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Hi,

Sorry if this question has been addressed before but I couldn't find anything.

Recently I had a situation in which I tried to assault a skimmer with my Boyz and then I was told that I could not get within 1" of the skimmer since distances to and from the skimmer are measured from the hull. Measuring from the Boyz bases to the skimmer indeed I could not get within 1". For me this does not make sense somehow.

How do you guys handle this situation?

If a model as a base you measure to the base

 CrownAxe wrote:
If a model as a base you measure to the base

Unless otherwise stated, e.g. Repulsor.

 Hanskrampf wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
If a model as a base you measure to the base

Unless otherwise stated, e.g. Repulsor.

Exactly. To be precise it was a Devilfish. There it is stated that you measure from the hull. How do you play this issue?

Blub wrote:
Exactly. To be precise it was a Devilfish. There it is stated that you measure from the hull. How do you play this issue?

How can you not get your model's bases within 1" of a Devilfish's hull?

 yakface wrote:

Blub wrote:
Exactly. To be precise it was a Devilfish. There it is stated that you measure from the hull. How do you play this issue?

How can you not get your model's bases within 1" of a Devilfish's hull?

Flight stands came in 2 sizes; both are over an inch tall.

IIRC the stems were something like 1.25" and 1.75" or 1.5 and 2.

Oh, and top of the flight base saucer is about the same height as a slotta base.

Yeah, your opponent is being TFG and modelling for advantage. Skimmers don't magically become immune to close combat.

Skimmers don't come standard with a flyer base. As he has oversized his base he would have to accept your models being able to ignore the base or measure to the base.

Or are you saying you measured vertically from the hull to the bases of your assaulters? I have never seen that done. When shooting or moving does he measure 2" to the ground first then outwards? As long as you are within 1" horizontally you are in combat imho

 S.e.r.a.p.h.i.m wrote:
Skimmers don't come standard with a flyer base. As he has oversized his base he would have to accept your models being able to ignore the base or measure to the base.

Or are you saying you measured vertically from the hull to the bases of your assaulters? I have never seen that done. When shooting or moving does he measure 2" to the ground first then outwards? As long as you are within 1" horizontally you are in combat imho

That base has been traditionally called a 'flight stand'. The base pictures on the Devilfish is listed on GW's website as a Citadel Flying Stem with 60mm Flying Base.

It does feel quite the goof on that Hover Tank rule.

Edit: feels like it was meant to avoid odd LOS behaviour with small stand vs big hull. But it falls down on the close combat bit.

 S.e.r.a.p.h.i.m wrote:
Skimmers don't come standard with a flyer base. As he has oversized his base he would have to accept your models being able to ignore the base or measure to the base.

Or are you saying you measured vertically from the hull to the bases of your assaulters? I have never seen that done. When shooting or moving does he measure 2" to the ground first then outwards? As long as you are within 1" horizontally you are in combat imho

Correct. My opponent insisted on measuring vertically from hull to base. Similar to when you stand on terrain which is 1.1" high and you try to attack from below. I understand the logic behind it but still it feels wrong to me.

Blub wrote:

 S.e.r.a.p.h.i.m wrote:
Skimmers don't come standard with a flyer base. As he has oversized his base he would have to accept your models being able to ignore the base or measure to the base.

Or are you saying you measured vertically from the hull to the bases of your assaulters? I have never seen that done. When shooting or moving does he measure 2" to the ground first then outwards? As long as you are within 1" horizontally you are in combat imho

Correct. My opponent insisted on measuring vertically from hull to base. Similar to when you stand on terrain which is 1.1" high and you try to attack from below. I understand the logic behind it but still it feels wrong to me.

If you can move your guys so that their faces are literally touching the hull then you have made the charge, no matter if the actual hull is 1.5" from the ground. Your opponent is a jerk.

 Weazel wrote:

Blub wrote:

 S.e.r.a.p.h.i.m wrote:
Skimmers don't come standard with a flyer base. As he has oversized his base he would have to accept your models being able to ignore the base or measure to the base.

Or are you saying you measured vertically from the hull to the bases of your assaulters? I have never seen that done. When shooting or moving does he measure 2" to the ground first then outwards? As long as you are within 1" horizontally you are in combat imho

Correct. My opponent insisted on measuring vertically from hull to base. Similar to when you stand on terrain which is 1.1" high and you try to attack from below. I understand the logic behind it but still it feels wrong to me.

If you can move your guys so that their faces are literally touching the hull then you have made the charge, no matter if the actual hull is 1.5" from the ground. Your opponent is a jerk.

I don't think the name calling is appropriate

This seems like a legit goof on GWs behalf

Hover Tank rules specifically state that you must measure to the Hull
He was just playing exactly how he was told to play it.

 Talamare wrote:

 Weazel wrote:

Blub wrote:

 S.e.r.a.p.h.i.m wrote:
Skimmers don't come standard with a flyer base. As he has oversized his base he would have to accept your models being able to ignore the base or measure to the base.

Or are you saying you measured vertically from the hull to the bases of your assaulters? I have never seen that done. When shooting or moving does he measure 2" to the ground first then outwards? As long as you are within 1" horizontally you are in combat imho

Correct. My opponent insisted on measuring vertically from hull to base. Similar to when you stand on terrain which is 1.1" high and you try to attack from below. I understand the logic behind it but still it feels wrong to me.

If you can move your guys so that their faces are literally touching the hull then you have made the charge, no matter if the actual hull is 1.5" from the ground. Your opponent is a jerk.

I don't think the name calling is appropriate

This seems like a legit goof on GWs behalf

Hover Tank rules specifically state that you must measure to the Hull
He was just playing exactly how he was told to play it.

Not saying it isn't a goof, but you can just use wobbly model syndrome and state that they're hovering in the air in base contact with the hull (granted the charge distance was sufficient). And I'm sorry if somebody hurt his or her feelings but I'm not afraid to call someone names if they pull stuff like that against me.

That is not what WMS does...

 JohnnyHell wrote:
That is not what WMS does...

It is unclear what WMS does to be honest, the wording is ambiguous at best. GW suggested using WMS if you cannot physically fit any charging models on a fully crowded level of a ruin you are charging into, so you can probably imagine what the spirit of WMS is.

Also in the spirit of the game you just cannot pull off shenanigans presented by the OP. However RAW that might be. Edit: Or you surely can but don't be surprised when called names for it.

 Weazel wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
That is not what WMS does...

It is unclear what WMS does to be honest, the wording is ambiguous at best. GW suggested using WMS if you cannot physically fit any charging models on a fully crowded level of a ruin you are charging into, so you can probably imagine what the spirit of WMS is.

Also in the spirit of the game you just cannot pull off shenanigans presented by the OP. However RAW that might be. Edit: Or you surely can but don't be surprised when called names for it.

No one cares about the "spirit" of the game in YMDC
There is either
Rules as Worded or How I would play it.

I agree that I wouldn't play it that way, because it's a broken rule. However, RAW the guy was correct.

Finally, this forum is about discussing rules. Not calling people out.
No one cares if the guy was being a TFG or not. No one cares if you would insult someone in real life.
We care about the rules, and the correct way to play.

Also, there is just a general rule in DakkaDakka that basically states do not insult people.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Q: How do vertical distances work for measurements?
A: All distances are measured in three dimensions

 Talamare wrote:

 Weazel wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
That is not what WMS does...

It is unclear what WMS does to be honest, the wording is ambiguous at best. GW suggested using WMS if you cannot physically fit any charging models on a fully crowded level of a ruin you are charging into, so you can probably imagine what the spirit of WMS is.

Also in the spirit of the game you just cannot pull off shenanigans presented by the OP. However RAW that might be. Edit: Or you surely can but don't be surprised when called names for it.

No one cares about the "spirit" of the game in YMDC
There is either
Rules as Worded or How I would play it.

I agree that I wouldn't play it that way, because it's a broken rule. However, RAW the guy was correct.

Finally, this forum is about discussing rules. Not calling people out.
No one cares if the guy was being a TFG or not. No one cares if you would insult someone in real life.
We care about the rules, and the correct way to play.

Also, there is just a general rule in DakkaDakka that basically states do not insult people.

Fair enough. Just for the record the only person I have insulted is the vague "opponent" who AFAIK isn't even taking part in the conversation.

But I have offered my 2 cents whatever that counts for.

This is an interesting idea, I might have to use it to protect Raiders from Close Combat. Looks like another one for the list of questions GW will never fix (like the advancing denying assault weapons idiocy).

Or you can model all your ork Boyz with extra bases in their hands for swatting flying units. I would totally allow you to do that and hit a flyer, that would be funny to see and a total ork solution to the problem.



Jokes aside I understand where your opponent was coming from but if someone played that way with me I would simply inform them that in that case this will be our last game, play so both sides have fun not so you can be a rule lawyer and make it fun for only yourself, making the game difficult for your opponent.

So in the end this situation is crying out for a house rule. Both sides have a point so it is better to clarify that prior the match.

Azuza001 wrote:
Or you can model all your ork Boyz with extra bases in their hands for swatting flying units. I would totally allow you to do that and hit a flyer, that would be funny to see and a total ork solution to the problem.



Jokes aside I understand where your opponent was coming from but if someone played that way with me I would simply inform them that in that case this will be our last game, play so both sides have fun not so you can be a rule lawyer and make it fun for only yourself, making the game difficult for your opponent.

Model the extra bases as hats, it's a new Orkish style.

 doctortom wrote:

Azuza001 wrote:
Or you can model all your ork Boyz with extra bases in their hands for swatting flying units. I would totally allow you to do that and hit a flyer, that would be funny to see and a total ork solution to the problem.



Jokes aside I understand where your opponent was coming from but if someone played that way with me I would simply inform them that in that case this will be our last game, play so both sides have fun not so you can be a rule lawyer and make it fun for only yourself, making the game difficult for your opponent.

Model the extra bases as hats, it's a new Orkish style.

I was thinking more tumbling circus orks that can be put as either side top or bottom but top hat orks would be funny as well.

Yeah a house rule would fix this easy. It's when people go into a game with different ideas on how the rules work that this kind of thing becomes a problem.

The only reason there is a rule for hover tanks is the size of their stand compared to their hull and it's only purpose is to preemptive get rid of people that would say "hey you can't get into 1" of my base so you can't attack me in Close Combat hurrdurr".

And still people are rulebending everything to their will. TFG are really buzzkills. . .

 Zeshi wrote:
The only reason there is a rule for hover tanks is the size of their stand compared to their hull and it's only purpose is to preemptive get rid of people that would say "hey you can't get into 1" of my base so you can't attack me in Close Combat hurrdurr".

And still people are rulebending everything to their will. TFG are really buzzkills. . .

Following the rules is not rulebending. Next you'll tell me that Flamers autohitting flyers is "rulebending."

That's exactly the opposite of what I meant.

It deffo is tfg-ism.

It is also completely againt the points made in the designer's notes.

This kind of dickery is wholly unintended and therefore not within the rules laid out before the day one FAQ.

What the rules actually say by RAW, does not matter in loopholes; it is a game, not criminal law defense.a "skimmer" is not immune from melee due to the base/height because of a technicality. You can melee skimmers.

 Zeshi wrote:
The only reason there is a rule for hover tanks is the size of their stand compared to their hull and it's only purpose is to preemptive get rid of people that would say "hey you can't get into 1" of my base so you can't attack me in Close Combat hurrdurr".

And still people are rulebending everything to their will. TFG are really buzzkills. . .

How about you clarify how this is bending the rules instead of declaring you know for certainty exactly what the developers meant or wanted.

Overall, this just seems like a case of needing an FAQ. An FAQ that makes the developers intentions clear.

If the argument that my hull is too high for your base to hit it was intentional then would they have the rule that assault Marines with jump packs can hit flyers in close combat? I am not trying to sound mean / jerkish but it's the same idea isn't it?

Otherwise I could just modify all my skimmers so that they are 5" above the ground and instant safe.

It's a rules lawyer at work here. Is it RAW? Yes, you can make that argument. Is it RAI? No way your going to convince me that 40k rule makes intended for skimmers to never get into close combat.

I feel for OP, we don't have that issue in my group. At least it hasn't come up yet. Thankfully.

Edited for fixing autocorrect bull. What I get for responding on my phone. :p

Correct. My opponent insisted on measuring vertically from hull to base. Similar to when you stand on terrain which is 1.1" high and you try to attack from below. I understand the logic behind it but still it feels wrong to me.

Wow!

Just a suggestion.

Next time pick his model up, snap the flight stand off (they break quite easy), and put the model back on the table.

Problem solved.

When he takes his ball and goes home, you're not really out anything as you don't want to play against that type of person anyway.

Good Luck!