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I'm sure that "bigbaboonass" is just joking, because otherwise, that's just ridiculous...

That's pretty bad sportsmanship on your opponents behalf. I'm not sure about how Devil Fish come packaged, but I doubt they'd give it a flight stand as its not a flyer. Really wouldn't be a big deal but if he's claiming an unfair advantage by using it it(Skimmer Immune to Melee) I think that would fall into modeling for advantage...

Your opponent is a jerk.

I know this forum is RAW or HYWPI but I think that attitude is probably not the best one to have with 8th anyways (RAW or go home is like, a 5th edition mindset imo).

The rules in this case have a glaring loophole that was not fixed and probably not even caught in testing because most people try to have at least a modicum of sportsmanship when they play.

This kind of reminds me of the time my opponent brought a ton of bomb squigs to a hammerhead party thinking he was being clever....



I highly doubt the RAI of Hover was to make skimmers immune to close combat. But the Core Rules do not make any mention of vertical space in close combat. Meaning for instance, your Sluggas could not charge a squad on the 2nd floor of a ruin, unless at least 1 Slugga can make it up to the 2nd floor, while staying in unit coherency (2" horizontal, 6" vertical).

That said, because there is a guideline on vertical coherency, it seems fair to apply it to close combat. As a house rule, I would suggest that you should be able to combat the Hover tank if your model's base is within 1" of the hull horizontally, or within 3" vertically (and those models in your 2nd rank, who are 1" away from your frontline models horizontally, or 3" vertically), keeping it aligned with the coherency rules. Or, if it's that tall that you have no problems getting within 1" of the flyer base, then the evident purpose of the Hover rule is basically moot, and you should just as well regard the model in combat as not having the rule (and measuring from the base) for the purposes of determining who can fight.

If he wants to hover on top of an ammo crate, he can still do that (and that would be patently tactical, and smart) but nullifying all close combat with your opponents on flat earth because you used the taller flying stem, is basically horse-poop.

 Blood_Drunk wrote:
That's pretty bad sportsmanship on your opponents behalf. I'm not sure about how Devil Fish come packaged, but I doubt they'd give it a flight stand as its not a flyer. Really wouldn't be a big deal but if he's claiming an unfair advantage by using it it(Skimmer Immune to Melee) I think that would fall into modeling for advantage...

It is supplied with the 60mm hover base and has a hole pre-drilled for the stand. You can model it with the 3 feet deployed ore retracted.

OP's opponent definitely TFG'ing though, I'd shake his hand, give him the win and pack up never to play him again.

Just saying AoS has in the FAQ that vertical ranges can basically completely prevent a model from being in melee

Q: Some very short models, such as Goblins, are not able to
attack models on flying stands, as the distance between the two
models exceeds the range of the smaller model’s weapon. Is there
any way for the smaller model to attack in such a situation?

A: No – it will need to find some scenery upon which
to stand in order to reach the flying model. Likewise,
the flying model would be unable to attack those small
models unable to reach it, should its melee weapon not
have the range to do so

I understand this is not AoS, but it is the same company. So it does create some potential precedence.

AoS also measures model to model and the bases are ignored. Therefore for something above it, you'd measure from the head of the model and not it's base.

Does anything prevent you from laying your model on it's back so that it's base is 1" vertical instead of 1" horizontal? I don't see any place in the rules that models must be standing up.

Yeah, I know it's a TFG answer.

Well it's the rules and while it might make for a funny "haha" between you and your opponent after that he should let you CC the Devil Fish. If not accept that GW are some of the worst rules writers on the market, and talk to your opponent who has skimmers pre-game.
If he insists on you not being able to assault then you have saved yourself the trouble of getting your models out to play him.

In a tournament you are pretty much stuck with RAW so just accept you will need to shoot hover tanks down rather than assault them.

Meanwhile e-mail GW and hopefully they will promptly FAQ the hover tank rule to say "When measuring to the hull of a hover tank or skimmer for the purpose of assault ignore the vertical distance of the flight stand."

Youn wrote:
Does anything prevent you from laying your model on it's back so that it's base is 1" vertical instead of 1" horizontal? I don't see any place in the rules that models must be standing up.

Yeah, I know it's a TFG answer.

For a TFG problem.

Youn wrote:
Does anything prevent you from laying your model on it's back so that it's base is 1" vertical instead of 1" horizontal? I don't see any place in the rules that models must be standing up.

Yeah, I know it's a TFG answer.

I love it.

 yakface wrote:

Youn wrote:
Does anything prevent you from laying your model on it's back so that it's base is 1" vertical instead of 1" horizontal? I don't see any place in the rules that models must be standing up.

Yeah, I know it's a TFG answer.

I love it.

Ha. Glorious.

Exalted, actually.

Ooh, also: GW doesn't spell out what the Base truly is. In that, if you wanted to you could presumably build your model on a scenic base and it would still be a base. Just make it a tall base, some rubble or corkboard.

I know it's already been covered in this thread; but just adding the relevant section that explicitly calls out how measurement is conducted.

Clearly, it's not RAI, but it is RAW. As Talamere pointed out, for YMDA, this is the important part - but as everyone else pointed out, for actual gameplay, it's totally TFG; and not someone I'd play against if they tried to pull this.

There's also the section on vertical movement and measurements, but I won't quote that here as well.

Page 176, Core Rules - "Tools of War" (column)

"All distances are measured in inches (") between the closest points of the bases of the models you're measuring to and from. If a model does not have a base, such is the case with many vehicles, measure to and from the closest point of that model's hull instead."

It's thumpingly obvious what the intent of the rule is. Never play this person again; clearly a melt.

Because Close combat stipulates you can be up to base to base contact, and RAW you use the hull when measuring to the skimmers base, just climb on top of the tank. you're technically base to base, and the rules don't stipulate what part of the hull you have to be in contact with. for those with awkward hulls (Like the Devilfish) Use WMS to resolve, you can get on top of the tank as there is nothing occupying it, but I doubt you want the paintwork scratched. of course, only do this to TFG's, not the good people here on Dakka.