsaved - the important thing is the ratio). That's nothing less than a 50% increase in firepower, for a weapon type that honestly benefits the least from this CT.
At <12", you're still going from 4.44 wounds per round to 5.56, or a roughly 25% increase in firepower. That's still not bad at ALL.

5 Devastator marines firing 4 lascannons at a Hammerhead (because it aimed one of its eyes at the Devastators funny, and that gak won't fly):

We'll just ignore the bolter for now and consider the lascannons. Of those 4 lascannons, 1 is likely to miss. Congrats, you effectively gained a LASCANNON shot you wouldn't have had otherwise, which hits 2/3 of the time. Further, as you've got about 3 rolls, you're likely to roll a failure to wound at least once. Congrats, you effectively gained a LASCANNON hit you wouldn't have had otherwise.

This time, however, we've only fired 4 Lascannons, so we've only inflicted 1.78 lascannon wounds without the CT. With the CT, you end up with 2.89 lascannon wounds inflicted.

...Ladies and gentlemen, that is nothing less than 62.5% increase in your lascannon's output on its choicest target.

And the biggest thing, the most important thing, the thing that makes this absolutely bonkers... you STILL can use your CP, so instead of wasting one just to get another Lascannon hit or wound on the target, you now get to spend it boosting pure, unadulterated damage most of the time. And you now have an extra dice to roll, so you don't feel you need to "waste" a CP reroll on a damage roll of 2 or 3 (since you'll probably have a 1 or 2 that would benefit more anyway).

But lets not forget about Dreads! Lets take a vet Rifleman Dread firing two twin autocannons at a Shas'o Ralai (not because he is a threat - he isn't - but purely out of spite)

Of those 8 shots, only one is likely to miss. Congrats, you... well, you probably know the drill, but this time you're getting an extra 5/6 of a hit. With 7 or 8 hits, you're almost certain to fail at least one to-wound. Congrats, you're... getting bored with this format.

Lets just hit the numbers. 5/6*2/3 (chance to hit * chance to wound) + 2/3 (chance to wound) = 11/9 extra wounds inflicted.

Since the baseline output is 4.44, you're looking at a 27.5% increase in effective firepower. Not as awesome as other circumstances, but still pretty damn awesome to have just for showing up.

And the rub, which still hasn't really been addressed yet, is that these sorts of effectiveness boosts (generally for MSU or small quantities of shooting on a unit-per-unit level) will apply each game, every game, all game, no matter who your opponent is or what he brings to the table, because its an inherent ability with NO mitigating circumstances.

Ravenguard's effective defensive bonus is also variable - at best, it doubles the defensive bonus (against BS5+), it diminishes to a 50% defensive bonus against BS4+, it diminishes further to 33% defensive bonus against BS3+, and drops to 25% against BS2+.

A good half the armies in this game are BS3+ baseline, and a significant portion of the armies have viable melee builds that can completely and utterly ignore any and all benefit the Raven Guard gain from their Chapter. All of it, meaningless, against one of only two categories of armies in the game (and particularly a playstyle that has recieved a significant boost from 8e in general).

I mean, seriously, Raven Guard is the Bee's Knees, but it has mitigating factors that prevent it from being nearly as powerful (either against an entire category of armies, or against a skillful opponent that know why and how to play aggressively), while Sallies... Sallies just keep on keepin on bein' strong to right the wrong.

IMO it reads like you're over selling the salamander trait, for one, it's very easy to have a character that allows units to re-roll hits or 1's to hit, so that's not hard to get for a unit or multiple units doing fire support, granted those units cost points but it's pretty likely you'll have to pay an HQ tax anyway to make a list. The more useful aspect is certainly re-rolling wounds for high-damage or potentially high-damage weaponry weaponry given the stength "gully". Shooting is important, also no getting shot is important. Why wouldn't I take say RG and then improve shooting the same way every marine player currently can? I see the salamander CT most useful on dreads, the other units (bikes/infantry) lose their shooting power proportionally to their casualties, no so with a dread.

Also, just for fun, a pure RG list vs a pure Sallies list, you're now hitting worse when shooting at a lot of targets outside of 12 inches in the enemy army as a salamanders player. So ya. you get a couple re-rolls per unit, you're gonna need'm.

**Selym**

Voted Raven Guard. You've just removed 50% of an Ork army's ranged power, 33% of an IG army's ranged power, 25% of MEQ/Eldar ranged power. For no additional cost that we know of yet.

**Insectum7**

Voted UM because thats what I play. I also think its the coolest, I like my marines to be disciplined under fire.

Big shout out to the Salamanders though. Thats a mean, mean rule.

Edit: Assault armies arent going to care about RG tactics. Tyranids, zerkers, etc. White Scars even.

**CthuluIsSpy**

Selym wrote:
Voted Raven Guard. You've just removed 50% of an Ork army's ranged power, 33% of an IG army's ranged power, 25% of MEQ/Eldar ranged power. For no additional cost that we know of yet.

Unless they get close. Orks are close ranged, right?
I suspect it's not going to be that scary in practice.

**Arandmoor**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I think everything is equal except Iron Hands, which is honestly pretty damn weak.

It matters if their vehicles get this trait or not.

I'm going to blindly assume that they do, which makes it pretty freaking powerful.

**Selym**

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Selym wrote:
Voted Raven Guard. You've just removed 50% of an Ork army's ranged power, 33% of an IG army's ranged power, 25% of MEQ/Eldar ranged power. For no additional cost that we know of yet.

Unless they get close. Orks are close ranged, right?
I suspect it's not going to be that scary in practice.

Okay then, it removes the option of using avoidance tactics to stay out of combat.

**Arandmoor**

Selym wrote:
Voted Raven Guard. You've just removed 50% of an Ork army's ranged power, 33% of an IG army's ranged power, 25% of MEQ/Eldar ranged power. For no additional cost that we know of yet.

I voted RG because of how it will interact with quad-las preds.

Anything that's normally going to just sit back and pewpewpew all game is going to love that. IG anti-tank fire only hits you on a 5+? ...okay.

Also, their air support will be even more annoying than normal.

Remember that blood angels flyer-spam list that won that tournament the first week of 8th ed? I'll be he started repainting his entire army this morning...

**CthuluIsSpy**

Arandmoor wrote:
Selym wrote:
Voted Raven Guard. You've just removed 50% of an Ork army's ranged power, 33% of an IG army's ranged power, 25% of MEQ/Eldar ranged power. For no additional cost that we know of yet.

I voted RG because of how it will interact with quad-las preds.

Anything that's normally going to just sit back and pewpewpew all game is going to love that. IG anti-tank fire only hits you on a 5+? ...okay.

Also, their air support will be even more annoying than normal.

Remember that blood angels flyer-spam list that won that tournament the first week of 8th ed? I'll be he started repainting his entire army this morning...

Except that Chapter Tactics only affect Infantry, Bikes and Dreadnoughts. So flyers will not be buffed, neither will tanks.
It pretty much tells you on the ultramarine page.

like all Chapter Tactics, this will apply to your Infantry, Bikers and Dreadnoughts.

Seems oddly specific if it affects everything.

**Selym**

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Except that Chapter Tactics only affect Infantry, Bikes and Dreadnoughts. So flyers will not be buffed, neither will tanks.
It pretty much tells you on the ultramarine page.

like all Chapter Tactics, this will apply to your Infantry, Bikers and Dreadnoughts.

Seems oddly specific if it affects everything.

So rifle Dreds, Devastator Squads, and carefully-placed biker squads. The first two sit back and shoot, the latter sticks to one side of the board or the other, forcing part of the opponents army that wants to shoot them before they make melee get the -1 to hit.

**Crimson Devil**

Selym wrote:
CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Selym wrote:
Voted Raven Guard. You've just removed 50% of an Ork army's ranged power, 33% of an IG army's ranged power, 25% of MEQ/Eldar ranged power. For no additional cost that we know of yet.

Unless they get close. Orks are close ranged, right?
I suspect it's not going to be that scary in practice.
Okay then, it removes the option of using avoidance tactics to stay out of combat.

What Orks are you facing where shooting and avoiding combat is a thing? That's like playing Vegan Tyranids.

**Selym**

Crimson Devil wrote:
Selym wrote:
CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Selym wrote:
Voted Raven Guard. You've just removed 50% of an Ork army's ranged power, 33% of an IG army's ranged power, 25% of MEQ/Eldar ranged power. For no additional cost that we know of yet.

Unless they get close. Orks are close ranged, right?
I suspect it's not going to be that scary in practice.
Okay then, it removes the option of using avoidance tactics to stay out of combat.

What Orks are you facing where shooting and avoiding combat is a thing? That's like playing Vegan Tyranids.

What ranged army are you facing that doesn't avoid melee?

Orks are't the only RG opponent.

**Crimson Devil**

I play Blood Angels, the enemy doesn't avoid close combat for long.

**interviglium**

SilverAlien wrote:
So let's do some math hammer comparing Raven Guard and Iron hands being shot by 30 bolters rounds and 30 las rounds (from a SM and guardsman respectively)

Spoiler:

Raven Guard outside 12 inches:

30*(1/2)*(1/2)*(1/3)= 2.5 wounds average

30*(1/3)*(1/3)*(1/3)= 1.1 wounds average

Raven Guard inside 12 inches (or being stabbed in cc, etc):

30*(2/3)*(1/2)*(1/3)= 3.3 wounds average

30*(1/2)*(1/3)*(1/3)= 1.7 wounds average

Iron Hands anywhere:

30*(2/3)*(1/2)*(1/3)*(5/6)= 2.8 wounds average

30*(1/2)*(1/3)*(1/3)*(5/6)= 1.4 wounds average

So I am still not sure I agree with the consensus RG tactics are that much better than iron hands. Particularly for units that expect to be in melee or rapid fire range, which is a fairly considerable portion of your infantry, who are the main recipients of CTs that we know of.

What about numbers for things like Dreadnoughts getting hit by lascannons, or primaris by autocannons?

**Gibs55**

I picked Raven Guard

It isn't that hard to deny Deep Strikes and keeping important units outside 12" for the first few turns. Overall it is super strong especially if it stacks with cover to give -2 to hit. You put your big guns (Rifle Dreads etc) in the middle in cover and force your opponent to fight through the rest of your army, with -2 to hit they are not going to die from any range attach.

Salamanders is also very strong however its going to make allot of character and unit combinations less than optimal. Which might hurt build diversity in the ling run.

Imperial Fists, provided there is lots of terrain will also be up there. You can sit in cover to get -1 while negating the opposition bonus.

Ultramarines and White Scars should also not be underestimated the ability to fall back from combat and still contribute is massive! The worst part about playing assault units is when the opponent falls back and you get shot at, now you have either more shooting or the unit come back in and hit first.

Iron hands will be great if the benefit includes vehicles otherwise its juts a 16% toughness bonus, which will have a flow on effect to shooting and combat I guess.

Black Templars is probably the weakest from my perspective (being a noob) as it will only be effective in the hands of experienced players.

Overall they all seem fairly decent in the right hands. Ultramarines will probably still be best as they have Robert G

**SharkoutofWata**

Raven Guard is hands down the most powerful. It outright breaks a lot of opponents passively, forcing them to do something that their army might not be set up for. Forcing them to advance hard when maybe they didn't want to. It's not powerful because of what it isn't good against, it's powerful because of the amount of things it IS good against. Rock, paper, scissors is the name of the game and Raven Guard now have more armies where they can be the favorable matchup against.

Salamanders are a close second though but it's not because of them being more favorable in matchups. They simply don't have to rely as hard on aura buffs, which is a big benefit in army building. Being able to reroll hits, wounds and still have the CP reroll for Damage is a big bonus that will see a lot of use on things like Lascannon Dreads and Devastators. Yes, a better effect can be done with a Chapter Master equivalent but that's a lot of points for a babysitter unit, especially when we're talking about a backfield support unit. It's a good improvement to an army and there's very few times it won't do some sort of benefit.

Scars and Ultramarines are my next choices depending on the playstyle of the player, but both are 'build around or miss out' options. It's not like you can just throw in an Assault Cannon Dread and think that's good enough to Fall Back and shoot with as an Ultramarine. Hitting on 5s, whoop-de-do... For me, it's exactly what I want to match the playstyle I already use, but that's just a happy coincidence.

**Gibs55**

SharkoutofWata wrote:
Raven Guard is hands down the most powerful. It outright breaks a lot of opponents passively, forcing them to do something that their army might not be set up for. Forcing them to advance hard when maybe they didn't want to. It's not powerful because of what it isn't good against, it's powerful because of the amount of things it IS good against. Rock, paper, scissors is the name of the game and Raven Guard now have more armies where they can be the favorable matchup against.

Salamanders are a close second though but it's not because of them being more favorable in matchups. They simply don't have to rely as hard on aura buffs, which is a big benefit in army building. Being able to reroll hits, wounds and still have the CP reroll for Damage is a big bonus that will see a lot of use on things like Lascannon Dreads and Devastators. Yes, a better effect can be done with a Chapter Master equivalent but that's a lot of points for a babysitter unit, especially when we're talking about a backfield support unit. It's a good improvement to an army and there's very few times it won't do some sort of benefit.

Scars and Ultramarines are my next choices depending on the playstyle of the player, but both are 'build around or miss out' options. It's not like you can just throw in an Assault Cannon Dread and think that's good enough to Fall Back and shoot with as an Ultramarine. Hitting on 5s, whoop-de-do... For me, it's exactly what I want to match the playstyle I already use, but that's just a happy coincidence.

Pretty much any army that's plan was to engage in long range siege warfare will not be able to outgun Raven Guard unless they have an equally powerful rule or better priced units. And you are exactly right it is going to have favourable match ups more often than not. However until we see everything it is too early to panic.

**dosiere**

Raven guard seems the most useful, and to a wider variety of units. -1 to hit on the first turn at least is a pretty big deal. Particularly nice against the ridiculous flyers flying in circles around the table, might make them have to actually think about where they're going.

Salamanders seems a bit under appreciated to me. Seems pretty legit actually.

Ultramarines CT might be overvalued, based on initial reactions anyway. The units it really helps is a pretty small number.

White scars might be a sleeper hit, depending on how useful their special character ends up being.

**casvalremdeikun**

Raven Guard can have their tactic completely bypassed by fast units or units that can deep strike. That said, Orks are going to have a really hard time shooting them. 'Ere we go, I guess. In terms of fluff, holy hell is this cool. There is a RG Deathwatch Marine with smoke Launchers on the top of his jump pack. Now we know what it does. If I were playing RG, I would stick one on top of every jump pack.

Salamanders have an always on ability. Rerolling baseline makes it so they are less dependent on a character to boost them. Definitely a good tactic.

Imperial Fists tactics are dependent on a lot of things, and not particularly fluffy, IMO, but they are serviceable. I am looking forward to putting rounds down range and getting to say NOPE to cover.

Ultramarines tactics I think aren't being given their proper respect due. +1 to Leadership is one more Marine saved from morale, even better because of ATSKNF. Their pseudo-Fly disengage is actually pretty good.

Iron Hands tactics are boring, but being able to ignore wounds is always a welcome addition for me.

White Scars are situational. They don't want to be charging in the first place, so having the ability to charge after disengaging isn't much of a boon. Still, it makes Assault Marines a little beastly due to their ability to effectively ignore the penalties for Falling Back. Flamer Assault Marines will be a good fit in the Scars.

Black Templars have boring tactics, but damn if they aren't appropriate. I think a boost to charge distance would have been better though.

**Malifice**

BaconCatBug wrote:
Remember kids, painting your marines black make all plasma weaponry explode more often! /s

If you're silly enough to fire snap shots at a hidden target at ranges of 12+ inches with an overcharged plasma gun, you deserve everything you get!

**Lobokai**

None of this matters until I see Chapter Strategms. Those combined with CT decides top chapter IMO.

**Malifice**

Gibs55 wrote:
I picked Raven Guard

It isn't that hard to deny Deep Strikes and keeping important units outside 12" for the first few turns. Overall it is super strong especially if it stacks with cover to give -2 to hit.

Cover doesnt impose a penalty to hit.

It grants a +1 to your armor save.

**MinscS2**

I think Raven Guard have the best CT, closely followed by Salamanders.

Both of these CT's are powerful, have uses on both melee and ranged units, and they're always sort of active*, and not situational like some of the other CT's.
(*Outside of 12" in the case of RG.)
Ironically (and annoyingly), both of these CT's also encourage their armies to build unfluffy lists:
- Salamanders are encouraged to go MSU, and their CT's encourage heavy weaponry, and not really the close quarters fighting-style they're reknown for. CT has bad synergy with flamers.
- Raven Guard are encouraged to specialize in long range. Their CT benefits their melee-units, but their ranged units benefit more from it, since they're less likely to end up within 12".

As third and fourth, I rate White Scars (assuming you build your list around it) and Imperial Fists (assuming you don't play on a table with way to little terrain).
Unlike Salamanders and Raven Guard, theese 2 CT's don't benefit the whole army:
- White Scars is all about getting stuck in close combat, leaving, shooting with something that isn't stuck in combat and then get stuck again. The benefits to ranged units is small, non-existant if you don't shoot at something that you just fell back from with a different unit.
- Imperial Fists, likewise, gain no benefit at all from their CT on their close combat units.

On fifth place, I place Iron Hands. Their CT is dull (nothing new), but still pretty good since it unlike some of the other CT's are benefiting everyone who has it (be it CC or shooty units), and it's always active.

On sixth and seventh place comes the Ultramarines and the Black Templars. Don't get me wrong, these aren't bad CT's, they're just way to situational.
- Ultramarines gain little benefit from their CT if they're up against shooty opponents who don't really want to engage you in CC to begin with. If you can't utilize that fall back, you end up with a CT that's "only" giving you +1 LD. On the flipside, their CT is one of the strongest if they do end up against a enemy who wants to fight them in CC.
- Black Templars. Also situational. Granted, BT is a melee-chapter fluffwise, so saying "their CT is weak because their shooty units gain no benefit" feels like a weird point to make. Even so, re-roll charge is nice to have, and it can be gamebreaking, but most of the time, that re-roll either isn't needed or doesn't help.

TLDR, overall:

1: Raven Guard.
2: Salamanders.
----
3: White Scars.
4: Imperial Fists.
5: Iron Hands.
----
6: Ultramarines. (Probably 2 or 3 when fighting melee-armies though.)
7: Black Templars.

**Malifice**

Lobukia wrote:
None of this matters until I see Chapter Strategms. Those combined with CT decides top chapter IMO.

I was seriously umming and ahhing about whether to paint my new Priamris as Crimson Fists or Raven Guard.

Raven Guard get cool Forgeworld stuff (those snipers look sexy, and beakies for all!) but I suck at painting black (Abbadon black + drybrush Eshin Grey then hit with a heavy wash of Nuln Oil is my current method).

Plus their Primarch Corax will be returning with some shiny new rules.

Ultimately decided to go Crimson Fists.

Im a bit underwhelmed by the Imperial fists CT though. They also dont look like they're getting any unique strategem.

Unless the Crimson Fist Warlord trait and Relic is damn hot, I'll be repainting the army black.

**Weazel**

As a SW player I'd be most happy with BT tactics, since charging can make or break a game for me.

But SM armies in general might not be as assault oriented as SW so idk. They're all pretty nice in their own way but nothing too OP. Would like to see all stratagems as well.

**Melissia**

We don't know yet. Not all of them are out.

**TMTMTPoS**

In regards to the salamanders and raven guard chapter tactics, I would like to point out the lack of synergy with their special characters. Shrike should always deploy exactly 9" away to maximise squad charge rolls and this means that if enemy units are wiped or charges are failed, they have no CT essentially.

With vulkan, all meltas and flamers get rerolls and considering double rerolls aren't possible one gets ignored (ignoring harath Shen, mir'san and ashmantle for the moment as few people even know they exist)

So, considering this, would any of you change your rankings of the chapters which have greater synergy with their heroes?

**Gibs55**

TMTMTPoS wrote:
In regards to the salamanders and raven guard chapter tactics, I would like to point out the lack of synergy with their special characters. Shrike should always deploy exactly 9" away to maximise squad charge rolls and this means that if enemy units are wiped or charges are failed, they have no CT essentially.

With vulkan, all meltas and flamers get rerolls and considering double rerolls aren't possible one gets ignored (ignoring harath Shen, mir'san and ashmantle for the moment as few people even know they exist)

So, considering this, would any of you change your rankings of the chapters which have greater synergy with their heroes?

Will they stay the same in the codex though? Characters might get a few tweaks.

**TMTMTPoS**

I understand your point but for a character like shrike, how much else can he do? He has a jump pack and two lightning claws, I can't see his rules suddenly changing to favour the new chapter tactics.