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Arachnofiend wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 argonak wrote:

Whether you're right or wrong about the points balance, you need to give GW credit for making the adjustments they're doing. They've shown they're willing to look at things and change them within a single month of release.

That is incredible. To someone who has been playing GW games on and off for 25 years. . . there has never been anything like this. I just hope they stick with it.

That's not incredible, it's appalling.

Incredible would be GW getting it right the first time around so that adjustment wasn't necessary in the first place.

Incredible is the right word there, because perfect day 1 balance is a completely unreasonable expectation that no game company has ever achieved.

No kidding. It would go against every standard for balance in competitive gaming. The important thing is that they are actively soliciting feedback - see the rapid speed at which we have seen FAQs.

Games Workshop got a fix out faster than Relic did for DoW3; not something I expected.

Arachnofiend wrote:

Incredible is the right word there, because perfect day 1 balance is a completely unreasonable expectation that no game company has ever achieved.

Perfect balance isn't required. Good enough balance, as in not bad enough to warrant immediate correction, shouldn't be an unreasonable expectation from 'the most playtested edition ever'...

The play testing is supposed to happen before the book is printed, not after.

 insaniak wrote:

Arachnofiend wrote:

Incredible is the right word there, because perfect day 1 balance is a completely unreasonable expectation that no game company has ever achieved.

Perfect balance isn't required. Good enough balance, as in not bad enough to warrant immediate correction, shouldn't be an unreasonable expectation from 'the most playtested edition ever'...

The play testing is supposed to happen before the book is printed, not after.

Yeah, they really should have released playtest versions of the game prior to the codices. The Indices should not have been printed materials, let alone paid.

 niv-mizzet wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Talamare wrote:

pm713 wrote:
How is Azrael a problem?

4++ Aura?

Oh the one that was nerfed? It's hardly a problem.

Girlyman gets to massively buff everything nearby, come back to life and of course gets the rare Ld10 for some reason.

yeah god forbid a fething PRIMARCH, having LDR 10.

Mgnus the red also has LDR 10. Complaining about quite literally the greatest leaders in the 40k universe having the highest LDR score is outright silly.

What I think is incredibly silly is that the bland rank-and-file necrons also sport ld10. Random cannon fodder necrons are, each and every one of them, the strategic equals of freaking primarchs.

Ork boyz are ld30.

 bullyboy wrote:
Don't buy that the new GW care about balance at all, not while Bobby G remains at his ridiculous points level. The points need to be closer to 450 or he needs to lose "reroll to wound" and the ability to bounce back (or he just bounces back with 1 wound remaining).
I understand he is a primarch and should be a beast, but the points are not justified.

Yep that what I said on their facebook page too, that codex IS a joke atm.
We are not suggesting a +/-10% points change, he needs to cost AT LEAST 470+ points for what he brings

 argonak wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
Don't buy that the new GW care about balance at all, not while Bobby G remains at his ridiculous points level. The points need to be closer to 450 or he needs to lose "reroll to wound" and the ability to bounce back (or he just bounces back with 1 wound remaining).
I understand he is a primarch and should be a beast, but the points are not justified.

Whether you're right or wrong about the points balance, you need to give GW credit for making the adjustments they're doing. They've shown they're willing to look at things and change them within a single month of release.

That is incredible. To someone who has been playing GW games on and off for 25 years. . . there has never been anything like this. I just hope they stick with it.

Not having to wait 8 years for an update. . . I'm just giddy.

Honestly i hope they continue and bring all the codex out in a timely manor, getting the game in a good standing For the future

 insaniak wrote:

Arachnofiend wrote:

Incredible is the right word there, because perfect day 1 balance is a completely unreasonable expectation that no game company has ever achieved.

Perfect balance isn't required. Good enough balance, as in not bad enough to warrant immediate correction, shouldn't be an unreasonable expectation from 'the most playtested edition ever'...

The play testing is supposed to happen before the book is printed, not after.

Someone has a fundamental misunderstanding of how balancing works

Cindis wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

Arachnofiend wrote:

Incredible is the right word there, because perfect day 1 balance is a completely unreasonable expectation that no game company has ever achieved.

Perfect balance isn't required. Good enough balance, as in not bad enough to warrant immediate correction, shouldn't be an unreasonable expectation from 'the most playtested edition ever'...

The play testing is supposed to happen before the book is printed, not after.

Someone has a fundamental misunderstanding of how balancing works

I'd argue he also has a fundamental misunderstanding of how play testing works. as do most of the people who scream that any errors is "proof" they didn't play test properly.

Cindis wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

Arachnofiend wrote:

Incredible is the right word there, because perfect day 1 balance is a completely unreasonable expectation that no game company has ever achieved.

Perfect balance isn't required. Good enough balance, as in not bad enough to warrant immediate correction, shouldn't be an unreasonable expectation from 'the most playtested edition ever'...

The play testing is supposed to happen before the book is printed, not after.

Someone has a fundamental misunderstanding of how balancing works

Tell me how many days GW have been in business.

KurtAngle2 wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
Don't buy that the new GW care about balance at all, not while Bobby G remains at his ridiculous points level. The points need to be closer to 450 or he needs to lose "reroll to wound" and the ability to bounce back (or he just bounces back with 1 wound remaining).
I understand he is a primarch and should be a beast, but the points are not justified.

Yep that what I said on their facebook page too, that codex IS a joke atm.
We are not suggesting a +/-10% points change, he needs to cost AT LEAST 470+ points for what he brings

I would literally never even consider running him at that value. You could just always upgrade a captain to a chapter master and bring a LT if you wanted to mimic his aura, and in doing so save up to or even over 300 points depending on how blingy you want the characters to be. Saves a detachment slot too. See also the Pedro-star above.

He should be priced competitively enough to run in a good list. I don't even see him at events right now. Maybe he just happens to be buried underneath all the brimstone horrors when I happen to walk by?

 niv-mizzet wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
Don't buy that the new GW care about balance at all, not while Bobby G remains at his ridiculous points level. The points need to be closer to 450 or he needs to lose "reroll to wound" and the ability to bounce back (or he just bounces back with 1 wound remaining).
I understand he is a primarch and should be a beast, but the points are not justified.

Yep that what I said on their facebook page too, that codex IS a joke atm.
We are not suggesting a +/-10% points change, he needs to cost AT LEAST 470+ points for what he brings

I would literally never even consider running him at that value. You could just always upgrade a captain to a chapter master and bring a LT if you wanted to mimic his aura, and in doing so save up to or even over 300 points depending on how blingy you want the characters to be. Saves a detachment slot too. See also the Pedro-star above.

He should be priced competitively enough to run in a good list. I don't even see him at events right now. Maybe he just happens to be buried underneath all the brimstone horrors when I happen to walk by?

I suspect when the codex hits we're more apt to see salamanders (who won't need the buff buble as much) and raven guard being the top contenders.

I think salamander tactics will only be used in very TAC lists where the assault and shooting elements will be very divided from each other therefore losing out on that bubble.

But I haven't seen any really good TAC lists yet. They all still focus on shooting,

Cindis wrote:

Someone has a fundamental misunderstanding of how balancing works

Feel free to illuminate me, then.

Or don't. I don't really care, frankly. GW have had 20 years now to get this right. They're still making the same mistakes they were making 20 years ago. The fact that they're fixing them more quickly is certainly an improvement, but it's a long way from being incredible. If I slice my finger every single time I use a pair of scissors, the fact that after the 147th time I work out that going and getting a bandaid straight away instead of waiting for a day and a half isn't a particularly impressive achievement. At some point, you would expect that I would learn how to use the damn scissors.

I think his points are about right. Considering - marines suck in melle and in order to buff shooting units he has to stand on the back lines. He can not utilize his melle power and buffing abilities except for maybe 1 turn (if the enemy is coming at him).

Don't get me wrong - he is one of the best values in the game and I think he elevates Ultramarines to the strongest chapter BUT hes not magnus level broken. I could see an increase to maybe 400 points - but after that - I think I'd be better off taking 3-4 HQ's.

Also - rerolls are not as effective in this game compared to 7th. rerolling after modifiers makes rerolls much less effective if you have minus to hit for whatever huge amounts of sources offer this stuff.

I played a game yesterday against Marines with Guiliman. He had a relatively balanced list that was competitive but fun to play against...except for Guilly.
I, on the other hand, was trying something silly - 3 WraithKnights, 2 of which were the Skathach WKs.

Despite dropping in a deleting his 2 Las Preds (the 2 units I saw as the biggest threat to my WKs), he managed to immediately return the favor and drop 2 of my WKs with the rest of his force.
This included 2 Rifle Dreads, 2 Assault cannon Razorbacks and 3-4 marine units with Plasma and Grav.

He should not have been able to do this, but with everything re-rolling hits AND wounds, his army had essentially double the firepower.

Guilly is only appropriately costed if you take his re-rolls away, otherwise he basically doubles you army's firepower for free.

-

 bullyboy wrote:

 Vryce wrote:

 Galas wrote:
I think he is actually overcosted. Wheres the point of having Guilliman when you can take more Stormravens?

He and Magnus should be made minimun 50-150 points cheaper.

Magnus is a steal for his cost. If he was 150pts cheaper, he would easily be the most broken single model in the game.

That being said, I don't really think Guilliman is all that spectacular. He is a great buff character, but as a combatant, I've never been terribly afraid of him. I don't own the SM Index, so am unsure of his cost, but I don't see him incredibly often, so he must not be that much of a boon, at least for my general gaming circle.

are you serious...he one shotted a knight in combat, and the knight charged!

Reroll all hits and all wounds within 6" is insane...basically it's a case of what is the weapons' ROF? OK, I'll attempt that many armour saves, no reason to roll to hit or wound. In combat he is ridiculous, hitting on 2's with rerolls....S8 with sword so wounding pretty consistently....with rerolls of course. Heck, if you roll any 6's to wound he causes additional D3 mortal wounds. Any real wounds get through...translates to 3 wounds each.

Then of course he has the 3+ invuln and if he happens to die, he has a good chance of standing back up (save that command point). Command Points? He gives you an extra 3...because, yeah.

If you don't think he is worth 360pts, then you really don't know how this game works. The buffs alone and extra command points are probably worth 100pts, easily.

Italicized comment is anecdotal evidence. While possible, it is statistically unlikely. I had Abbadon one game smash a buffed up Swarmlord after being charged. While a game changer, I would -never- expect that to be a common occurance. As many people have stated already, Guilliman has a distinct lack of appearance in competetive lists/events. Other than the mortal wounds on 6's and the reanimation, a group of other characters can mimic his abilities for less or similar points, and don't require a separate detachment to take them. And for the most part, to fully take advantage of the buffs he gives, Rowboat is stuck anchoring a gunline, so you're unlikely to see him perform those amazing feats of "One-shotting a Renegade Knight after being charged".

As for 'not knowing how this game works', I understand it just fine. Almost every other named character hits on 2+, and have re-rolls of 1 they can take advantage of. Magnus can. Azreal can. Abbadon can. So that's nothing special. Other than Magnus, the other two I mentioned cost at least 100pts less than Guilliman. So he is paying that 100pts for the buffs and extra CP's.

Played him once myself, he put approx 19 wounds on my wraith Lord in one round of combat. His gun alone is outstanding, then that sword....ouch.
It's the rerolling all wounds that is OTT. Reroll wounds of 1 would be far more reasonable. And that Pedro Cantor star? Gully would bitch slap it like it wasn't even there.

I was obviously joking, yes. Magnus and Guilliman are one of the most powerfull units in the game. And I don't find that as a bad thing. They SHOULD be powerfull. But they should pay for that.

Guilliman should go up like 20-25% in points. Magnus, the same.
And I think Saint Celestine as much as I love and use her, should be up like 10-15% in cost.

Personally I prefer small adjustement to reach the sweet spot instead of balancing from one extreme to the other. I understand that when the only balance changes you do are 5 years apart, you can't do small steps.
But with the new "faqs" system to rebalance the game, they can do changes every month, or two or three.

 Galef wrote:
I played a game yesterday against Marines with Guiliman. He had a relatively balanced list that was competitive but fun to play against...except for Guilly.
I, on the other hand, was trying something silly - 3 WraithKnights, 2 of which were the Skathach WKs.

Despite dropping in a deleting his 2 Las Preds (the 2 units I saw as the biggest threat to my WKs), he managed to immediately return the favor and drop 2 of my WKs with the rest of his force.
This included 2 Rifle Dreads, 2 Assault cannon Razorbacks and 3-4 marine units with Plasma and Grav.

He should not have been able to do this, but with everything re-rolling hits AND wounds, his army had essentially double the firepower.

Guilly is only appropriately costed if you take his re-rolls away, otherwise he basically doubles you army's firepower for free.

-

I think we all can agree that WK are pretty terrible in this edition. They need a point reduction. They aren't hard to kill. If we are talking equal power level stuff. If you took 3 hemlocks and parked them 60 inches away from the powerball. You could easily Nape all Gullis support and he can't do gak against a flyer. As always there are good units and bad units.

I played against Guilliman recently, and I think his cost would be about right if he could be targeted, because then you could focus him down.

Being a character with less than 10 wounds is astonishingly powerful for durability this game.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I played against Guilliman recently, and I think his cost would be about right if he could be targeted, because then you could focus him down.

Being a character with less than 10 wounds is astonishingly powerful for durability this game.

Hummm - if you could target him he would be absolutely worthless. He is deliberately gimped in wounds so he can't be targeted.

Looking at a similar "build" using my Dark Angels..

Azrael 180pts
Apothecary 55pts
Primaris Lieutenant 70pts

305pts, 55pts less than Gully (no upgrades on the Lieu)

4+ invuln save for them instead of 3+
1 command point vs 3
S and T 4 vs 6
Guns don't dish out anywhere near the same damage
Sword of secrets nowhere near as good as emperors sword
add one to charges for units within 12" for gully.
Reroll all wounds, not just of 1. That is huge....

Sorry, it's not close, not at all.

 bullyboy wrote:
Looking at a similar "build" using my Dark Angels..

Azrael 180pts
Apothecary 55pts
Primaris Lieutenant 70pts

305pts, 55pts less than Gully (no upgrades on the Lieu)

4+ invuln save for them instead of 3+
1 command point vs 3
S and T 4 vs 6
Guns don't dish out anywhere near the same damage
Sword of secrets nowhere near as good as emperors sword
add one to charges for units within 12" for gully.
Reroll all wounds, not just of 1. That is huge....

Sorry, it's not close, not at all.

Why did you take a garbage apothecary? Prim lieutenant I think is only rerolling wounds in CC. Basically remove both of those. Just take Azreal and a bunch of las cannon devs. Your firepower will be almost as good because you have 4 additional las cannons in your aura and you will be much harder to kill. Also - Azreal fills and HQ requirement - Gulli is a lord of war. So he must also take antoher HQ to run a real army. Since guillis auras are so good - all the other aruas are wasted - so basically your HQ is a tax at this point.

I'm not going to comment on how good or not, or how over/under costed or not he is, but to the point of not being seen in competitive lists, he appears at the ETC 22 times out of 194 lists. That's about 11.5% of all the lists, across all factions. I'd hardly call that "never seeing him".

Magnus shows up 7 times.

Abaddon? 1.

Pedro Kantor? 0.

Azrael is actually the next best at 13.

Yeah - anyone playing ultra marines is taking gulliman - I'm not debating that. Azreal will be is most DA armies. Magnus will be in most if not all thousand sons lists.

You are really just talking about army popularity looking at how many times you see these guys and tournaments.

 Galas wrote:

And I think Saint Celestine as much as I love and use her, should be up like 10-15% in cost.

Slightly off-topic, but I'd rather St. Celestine was just toned down a bit, rather than made excessively expensive. e.g. drop her strength by a point or two, drop her attacks to 5, knock off a wound or two, make Healing Tears require an Act of Faith. Any of those, really.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I played against Guilliman recently, and I think his cost would be about right if he could be targeted, because then you could focus him down.

Being a character with less than 10 wounds is astonishingly powerful for durability this game.

Hummm - if you could target him he would be absolutely worthless. He is deliberately gimped in wounds so he can't be targeted.

TIL 9 wounds dividing damage in half 2+ 3++ with the possibility to resurrect yourself is "Gimped".

the_scotsman wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I played against Guilliman recently, and I think his cost would be about right if he could be targeted, because then you could focus him down.

Being a character with less than 10 wounds is astonishingly powerful for durability this game.

Hummm - if you could target him he would be absolutely worthless. He is deliberately gimped in wounds so he can't be targeted.

TIL 9 wounds dividing damage in half 2+ 3++ with the possibility to resurrect yourself is "Gimped".

No kidding.

His durability, as a character, is astonishing. It's essentially "immune to the game", and by the time you kill everything else he's immune to what you have left through saves + ressurection + being able to murder most of the threats himself.

I won the game against him, but I was shocked at how it was - most armies have important characters and whatnot, but I felt like I was moving mountains to go after Guilliman and I still didn't even get him to fall over the first time.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I played against Guilliman recently, and I think his cost would be about right if he could be targeted, because then you could focus him down.

Being a character with less than 10 wounds is astonishingly powerful for durability this game.

Hummm - if you could target him he would be absolutely worthless. He is deliberately gimped in wounds so he can't be targeted.

TIL 9 wounds dividing damage in half 2+ 3++ with the possibility to resurrect yourself is "Gimped".

Yeah, it's a bit weird when characters with more survivability than many tanks still aren't considered durable enough for you to be allowed to shoot them.

Honestly though, I think the wound cap was made too high. I think 7 would have been a better shut-off point. 8-9 wound models tend to be much larger than standard infantry and really shouldn't be able to hide amongst them.