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 Traditio wrote:
They've had 30 years, Selym.

Ponder that.

30 years of no real competition and a different leadership. Ponder that.

 Traditio wrote:
They've had 30 years...

If they had one edition, more people might be on board with this sentiment, but they've have 8 editions now and a tremendous amount of extra material like their official supplements and Forge World content. And all of the FW and Supplement content has varied from edition to edition. How can you expect them to balance that?

I'd say any company still kicking after 30 years of maintaining position as the biggest and most popular is doing something right. But hey, logic is overrated amirite?

Anyways. This poll.

Iron Hands article is up. And whilst their Chapter Tactic is indeed a bit ponk, their stratagem seems to make up for it.

Tanks moving and firing without penalty? Including Assault Weapons if it advanced? Cor, yes please Santa. Definitely the one to pick if you're an Astartes Treadhead.

Close call for me. I voted Sallies. Overall effective in all situations. you can use their CT to reroll alongside CPs to reroll which means your devastators or key high damage units will be all that much better when you need it.

Everyone is all about Ravenguard. And my boy CHAPTER MASTER Shrike deserves all the love. But I have yet to play a game where I was not in face to face with my opponent past turn 2. Sure it will help you against select armies.. IG for example. But there are wayyyy to many turn 1 assault armies in the game to make their CT the highlander of CTs... in my opinion anyway.

As an ork player, I think I'd be most concerned with ultrasmurfs. Anything that falls back and shoots me as normal (or with a trifling penalty, in this case) is bound to be frustrating for me.

I can see how raven guard would be annoying for many armies.

I honestly thought salamanders would be pretty weak, but I can see how it would be good in certain situations (like dev squads).

Great job on comparing CTs. but some folks here should maybe step back a bit and calm down. It's not just the CT you get when you play a Chapter, you also get access to their Strategem , Warlord Trait, Relic and Unique Characters (Well, unless you're IH). The IH stategem seems pretty good and could be huge if used correctly.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/20/chapter-focus-iron-hands-july20gw-homepage-post-3/


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 Kap'n Krump wrote:
I honestly thought salamanders would be pretty weak, but I can see how it would be good in certain situations (like dev squads).

It's strong with all the single shot weapons, too. Tac Squad with a Lascannon, Multi-Melta on a Dreadnought and so on. And it also affects melee weapons, I can't see many situations where you won't be able to use this. While I kinda wish for awesome traits etc I hope the other parts of the "Chapter Package" will balance them out compared to the other Chapters.

nekooni wrote:
Great job on comparing CTs. but some folks here should maybe step back a bit and calm down. It's not just the CT you get when you play a Chapter, you also get access to their Strategem , Warlord Trait, Relic and Unique Characters (Well, unless you're IH). The IH stategem seems pretty good and could be huge if used correctly.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/20/chapter-focus-iron-hands-july20gw-homepage-post-3/


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 Kap'n Krump wrote:
I honestly thought salamanders would be pretty weak, but I can see how it would be good in certain situations (like dev squads).

It's strong with all the single shot weapons, too. Tac Squad with a Lascannon, Multi-Melta on a Dreadnought and so on. And it also affects melee weapons, I can't see many situations where you won't be able to use this. While I kinda wish for awesome traits etc I hope the other parts of the "Chapter Package" will balance them out compared to the other Chapters.

This is a thread specifically for "chapter tactics"

yeah most sane people would realize its not the only thing that the marines will get.

I'm surprised there aren't more votes for ultramarines. the rest are mostly roll modifiers but from what I've seen being able to fall back and fire is an insanely powerful ability in every shooty army that can have it. Instead of modifying a roll it gives you much greater tactical flexibility. The best way to deal with marines is to get them in CC, UM just walk away and fire.

Danny slag wrote:
I'm surprised there aren't more votes for ultramarines. the rest are mostly roll modifiers but from what I've seen being able to fall back and fire is an insanely powerful ability in every shooty army that can have it. Instead of modifying a roll it gives you much greater tactical flexibility. The best way to deal with marines is to get them in CC, UM just walk away and fire.

The UM CT is only good against enemies who wants to fight you in close combat, it's totally useless against shooty enemies. I disagree with CC being the best way to deal with marines.

Yeah, just try dealing with my blood angels in close combat. Makes things easier for me

Strongest Chapter Tactic:
Black Templars: 2% [ 8 ]

Can't tell if joke, or 40k's community is really that divided...

I wouldn't call it divided so much as half of us see raven guard as most powerful, a quarter see salamanders as most powerful, and the other quarter of us are split.

 Melissia wrote:
Yeah, just try dealing with my blood angels in close combat. Makes things easier for me

Blood angels while SM are obviously not this codex.

Danny slag wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Yeah, just try dealing with my blood angels in close combat. Makes things easier for me

Blood angels while SM are obviously not this codex.

Almost anything my BA from the index can do, Space Marines from the codex can do.

The salamanders seems really strong for squads that can take special weapons, tacs for example would really benefit. Less so for squads with homogenous lower impact weapon lodouts like all the primaris variants, bolter and bolter variants. The power of a CT seems to really depend on the army build, and I like that they're all good.


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 Melissia wrote:

Danny slag wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Yeah, just try dealing with my blood angels in close combat. Makes things easier for me

Blood angels while SM are obviously not this codex.

Almost anything my BA from the index can do, Space Marines from the codex can do.

Can you take any of these chapter tactics as a blood angles army? No. Next.

Danny slag wrote:
Can you take any of these chapter tactics as a blood angles army? No. Next.

Which only serves to prove me right, given that quite a few of these chapter tactics make marines stronger in close combat than without them.


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Reds8n

Danny slag wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Yeah, just try dealing with my blood angels in close combat. Makes things easier for me

Blood angels while SM are obviously not this codex.

Although, it's worth noting the 40k community site has said that if Blood angels, dark angels and space wolves players want to use the space marine codex for their shared units until their codex drops, they are welcome, enchouraged even, to. use the data sheets in the SM codex for point values etc. which is pretty minor, but since we know for a fact Space Marine Inceptor squads have gotten a points cut, thats good news for ALL Marine players, irregardless of codex, as GW's saying "use those points gentlemen"

 MinscS2 wrote:

Danny slag wrote:
I'm surprised there aren't more votes for ultramarines. the rest are mostly roll modifiers but from what I've seen being able to fall back and fire is an insanely powerful ability in every shooty army that can have it. Instead of modifying a roll it gives you much greater tactical flexibility. The best way to deal with marines is to get them in CC, UM just walk away and fire.

The UM CT is only good against enemies who wants to fight you in close combat, it's totally useless against shooty enemies. I disagree with CC being the best way to deal with marines.

I really haven't found this to be true at all. I put Eversors in basically all of my Imperium armies. They prefer to kill infantry but are perfectly happy to charge a vehicle to tie it up. Imperial Guard Vultures are fantastic for going into hover mode on turn 2 and charging some shooty units to tie them up. Stormravens can do this too but you only really want to do it if you're not going to face much shooting next turn. Sisters' Repressors also really want to get close to you, and they can do it very quickly, and then they'll charge if you show them an appealing target. And yet all of these tend to be found in overall shooty lists.

Eldar are going to charge you with their transports at every opportunity, and also Razorwing Flocks. I'm not that familiar with Chaos but at the very least this seems to be the main function of Heldrakes. Obviously Tyranids and Orks tend to want to be in CC anyway. I'm not sure what most Necron lists are looking like nowadays. Maybe it's a lot of 24" shooting, but they do have Wraiths. Really it's only against Tau and maybe Necrons where I would not expect the UM trait to be consistently useful.

 MinscS2 wrote:

Danny slag wrote:
I'm surprised there aren't more votes for ultramarines. the rest are mostly roll modifiers but from what I've seen being able to fall back and fire is an insanely powerful ability in every shooty army that can have it. Instead of modifying a roll it gives you much greater tactical flexibility. The best way to deal with marines is to get them in CC, UM just walk away and fire.

The UM CT is only good against enemies who wants to fight you in close combat, it's totally useless against shooty enemies. I disagree with CC being the best way to deal with marines.

However, it can be used offensively.

For example, everyone already knows 80% of Marines aren't really great in melee for the most part. However, to stay safe from shooting you have the ability to charge and maybe do a little damage, and then your opponent has two choices:
1. Fall back themselves to open up the squad to shooting
2. Keep in combat to hope for more damage, and then you decide to fall back and shoot.


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 Selym wrote:
Strongest Chapter Tactic:
Black Templars: 2% [ 8 ]

Can't tell if joke, or 40k's community is really that divided...

I personally consider them the best due to real alpha strike potential.

Danny slag wrote:
I'm surprised there aren't more votes for ultramarines. the rest are mostly roll modifiers but from what I've seen being able to fall back and fire is an insanely powerful ability in every shooty army that can have it. Instead of modifying a roll it gives you much greater tactical flexibility. The best way to deal with marines is to get them in CC, UM just walk away and fire.

Well, the question is, how many units really benefit from this dramatically more than just staying in melee combat. Normal tactical squads for example are basically going to be more dangerous if they don't fall back generally, saying the special weapon firing at -1 and heavy at -2, versus the same number knee of str 4 attacks as you'd get with a rapid fire bolters without the -1. For heavy weapon squads like devastators or rifleman dreads it is useful, but you are still firing at half normal accuracy, possibly having taken casualties to boot for the devastators.

It looks good on units loaded up with special weapons (or heavy weapons if they can move and fire without penalty), but otherwise just letting them be charged has already severely compromised their firepower to the point this tactic isn't getting you a ton of gain. So that'd be mostly centurion devastators and bike squads, maybe the new primaris hellblaster unit. Even things like sternguard and company veterans have extra attacks and bolt pistols to make this a questionable choice, unless you plan to have other units open fire after they fall back in which case their contribution is still kinda minimal.

It's not awful, but the number of units it's useful on is limited, the number of armies it's useful against is also lower than many others, and it's impact even when used is questionable.

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Reds8n



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SilverAlien wrote:

Danny slag wrote:
I'm surprised there aren't more votes for ultramarines. the rest are mostly roll modifiers but from what I've seen being able to fall back and fire is an insanely powerful ability in every shooty army that can have it. Instead of modifying a roll it gives you much greater tactical flexibility. The best way to deal with marines is to get them in CC, UM just walk away and fire.

Well, the question is, how many units really benefit from this dramatically more than just staying in melee combat. Normal tactical squads for example are basically going to be more dangerous if they don't fall back generally, saying the special weapon firing at -1 and heavy at -2, versus the same number knee of str 4 attacks as you'd get with a rapid fire bolters without the -1. For heavy weapon squads like devastators or rifleman dreads it is useful, but you are still firing at half normal accuracy, possibly having taken casualties to boot for the devastators.

It looks good on units loaded up with special weapons (or heavy weapons if they can move and fire without penalty), but otherwise just letting them be charged has already severely compromised their firepower to the point this tactic isn't getting you a ton of gain. So that'd be mostly centurion devastators and bike squads, maybe the new primaris hellblaster unit. Even things like sternguard and company veterans have extra attacks and bolt pistols to make this a questionable choice, unless you plan to have other units open fire after they fall back in which case their contribution is still kinda minimal.

It's not awful, but the number of units it's useful on is limited, the number of armies it's useful against is also lower than many others, and it's impact even when used is questionable.

I like it for the tactical flexibility it offers, it might not be a directly measurable power bump like a +x modifier or reroll, but it opens up tactical moves to you that an army without that fall back ability wouldn't have. like you said it's not great on every unit in a 1x1 math, but I think on the table it'll be much more useful than it seems.

Malifice wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
None of this matters until I see Chapter Strategms. Those combined with CT decides top chapter IMO.

I was seriously umming and ahhing about whether to paint my new Priamris as Crimson Fists or Raven Guard.

Raven Guard get cool Forgeworld stuff (those snipers look sexy, and beakies for all!) but I suck at painting black (Abbadon black + drybrush Eshin Grey then hit with a heavy wash of Nuln Oil is my current method).

Plus their Primarch Corax will be returning with some shiny new rules.

Ultimately decided to go Crimson Fists.

Im a bit underwhelmed by the Imperial fists CT though. They also dont look like they're getting any unique strategem.

Unless the Crimson Fist Warlord trait and Relic is damn hot, I'll be repainting the army black.

What is your source on a return of Corax?
Also on Black Painting (Vallejo Matte Black is perfect, with a light silver or grey drybrush is how to go) Your painting your Crimson Fists Black?

I originally said RG was the strongest, but I think I would like to change my vote to Salamanders. While RG is great outside the 12", the Salamanders is just all around more versatile and easier to build around. Sallies I think will prove to come out ahead in the long run.